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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-06-2012, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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von willebrand disease

Just got a call back from my vet after having my 5 month Minka tested for von willebrand disease. I had her tested before having her spayed by the vets request, I grew up as a child with dobermans but this is my first. She came back as a carrier of von willebrand disease. I just talked to the vet over the phone and i'm at work so couldn't really talk for long. she gave me a number to a specialist surgeon to have her spayed. I guess my Questions is should I go to the Surgeon or maybe go to another vet. From what I've read a "Carrier" is not that dangerous of them bleeding. Am I wrong?
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-06-2012, 11:44 AM
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It's only the affected dogs, to my knowledge, that need to have special precautions taken.



No dog is at fault for being born into this world.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-06-2012, 12:02 PM
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No precautions need be taken to spay a vWD carrier. There's nothing to worry about with that status-MOST dobermans are vWD carriers.



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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-06-2012, 12:04 PM
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Go to another vet. Carrier means the dog has one gene out of two that codes for vonWillebrand's--the dog should not have a bleeding problem at all.

I'm assuming that by "tested" you mean a genetic test like VetGen, that actually tells you what the dog's genetics are. Other tests test the actual level of the vonWillebrand factor in the blood on the particular day they are run, and are not useful for determining the genetic vonWillebrand status of the dog at all, because that level can vary from day to day. Those tests can be run on the day of a planned surgery, however, to see if the dog's factor level is high enough for the surgery that day.

A carrier (identified by a genetic testing method like VetGen) should not have a problem with excessive bleeding during surgery--if the vet wishes to reassure himself about the bleeding potential of a particular dog, he can always have a bleeding time done the day of the surgery for the final go-ahead. I guess some vets are not up on the ins and outs of vonWillebrand's, but to me, the concepts or carrier, affected and clear are such easy ones to understand--in this day and age, seems like a vet should understand, and advise you appropriately.

You don't need a specialist unless your dog's bleeding time is abnormal--you shouldn't need any extra products like cryoprecipitate laid in "just in case" either. But if your vet feels uncomfortable doing surgery on your dog, you should go to another vet who is more knowledgeable about vonWillebrand's.
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-06-2012, 12:06 PM
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I think I'd look for someone who was more up on vwd. Carrier is not a problem. Affected is.
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-06-2012, 12:13 PM
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I would find out exactly what test the vet performed because I think the chances that it was the Elisa test and not a DNA test are pretty high. I don't think there are many vets who are doing the DNA test.

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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-06-2012, 12:17 PM
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Like others said, what test was done? Unless it was the gene test, cheek swab, DNA test, it is probably inaccurate. Your vet should know this and should know carriers typically are not a problem.

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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-06-2012, 05:00 PM
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I would assume that this was not the DNA test, but a clotting time test or ELISA test. If there was a problem with clotting time, there was. VWD status aside, dogs can have increased clotting time for all sorts of reasons, and I would take precautions if there was the possibility of bleeding for any reason. My carrier bleeds... i don't know why, but she does... were she to have surgery, I would make sure that blood products were available.

Five months of age is, to my way of thinking, awfully early to de-sex a dog. Maybe now is a good time to do some research on the advisability/inadvisability of such early spaying.
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-06-2012, 10:34 PM
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I don't know why your vet should have a problem spaying her.

I would recommend waiting to have her spayed. There has been a few studies that have proven it is better to get the dogs spayed/neutered at 18 months of age when the growth plates have closed. If they get spayed/neutered before then the growth plates won't close.
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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-16-2012, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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Well I got the paper work from my Vet last week and scheduled an appointment to see the surgeon this morning. The results say that my Minka is in 31% range. So this morning I met with the Specialized surgeon and he explained to me more about Von Willbrans and gave me a Quote to have her Spayed. Now I hope you are sitting down for this the Cost is between $1,922-$2,650. I love my dog but dang thats a lot of money for a spayed that usually cost around $250. I'm looking into getting another Quote
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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-16-2012, 10:23 AM
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If the result said 31% and that was the only test run, the test was not a genetic test but instead one that gives the amount of vonWillebrand factor actually circulating in the blood at the moment the test was run.
Has anyone given you the actual genetic vonWillebrand status of your dog? What was the surgeon's explanation for the low test result? There can be other reasons for an abnormal bleeding time or coag test, including testing error. If you are talking more than $1000 difference in the cost of a spay depending on your dog's status, it might be worth it to actually run a genetic test for vonWillebrand, or at least repeat a bleeding time test.
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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-16-2012, 11:34 AM
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My girl came back at 9% and the original quote for her surgery by a specialist was in that range. I found a vet recommended by a breeder on this forum that was familiar with Vwd and Dobermans. The procedure cost around $500.00 including post op care for a suture that popped. Keep looking and get other opinions. You also need the genetic test to really determine her status.
Good luck!
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-16-2012, 11:36 AM
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If you want to private message me I can give you the name and number of the vet I used. He is located on the East of end of Louisville. It looks like you are close to the Kentucky line, so a three hour drive may be worth the trip.
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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-16-2012, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leakaufman View Post
My girl came back at 9% and the original quote for her surgery by a specialist was in that range. I found a vet recommended by a breeder on this forum that was familiar with Vwd and Dobermans. The procedure cost around $500.00 including post op care for a suture that popped. Keep looking and get other opinions. You also need the genetic test to really determine her status.
Good luck!
Thanks I just ordered the Gentic test from VetGen. That is my first step. If you don't mind me asking were in Ky are you located? is that were the vet was? I live in northern Tn Just south of Franklin Ky
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-16-2012, 12:06 PM
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Just nuts they would charge that much for a spay. Don't let them do this. Very few Dobes who are affected (which u don't even know yet that she is), are actually clinically affected.
Get ur dna results and find a new vet.

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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-16-2012, 01:15 PM
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I live in Louisville. I will send you the vets name and number. The only problem with traveling is post op care. But, at the very least they might have someone in your area they can recommend. Also, another breeder in your state may see this and recommend someone. I will be glad to help in anyway!
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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-16-2012, 01:20 PM
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If your dog tests as dna affected, all you need to do prior to a spay or any other surgery is find a vet who stores frozen plasma at all times-not all of them do. Most of the ones who do are specialty practices or practices which offer 24 hour emergency care.

The majority of the price you were quoted (which is outrageous) is for them to order plasma specifically for your dog, charging you for it whether it's used or not. If you go to a practice that stores it at all times, you'd only be charged for what was actually used. In most cases, none would be used.

Beyond this, you really need to find a vet more up to date on doberman specific diseases.




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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-17-2012, 07:00 PM
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What Murreydobe says.

We were looking into arranging to neuter a former neighbor's Doberman who was VWD affected per the VetGen test.

One of the younger vets at the clinic we use was very concerned. The senior vet felt entirely comfortable with the plasma they always have on hand.

No additional charge unless the plasma was actually needed. As should be the case with any surgery, buccal mucosal bleeding time (time to clot test) was required just prior to the actual surgery.

In addition, if a dog really is clinically affected as well as genetically affected, DDAVP (or "desmopressin acetate") can be administered prior to the surgery to increase the amount of von Willebrand's factor temporarily.

So, if I were you, after I did my own VetGen swab and got results, I'd call around until I found a veterinary practice that a) has plasma on hand, and b) is familiar with the actual likely risks involved with a Doberman with the status your dog proves to have per the VetGen results. You may be able to reduce the number of phone calls needed by starting with practices that are AAHA certified.

While there is always the risk that your dog may prove to be the one that has insane false pregnancy issues, I have to say that Gracie's seasons really are not a huge deal (may God keep that true). The biggest thing is the nuisance of panties on inside, panties off outside, and that's not a big deal for us, as we don't have a pet door. As already mentioned, it appears there may be merit in waiting until a dog's growth plates have closed prior to spaying/neutering, unless there is a pressing reason not to wait. We do give Gracie chlorophyll while she's in season, and, whether or not that is the reason, we have not had any visitors/suitors. Still, we are very careful of her whereabouts and do not leave her unattended, even in our own yard, while she is in heat.

It should be good to be Dog.
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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-17-2012, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
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I would assume that this was not the DNA test, but a clotting time test or ELISA test. If there was a problem with clotting time, there was. VWD status aside, dogs can have increased clotting time for all sorts of reasons, and I would take precautions if there was the possibility of bleeding for any reason. My carrier bleeds... i don't know why, but she does... were she to have surgery, I would make sure that blood products were available.

Five months of age is, to my way of thinking, awfully early to de-sex a dog. Maybe now is a good time to do some research on the advisability/inadvisability of such early spaying.

I thought I was doing a good thing getting my dogs spayed early, around six months. But now my doberman, Greta, is incontinent because of it. Some dogs spayed before their first estrus develop incontinence. Luckily it can be controlled, in Greta's case with a DES (hormone) pill every third day, but it would have been better had we just waited.

On the other hand, you can almost eliminate the incidence of mammary gland cancer in dogs by spaying before the first heat.

Not sure how that DES pill effects this, though. But having the poor dog leaking big puddles of urine wherever she was laying wasn't acceptable, we had no real choice but to put her on the hormones. : ( Thank God it worked! But she's on them for life. We had her down to only one pill a week for a long time, but then she started leaking again and we got her stabilized at a pill every third day.

My other doberman, Hannah, was spayed just as early but did not develop incontinence.
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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-17-2012, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah6 View Post
I thought I was doing a good thing getting my dogs spayed early, around six months. But now my doberman, Greta, is incontinent because of it. Some dogs spayed before their first estrus develop incontinence. Luckily it can be controlled, in Greta's case with a DES (hormone) pill every third day, but it would have been better had we just waited.

On the other hand, you can almost eliminate the incidence of mammary gland cancer in dogs by spaying before the first heat.

Not sure how that DES pill effects this, though. But having the poor dog leaking big puddles of urine wherever she was laying wasn't acceptable, we had no real choice but to put her on the hormones. : ( Thank God it worked! But she's on them for life. We had her down to only one pill a week for a long time, but then she started leaking again and we got her stabilized at a pill every third day.

My other doberman, Hannah, was spayed just as early but did not develop incontinence.
I really think it all comes down to the roll of the dice, as far as which bitches develop spay incontinence and which don't. I've owned three who had the problem (out of a life filled with many spayed bitches here), and all three of them were spayed as mature adults.



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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-18-2012, 05:51 PM
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Sarge was a carrier-What a hard time I had and fights with vets about neutering. Carrier means thesy possess the gene and many vets do not get it. They feel they will bleed out which is total BS. Anyways long story short I had to have special percautions made and it cost me $700 for a simple neuter to avoid the arguing back and forth. I used VETGEN and had a special panelsent to cornell still to no avail. Some Vets will do a clotiig factor test and will go off the resluts of that --Best of luck! I feel your pain

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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-28-2012, 07:48 PM
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I am still reading as much as I can about this disease because from what my breeder told me was that both her parents tested negative. I was also told that I didnt ask the right question....meaning are either of them carriers. When I had Cira spayed I didnt know she had this and they had zero problems....when I just had her ACL repaired, they did a test regardless and I was told she was at 29% the day of the surgery. They said they do a gum test right before the surgery (while she/he is already sedated) where the cut their gum and time how long it takes to clot. If it is under 3 minutes that is normal. Her surgeon also had Cryoprecipitate (CRYO) on hand in case and they gave her (I hope I am saying this correctly ) an injection of clotting rich blood just in case so that for the 24 hours after the injection it would help her clot. I asked the Dr why no one noticed this issue when she was spayed or noticed she wasnt clotting well and her opinion was that during that type of procedure their is minimal bleeding. During the ACL surgery they cut bone and it is a lot more invasive. She had zero problems when she was spayed...and thank goodness no problems during the ACL surgery...soo I think as long as they are aware of the issue they can really be prepared. Cira's surgeon told me that is something I will always need to mention but with all these things that help she should lead a very normal life.

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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 07-28-2012, 11:02 PM
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luna, if both of her parents were DNA tested, and negative (clear), then your Cira would be considered "clear by parentage", and wouldn't need to be tested.


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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-07-2012, 07:02 PM
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Dog undergoing surgery as I write this--late von Willebrand lab result

My 7 y.o. male is undergoing a laparoscopic biopsy as I write this. He's been extensively treated for a grade 3 mast cell tumor: surgery, chemotherapy, numerous ultrasounds, etc. The last ultrasound concerned the oncologist, who recommended a biopsy, as the liver--a likely spot for metastasis--was mildly enlarged. So the procedure was started.
Because of a foulup on the outside lab's part, the von Willebrand results were not ready at the time of surgery. The surgeon and internist decided to proceed, as Soames has had other surgeries with no clotting issues and Pt/Ptt levels were normal.
He was put under anesthesia, immediately after which the outside lab came in with the von Willebrand results. His level was "low"--21, I believe. The internist did not mention "carrier", only that he had a low level.
The internist said that she would be comfortable going ahead with the procedure only if we agreed to let them give him Cryoprecipitate and a plasma-related medication to protect him from bleeding. We agreed, our knowledge limited to what we were told.
I just read this thread in the hospital lobby, and have a lot of questions for the internist when this is over. I apologize for the lack of precision in this posting. I'm don't know the relevant terms. And it happened fast.
We want to find out what precautions and/or tests are in order, given this test result. If this posting is too far buried in this thread to elicit responses, I'll start a new thread.
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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-07-2012, 07:23 PM
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It sounds more like an ELISSA test was done...which can be quite inaccurate. DNA is the only way to confirm vWd. However, the liver can effect clotting factors significantly and bleeding can be a complication to any invasive procedure done on a liver compromised dog.
I'm glad your vet took the precaution to try to control for that.
It would be great for Soames to have his own thread to let us know how he goes...sending good vibes for him and you.

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