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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-13-2010, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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Baytril and puppies

Just returned from the vet clinic. Maiya still has crystals in her urine. Also, her anal glands were full again and the fluid was a suspicious color. Vet verified there is an infection. She prescribed Baytril. She mentioned that I might hear that Baytril is not recommended for puppies but said in those studies, higher dosages were used. Vet said that she prescribes a lower dosage for puppies. (Better to knock it out now than to run into more serious bladder problems later).

I was satisfied with that explanation but when I checked online for possible side effects, found this on the baytril.com website: (Bold added by me).

"- Cartilage Lesions
Quinolones have been demonstrated to cause cartilage erosion in the joints of growing dogs. Histologically, vesicles in the articular cartilage are formed, which can progressively rupture and produce cartilaginous erosion. This observation is due to an early phase burst in oxidative metabolism and to disturbances in the electrolyte (Mg ++) household of immature chondrocytes. Experimental and clinical findings suggest that bearing of weight by joints may be important in the pathogenesis of these lesions (4).
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In animals older than 6 weeks, lesions occurred to a certain extent, depending on dosage and duration of treatment. As it is not possible to exactly determine the age up until which the drug is to be considered safe in puppies, all dogs under 12 months (18 months in giant breeds) were excluded from treatment as a matter of precaution (2). "

Also found a thread on DT where it was mentioned that Baytril shouldn't be given to puppies. Does anyone know if it is okay with a lower dosage?
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-13-2010, 05:06 PM
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Did the vet do C&S on either sample, to verify which ab was the appropriate one to use?

I hope some of our vets or techs chime in, but I personally am very much not a fan of Baytril for growing animals, and would be seeking another option if it were my dog.




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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-13-2010, 07:20 PM
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As RFR asked, did they do a culture? I know that we avoid Baytril in patients under 1 year unless it's the only antiobiotic that will kill that particular bug. Baytril is usually our antiobiotic of choice for bladder issues in older animals, but there's almost always another option. I'd definitely want a culture in a young dog.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-13-2010, 09:22 PM
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I would bet that the Baytril was prescribed at least in part because of the suspicious fluid that was found in the anal sacs. I just had this conversation today with the vet who most often treats my dogs (I work at a vet clinic)--he said, as he was figuring out the dosage for my dog who has something going on with one anal sac--that it's hard to find an antibiotic that is effective for anal sac infections and that Baytril is virtually the only thing that actually works most of the time.

Our vets also avoid giving Baytril to puppies under a year but sometimes it's the most likely thing to use.

And no, the dog that I'm treating is not a puppy (he's 7) and is the only Doberman I've ever owned that ever had any sort of a problem with ag's. It's not a common problem with Dobes (but ask me about Cavaliers, Pugs and Chihuahuas--chronic--all of them).
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-13-2010, 09:24 PM
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What brand of dog food do you feed her?
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-14-2010, 01:02 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you for all your responses.

At today's appt., a urinalysis and cytology was done.

First urinalysis almost 1 month ago - bacteria no crystals. Course of Amoxicillin.
2nd urinalysis - no bacteria. Crystals.
Today. crystals.

I've been feeding her Nature's Variety Prairie (which the breeder fed her). Have been slowly introducing Solid Gold Wolf Cub. She is now eating about half Prairie/half SG. She also gets green beans and sweet potatoes, yogurt and cottage cheese. Veggies because her anal gland issues and the need for more fiber. I haven't been giving her sweet potatoes for the last week based on recommendations on this forum.

I'm confused now about the right course of action. Wondering if I should call the clinic and ask for a different antibiotic, more tests or ? Get a 2nd opinion from a different vet? btw. I noticed on another web site (that sells Baytril and other dog meds) - there was also a recommendation not to use Baytril for puppies.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-14-2010, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R2reddobes View Post

...I've been feeding her Nature's Variety Prairie (which the breeder fed her)....

I don't know if there is a connection, but my boy was diagnosed as having crystals in his urine. My vet asked me if I had changed his diet and I said yes. For the prior 6 months I had placed him on Natures Variety. He asked me to go back to his old food which was California Natural. After a few weeks back on his old food, we retested him and found no more crystals in his urine. That was over 1 1/2 years ago and every urine test since has been negative. One day I was speaking to a breeder who had a litter this past Spring. I shared the story with her. She told me that her dog was also diagnosed with crystals in the urine. She was feeding Nature's Variety also. My vet said that crystals can lead to infections because they can irritate the urinary tract. I recommend you switch your dog's food.

Last edited by Sage; 09-14-2010 at 03:08 AM.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-14-2010, 04:43 PM
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I had our dogs, Dobes and Shepherds on Nature's Variety and always had troubles with crystals in the urine when they were puppies. Have switched over to Taste of the Wild Salmon and they are doing well on that. I had always been told NO Baytril for puppies under 12 months, my puppies were put on Cephalexin and the urinary tract problems cleared up, I also put them on cranberry capsules. Good luck!
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-14-2010, 05:57 PM
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No Baytril in puppies, get a second opinion. I would also find out what type of crystals they are and change food. Why type of urinalysis did they do? Did they do it in house or send it out to the lab. Our protical would on the second to send it out if the inhouse was positive.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-14-2010, 07:40 PM
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A urinalysis is NOT a culture. For a culture, you must get a sample using a sterile method (usually a cystocentesis) and then grow it out for at least 3 days. Most clinics send these out to a lab as it's a pain to do in-house. I'd want one even if they didn't see bacteria in-house because they are sometimes hard to see. Also, as others have asked, what kind of crystals were they? Her diet may need to be changed depending on what kind they are.

Even if the Baytril was prescribed more for the anal gland issue, I'd want to be positive that there wasn't any other antibiotic that would do the job.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 12:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperdog View Post
A urinalysis is NOT a culture. For a culture, you must get a sample using a sterile method (usually a cystocentesis) and then grow it out for at least 3 days. Most clinics send these out to a lab as it's a pain to do in-house. I'd want one even if they didn't see bacteria in-house because they are sometimes hard to see. Also, as others have asked, what kind of crystals were they? Her diet may need to be changed depending on what kind they are.

Even if the Baytril was prescribed more for the anal gland issue, I'd want to be positive that there wasn't any other antibiotic that would do the job.
2nd urinalysis: triple phosphate crystals.

Visited a different vet clinic tonight. Cystocentesis was done and sample is being sent to a lab.

New vet (and Maiya's breeder) also said Maiya should not be given Baytril.
Thanks again everyone for all your suggestions.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 01:48 PM
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Props to you, R2reddobes, for being an advocate for her.




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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 06:38 PM
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Spinoff of the Baytril thread--Cipro for puppies?

I didn't want to hijack the Baytril puppy thread, but my situation is fairly similar. Liberty had a BAD staph outbreak that developed roughly a month ago after getting some vaccination boosters, and she was given 2 weeks of Cephalexin to help clear things up. While it did help somewhat, she was still developing new bumps even while on the antibiotic.

On this past Saturday when she had her checkup, the vet decided to put her on 500mg Cipro 2x daily. I know that Cipro is in the same family as Baytril and that it is also not recommended for puppies. My question is if anyone knows if the cartilage issues are also the reason it isn't supposed to be given to pups? If so, are the side effects as common/severe as young dogs that have been given Baytril?

Liberty has been fairly mellow around the house, but she doesn't have diarrhea, doesn't seem to be in any pain or discomfort, is eating regularly (albeit a bit less than usual), and seems to be generally happy overall. Her bumps have vanished completely since Saturday morning (when she had her first dose of Cipro). I'm supposed to continue the drug for 2 weeks, but I am so anxious about potentially harming her joints.

To any of you who are knowledgeable on the subject, I know that an alternative to Cipro would be Clindamycin. The vet even mentioned both on Saturday, and I asked which she thought would be the better choice. She chose the Cipro. I just can't seem to wrap my head around why. Is Cipro better at clearing up skin issues than Clindamycin? Is it worth the added risk? I think >I< would be more comfortable giving Liberty the Clin, but am I just overreacting? I know she is doing well on the Cipro, and I don't want the vet to think I'm second guessing her, but the last thing I want is for my Doberman to be even MORE prone to developing joint difficulties.

Any input is appreciated. I called the vet to talk to her, and I should hear back from her tomorrow.

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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 06:39 PM
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Oh crap. I meant to make a new thread and thought I did. If a mod sees this, would it be possible to split my post into a new thread? If not, I apologize, reddobes, for hijacking your thread.

Can you tell I'm tired and a bit frazzled? Heh.

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 07:08 PM
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R2reddobes - Sounds like you're on the right path with your girl. Hopefully the culture will give you a better alternative antibiotic. Also, the triple phosphate crystals (also known as struvite crystals) and commonly found in the urine of dogs with a bladder infection. The bacteria present cause the urine to be more alkaline and the crystals form. Usually, eliminating the infection eliminates the crystals so hopefully you won't have to worry about her diet after the infection is cleared up.

Zephyr - Yes, Cipro can have the same effects on cartilage as Baytril in puppies, most commonly in those under 28 weeks old. If it were my dog, I'd probably want the Clindamycin instead. I'd talk to your vet again just to clarify why she prefers the Cipro. We use a lot of Clindamycin at work, but since we're doing surgery, we use it mostly for bone not skin. It's been a while since I've worked for a general vet so I haven't dealt with skin issues in a while.
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 07:01 PM
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Is Baytril safe for adult Dobermans and does it have any side effects that an owner should be concerned about? Stomach upset, etc?

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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 08:07 PM
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I've given it to my first Dobe for prostate infections and to Flirt for her spay pyo. BOth were on several courses of treatment and were fine.

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