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post #1 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 06:52 AM Thread Starter
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DCM Information?

Please share all websites, studies, vitamin supplements, anything you can about DCM.

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post #2 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 07:27 AM
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The one caution I would open is that you will get 20 opinions on everything from 20 different people. In the end, the one person you really need to be taking advice from is going to be your cardiologist - For *most* supplements, aside from anecdotal evidence from this and that person, we have no evidence that any of them do any help in the doberman form of DCM. And each drug choice needs to be tailored to the individual dog (especially since the ECG I saw of your dog is not typical, so the anti-arrhythmic may be different). All people can tell you is what their dogs had and were put on, but that doesn't include valuable info such as what the actual diagnosis was, what the measurements were, what the ECG was, etc... I've read about dogs on here that according to other cardiologists, wouldn't be classified with DCM period, but their owners state they have it. Other dogs that I would absolutely have on meds, and their cardiologists don't have them on it (though in many instances, I'm not sure they are actually seeing cardiologists). What I would do is take any information you get from people and present it to the cardiologist - nothing should be done without their knowledge and their consent.

I know this is such a scary time, and I wish you guys weren't going through it. Remember he doesn't feel sick, and enjoy the time you have with him, be it 5 hours, 5 weeks, 5 months, or 5 years. It's NEVER long enough.


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post #3 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 07:40 AM
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Thanks for always being willing to offer advice Kim. And Luvbirds, if you need to talk or want to talk, please feel free to PM me. I will be happy to tell you what I learn about Omar's condition after I get his holter done and have the cardiologist in Birmingham review his echo and holter results and tell you what treatment plan she lays out for him and any other information she give me. We can get them through this. And we can get through this ourselves. We have all of DT here to support us. Be strong.
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post #4 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 07:54 AM
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I have found the key to longer life is to start them on meds in the occult stage BEFORE CHF. And always use a Cardio vet.Get checked every 2-3mths.
And supplements.. CoQ10-100mg, 1000mg fish oils.
Its a very scary thing for anyof us to go through But you can get more time and enjoy every min.
Oh and No running the dog.JmHo
Good Luck


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post #5 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 08:45 AM
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Hi Carol,

I do agree with Kim on running everything by your Cardiologist. While there might not be actual evidence that supplements or diet could help, I still would seek out a Holistic vet to help in that area, but again then running it past the Cardiologist.

My heart just breaks for you, words cannot express how bad I feel for you guys.

Robin

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post #6 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 08:54 AM
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My breeder recommended chelated magnesium at 200mg daily. It's tough to find, but much more bioavailable. When I talked to Wonder's cardiologist about his supplements, he said that one was the only one proven to really do anything with a DCM dog. Again, ask your cardio. The other drugs in the cocktail were taurine (from a bernese mountain dog study) at 500mg twice daily, GOOD CoQ10 at 45mg twice daily (or 3 pills at 30mg, dose split), and 1000mg of fish oil daily. This is what we're on right now, and W is doing well. He'll have his follow up holter in april.

I get all my supplements from NOW vitamins, it's what many of the health food nuts have recommended to me as pure, potent, and bioavailable.

Here is the coq-10 in 30mg, give two with breakfast, one with dinner

Here is the magnesium chelate, give two a day

Here is the taurine, give 2 a day

The fish oil can be picked up virtually anywhere, someone may have a better suggestion.
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post #7 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 01:20 PM
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Good medicine read
Canine Heart Failure - WSAVA 2007 Congress

These are some other links I had booked marked when I was reading up for Kheper

Blackwells Five-Minute Veterinary ... - Google Books

The veterinary ICU book - Google Books

Virtual Cath Lab

Polymorphic ventricular tachycardia - definition of Polymorphic ventricular tachycardia in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

I'll check on my other computer to see if I have more.

Magnesium can mix with some heart meds, but this was some key points I gathered from reading up. Vit C is a ? mark too. There is are questions with it.

# Potassium
# Magnesium
# Feed HIGH PROTEIN
# keep dog ideal weight so moderate fat
# L-Carnitine - helps stop cells in the heart muscle from deteriorating and aids in heart function - it is fond in animal proteins, red meats (heavy cooking can loss this nutrients) supplements can be giving 500mg per 20lb
# Tarine - found in most animal proteins, cooking can destroy it - cook meat lightly or get supplement 500mb per 50lb
# CoQ10 is an enzyme that helps sport hearth heath and lower blood pressure. it is also considered antioxidant in nature. 1mg per pound of body weight.
# Fish body oil or salmon oil contains omega 3 fatty acids
# Give Vitamin E with the fish oil
# Vitamin B Complex and Vitamin C help the heart - vit c is said to synthesize carnitine.
# Do no restrict sodium unless your vet says to. This is mostly for the later stages of heart disease, or in case of certain medications.

I put this quick page together Kheper's litter mates. I need to update it. He is handling his Carvedilol dose wonderfully! He is up to 25mg twice a day, his heart rate is around 72bmp. No change in personality or tiredness
Trying to understand Dilated Cardiomyopathy & What to do to try and prolong life.

The of course the thread on here https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman...me-holter.html They talk about supplements here as well.

If there are VT runs during exercise, my cardiologist said it would be restricted, but Kheper is not there yet. The holter test results and when his VPC's occured were very random, so no restrictions. Run everything past them. I also called around to some of the other Vet Universities to double check what I had Kheper on. The cardiologist were very helpful. Ours is fairly young, but she ran everything past her mentor, who was heavily involved in whippet heart studies. So far so good. Purdue has some good ones, they may take a little bit to call back, but it is converting to talk with them.

I also talked with some councilors at U of I in Urbana. The one lady was very helpful. It was so hard taking in the shock, I even when back on medication. One of the best things she told me was to make sure to keep my priorities straight. My priority was not be sad and let Kheper see me upset. My top priority is to make sure he is enjoying ever minute of his life. Every time I start to cry, or feel lost, I try to think this is NOT a priority right now. His quality of life is! I want him to be happy at all times.

Last edited by renee; 12-11-2009 at 01:36 PM.
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post #8 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doberkim View Post
What I would do is take any information you get from people and present it to the cardiologist - nothing should be done without their knowledge and their consent.
This needs to be repeated, oh, 100 times or so!



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post #9 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 01:36 PM
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VetGo Cardiology

This is a good site-look under acquired heart disease.



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post #10 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 01:44 PM
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Agreed with run everything past your cardiologist first......


Vetriscience makes a great supplement that is called 'Cardiostrength'. It includes Coenzyme Q10, magnesium, EPA and other beneficial supplements.


Cardio-Strength for dogs and cats, heart support formula, vitamins and supplements

Jessica Wilcock, DVM
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post #11 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 01:47 PM
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I know cardiologists may say to limit/restrict exercise severely....but I think that is a choice for each person to make. In my case, I still took my girl to the barn to mill about doing chores, let her scamper around, but did not take her actively running alongside the horses as in the past. She had DCM, with CHF pretty well set in at diagnosis. We knew she was living on borrowed time at that point.

Leash walking or confinement to the house was suggested...but I rejected that because my girl had always gone with me on errands, doing barn chores, etc and the loss of lifestyle alone would have been very tough on her. For me, having her go a bit sooner due to some exercise was a choice I knew I could live with. She really didn't feel well enough on some days to do much anyway. My choice in this was based on the fact that I felt I couldn't take everything away from her.

Oh, Carol...I'm just sick at heart with your news. Hugs on this thread, too.
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post #12 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talentdobe View Post
Vetriscience makes a great supplement that is called 'Cardiostrength'. It includes Coenzyme Q10, magnesium, EPA and other beneficial supplements.


Cardio-Strength for dogs and cats, heart support formula, vitamins and supplements
Standard Process also makes a "Cardiac Support" supplement that contains L-carnitine and hawthorne.



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DOB 2/17/07, red/rust, male neutered Doberman
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post #13 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellenm View Post
I know cardiologists may say to limit/restrict exercise severely....but I think that is a choice for each person to make. In my case, I still took my girl to the barn to mill about doing chores, let her scamper around, but did not take her actively running alongside the horses as in the past. She had DCM, with CHF pretty well set in at diagnosis. We knew she was living on borrowed time at that point.

Leash walking or confinement to the house was suggested...but I rejected that because my girl had always gone with me on errands, doing barn chores, etc and the loss of lifestyle alone would have been very tough on her. For me, having her go a bit sooner due to some exercise was a choice I knew I could live with. She really didn't feel well enough on some days to do much anyway. My choice in this was based on the fact that I felt I couldn't take everything away from her.

Oh, Carol...I'm just sick at heart with your news. Hugs on this thread, too.
I agree with Ellen 1000% about this! I just wasn't going to stop one single moment of joy from their lives! Better they go out in a blaze of glory doing something they love than spend what time they have trapped in a bubble.

So my philosophy always was let them select their own activity level, and I've never regretted that for a single minute.



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post #14 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 02:36 PM
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Carol, here is an article about DCM in general:

Quote:
DCM In Doberman Pinschers: Lessons Learned In The First Decade Of Study
ACVIM 2002
Michael O'Grady, DVM, MS, DACVIM
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
18271767
PREVALENCE

Dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) continues to be the second most commonly encountered cause of acquired congestive heart failure in the dog. In addition, DCM is observed much more commonly in large breed dogs, in fact DCM is the most common cause of heart failure in the large breed dog. Of all large breed dogs, the Doberman Pinscher is afflicted with DCM more than any other breed in North America. In fact, in the COVE Trial, more Dobermans were observed with DCM than dogs of all other breeds combined.

Ongoing work at the University of Guelph is studying the natural history of DCM in the Doberman breed. To this end symptom free Dobermans are examined by physical examination, echocardiography, and electrocardiography once yearly. These studies have demonstrated that the likelihood of developing DCM in an asymptomatic Doberman is at least 41% for males and 31% for females. These studies have demonstrated that Dobermans progress through three phases on route to congestive heart failure (CHF) and death. The first phase is characterized by a morphologically and electrically normal heart in a symptom free Doberman. The second phase is characterized by evidence of morphologic (enlargement) or electrical (ventricular ectopy) derangement in an otherwise symptom free Doberman. This latter phase has been termed occult DCM. The third and final phase of heart disease is heralded by the onset of symptoms of respiratory embarrassment due to the presence of pulmonary edema, exercise intolerance due to reduced forward flow, and or syncope due to frequent ventricular ectopy. This phase has been termed overt DCM.

The so-called occult DCM phase has been of particular interest to us. This period of derangement prior to the onset of symptoms appears to last up to 4 years. We have been impressed with the lack of evidence of exercise intolerance in dogs with advanced systolic dysfunction in the occult phase of DCM. The presence of ventricular ectopy is more commonly encountered than evidence of ventricular enlargement, particularly in the very early stages of occult DCM. The age range for Dobermans we have diagnosed with occult DCM is 2 to 12 years. Although we have previously said that even the presence of 1 VPC on a 3 to 6-minute rhythm strip in a symptom free Doberman is strong evidence of occult DCM, we have now encountered several dogs with 1 to 2 VPCs per minute that never did go onto develop CHF or sudden death.

Whereas ACE inhibitor therapy administered to dogs with chronic mitral valve insufficiency during the symptom free period of their disease has failed to delay the progression to CHF, ACE inhibitors have been demonstrated to delay the progression of occult DCM to overt DCM in Dobermans by approximately one year. Furthermore, this effect is almost exclusive to the male gender. It still remains unclear why female Dobermans would not see a similar benefit.

SUDDEN DEATH

Sudden death refers to unexpected death. We defined sudden death as unexpected death that occurred either during sleep in the absence of respiratory distress or within one hour of appearing stable whether in CHF or not. Sudden death occurred in 14% of our dogs enrolled and 38% of all cases of DCM. Sudden death occurred in 31% of symptom free Dobermans as the first symptom of DCM. Both genders were equally likely to manifest sudden death as the first symptom of DCM. Sudden death was observed to occur more commonly before the onset of CHF than after. Females were almost twice as likely to develop sudden death before the onset of CHF as opposed to after the onset of CHF. Males however were observed to manifest sudden death with equal frequency before and after the onset of CHF. In our dogs there is very rarely any observed episodes of syncope prior to the manifestation of sudden death.

Dogs that met our criteria for ventricular ectopy (> 1PVC/min) or left ventricular systolic enlargement (> 42 mm at end systole by M mode) were more likely to manifest sudden death as the first symptom of overt DCM than CHF. Whereas dogs that met our criteria for left ventricular enlargement at end diastole (> 49 mm on M mode) were more likely to manifest CHF than sudden death as the first symptom of overt DCM.

THE HOLTER RECORDING

We presume that most cases of sudden death occur due to the development of ventricular fibrillation. Although Dr. Calvert has observed bradycardia associated with syncope in several Dobermans, tachycardia is likely the more common substrate that precedes sudden death. Ventricular fibrillation likely follows a period of time characterized by the occurrence of both isolated VPCs and paroxysms of ventricular tachycardia.

Studies at the University of Guelph are examining the natural history of ventricular ectopy in symptom free Dobermans. We are attempting to enroll Dobermans throughout the globe that are symptom free and re-Holter these dogs once yearly. Our objective is to determine predictors of sudden death in symptom free Dobermans by the examination of the Holter recording. About 130,000 beats are detected on a 24-hour recording of a Doberman. We recently reviewed Holter recordings from 128 symptom free Dobermans (73 from Canada, 55 from US). 86 dogs had evidence of ventricular ectopy, 42 did not. The frequency of ventricular ectopic beats ranged from 0 to 1556/hr with a median of 0.09/hr. VPCs were significantly more likely to occur in older dogs than younger dogs. However there was no relation between the frequency of VPCs and the age of the dog for dogs with VPCs. Continued work at the University of Guelph is evaluating the role of antiarrhythmics such as sotalol to reduce the risk of sudden death in Dobermans at risk based on Holter results.

Work by Dr. Calvert indicated that 48% of symptom free Dobermans without echocardiographic evidence of occult DCM had no VPCs on 24-hour Holter. As the frequency of VPCs increased in a group of symptom free Dobermans and possessing normal echocardiographic studies the likelihood of developing DCM increased.

The Holter examination may be the most expedient method of screening symptom free Dobermans for DCM.

CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE STATE

The average survival for Dobermans diagnosed with CHF is 80 to 90 days with diuretics and ACE inhibitors. Dr. Calvert reports a mean of 11 weeks with a median of 7.5 weeks for Dobermans with left sided CHF. Note that the average survival for non-Doberman breeds that develop CHF due to DCM is considerably long, 280 days. The one-year mortality rate for Dobermans with CHF is 95%. Dogs that develop atrial fibrillation or ascites in addition to pulmonary edema have a poorer prognosis, mean survival of 4-6 weeks with a median of 3 weeks. We have observed that 30-40% of Dobermans can be expected to develop atrial fibrillation.

Newer therapies for DCM in the Doberman have been evaluated. Dr. Sonya Gordon evaluated the role of VDD pacing to extend survival in Dobermans with CHF. She demonstrated that Dobermans with DCM and CHF failure were identical to a subset of people with systolic failure in that they failed to respond to dual chamber pacing. We also assessed the role of a neutral endopeptidase inhibitor (inhibited the degradation of the hormone ANP) to extend survival in Dobermans with CHF. Preliminary results suggested no benefit. Current studies at the University of Guelph are evaluating the efficacy of pimobendan and spironolactone to reduce morbidity and extend survival in Dobermans with CHF due to DCM. Too few dogs have been enrolled with spironolactone to assess its efficacy. However, preliminary evidence with pimobendan suggests that pimobendan will increase survival and reduce morbidity in Dobermans with DCM. We are particularly impressed with the ability of pimobendan to increase appetite and energy level of even the most depressed dogs. However, pimobendan may increase the risk of developing atrial fibrillation and ventricular ectopy. Continuing studies will shed light on this area.

Others are assessing the role of carvedilol, a third generation beta adrenergic blocking agent. Based on work in people there is every reason to believe that carvedilol and other beta blockers will increase survival in all dogs with DCM. Currently we are examining the ability of carvedilol to delay the progression to overt DCM in Dobermans with occult DCM. These dogs are receiving benazepril in addition to carvedilol. 20 dogs are enrolled to date in this trial.

FUTURE STUDIES:

Further work on the role of pharmacotherapy for both the occult stage and CHF stage of DCM is ongoing. The role of pimobendan, spironolactone, and carvedilol in particular will be assessed. The role of antiarrhythmic therapy to reduce the incidence of sudden death, both before the onset of CHF and after the onset of CHF, will be assessed. Both sotalol and amiodarone will be studied in these areas.

Continued diagnostic studies will help us identify dogs earlier in the occult stage of DCM to help assess earlier therapy. Continued work with Holter recordings with respect to the presence and complexity of VPCs and indices of heart rate variability will be assessed to predict risk of sudden death and overt DCM. Work with newer echocardiographic indices of diastolic function and hormonal assays will stratify dogs with the 3 stages of DCM and predict the risk of sudden death or CHF and predict therapeutic responders from non-responders.

Speaker Information
(click the speaker's name to view other papers and abstracts submitted by this speaker)
Michael R. O'Grady, DVM, MS, DACVIM
Clinical Studies, University of Guelph
Ontario Veterinary College
Guelph, ONT N1G 2W1
CANADA



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post #15 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 02:59 PM
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I know cardiologists may say to limit/restrict exercise severely....but I think that is a choice for each person to make. In my case, I still took my girl to the barn to mill about doing chores, let her scamper around, but did not take her actively running alongside the horses as in the past. She had DCM, with CHF pretty well set in at diagnosis. We knew she was living on borrowed time at that point.

Leash walking or confinement to the house was suggested...but I rejected that because my girl had always gone with me on errands, doing barn chores, etc and the loss of lifestyle alone would have been very tough on her. For me, having her go a bit sooner due to some exercise was a choice I knew I could live with. She really didn't feel well enough on some days to do much anyway. My choice in this was based on the fact that I felt I couldn't take everything away from her.

Oh, Carol...I'm just sick at heart with your news. Hugs on this thread, too.

Just adding in my 1000% agreement with this, as well.


I still let Ez come to the barn, go on errands, be along every single time he showed me he wanted that.

He got to set the pace and the time limits and I really tried hard to be very observant of when he was getting tired.

But I believe psychologically, this is just every bit as important to them as the physical treatments and interventions.




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post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 04:09 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with Ellen 1000% about this! I just wasn't going to stop one single moment of joy from their lives! Better they go out in a blaze of glory doing something they love than spend what time they have trapped in a bubble.

So my philosophy always was let them select their own activity level, and I've never regretted that for a single minute.
The Cardiologist said....I shouldn't limit him in anyway, it isn't going to stop what is happening, he lives to hike everyday. She also said....she didn't think that we could survive him with out him getting his exercise :p She saw him in *real* Petey mode, two days of no runs, after the tests he was out of his mind in the examination room, kept leaping on the door and telling me....GET ME OUT OF HERE BEFORE THEY DO SOMETHING ELSE TO ME! I'm sobbing and he's acting like he was a bull moose in full rut. At least I can smile already, he is a character and a half, and I'd rather have had him in my life for a short time then not at all. I hope he has his piss/vinegar spunky self right to the end! It is what makes him PETEY!

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post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 04:14 PM
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I'm trying to read everything I can on this awful disease. is it possible to have a normal holter and then 6 months later after another holter it reports a bad one? is it a progressive disease or can it happen almost overnight?

Thanks everyone.

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post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 04:41 PM
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I'm trying to read everything I can on this awful disease. is it possible to have a normal holter and then 6 months later after another holter it reports a bad one? is it a progressive disease or can it happen almost overnight?

Thanks everyone.
It's possible to have a normal holter and have the dog drop dead from sudden death dcm within a matter of days. A holter is only a snapshot of a moment in time.

Every dog is different..and this disease affects each dog differently. The only constant is that it will kill them-some sooner, some later.



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post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 06:34 PM
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the vetriscience supplement is the only one I used, for the most part aside from fish oils.

With all the terrible news lately, including Beth and J at Long Beach, I'm going to holter my guys next week. Echos are in February.


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post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-11-2009, 07:42 PM
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The Cardiologist said....I shouldn't limit him in anyway, it isn't going to stop what is happening, he lives to hike everyday. She also said....she didn't think that we could survive him with out him getting his exercise :p She saw him in *real* Petey mode, two days of no runs, after the tests he was out of his mind in the examination room, kept leaping on the door and telling me....GET ME OUT OF HERE BEFORE THEY DO SOMETHING ELSE TO ME! I'm sobbing and he's acting like he was a bull moose in full rut. At least I can smile already, he is a character and a half, and I'd rather have had him in my life for a short time then not at all. I hope he has his piss/vinegar spunky self right to the end! It is what makes him PETEY!

Snif. Love your bull moose boy.




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post #21 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-12-2009, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Luvbirds View Post
The Cardiologist said....I shouldn't limit him in anyway, it isn't going to stop what is happening, he lives to hike everyday. She also said....she didn't think that we could survive him with out him getting his exercise :p She saw him in *real* Petey mode, two days of no runs, after the tests he was out of his mind in the examination room, kept leaping on the door and telling me....GET ME OUT OF HERE BEFORE THEY DO SOMETHING ELSE TO ME! I'm sobbing and he's acting like he was a bull moose in full rut. At least I can smile already, he is a character and a half, and I'd rather have had him in my life for a short time then not at all. I hope he has his piss/vinegar spunky self right to the end! It is what makes him PETEY!
Excellent advice. Dogs live in the moment and his moment is too be with you and do what you always have done. I pray you have more time than anyone would have even thought possible.
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post #22 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-12-2009, 08:25 AM
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The Cardiologist said....I shouldn't limit him in anyway, it isn't going to stop what is happening, he lives to hike everyday. She also said....she didn't think that we could survive him with out him getting his exercise :p She saw him in *real* Petey mode, two days of no runs, after the tests he was out of his mind in the examination room, kept leaping on the door and telling me....GET ME OUT OF HERE BEFORE THEY DO SOMETHING ELSE TO ME! I'm sobbing and he's acting like he was a bull moose in full rut. At least I can smile already, he is a character and a half, and I'd rather have had him in my life for a short time then not at all. I hope he has his piss/vinegar spunky self right to the end! It is what makes him PETEY!
You go Petey, give this [email protected]$^%! disease HELL.

Have a great day, Sheila-Quentin, Maggie Mae, Peaches and Zasha

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post #23 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-12-2009, 08:55 AM
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This is just all so disturbing. Why has this disease gotten so out of control with our precious dobermans?
Believe me, I'm not making excuses, but my 1st doberman, a BYB, lived almost 15 years! My father had a BYB dobe for 13 yrs.!
No health testing ever, because they were always healthy! Were we just lucky? Was this disease not as prevalent in the '70's & '80's?

I've had a wide variety of breeds all my life & as far as I'm concerned the doberman is just.... different. They get inside your soul.

My question is this: Can non-symptomatic dobermans take any of these supplements mentioned prophylactically?
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post #24 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-12-2009, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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This is just all so disturbing. Why has this disease gotten so out of control with our precious dobermans?
Believe me, I'm not making excuses, but my 1st doberman, a BYB, lived almost 15 years! My father had a BYB dobe for 13 yrs.!
No health testing ever, because they were always healthy! Were we just lucky? Was this disease not as prevalent in the '70's & '80's?

I've had a wide variety of breeds all my life & as far as I'm concerned the doberman is just.... different. They get inside your soul.

My question is this: Can non-symptomatic dobermans take any of these supplements mentioned prophylactically?
Petey has 3 Grand Parents who are alive and ten years old right now....and the other was PTS at over ten, from Wobblers. Petey's sire died last December at 7 from bad antibiotics....not sure if I believe that now. If the gene is there...it can come out generations later, Unfortunately for Petey he drew the short straw.

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post #25 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-12-2009, 10:15 AM
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Petey has 3 Grand Parents who are alive and ten years old right now....and the other was PTS at over ten, from Wobblers. Petey's sire died last December at 7 from bad antibiotics....not sure if I believe that now. If the gene is there...it can come out generations later, Unfortunately for Petey he drew the short straw.
I do think that anyone who breeds and sells a puppy to another person should be morally obligated to fully explain an undiagnosed death through vet reports. IMO, bad antibiotics, or other weird things need much further explanations from a breeder if they want to be considered ethical. DCM can happen anytime to anyone and I respect those who have been honest. Actually some have even greater imaginations at work than the bad anitibiotics. While it could be true it does warrant some detailed explaining from an outside party, like a necropsy report.

Again, my heart goes out to you Carol, this is so unfair.

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