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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 01:38 AM Thread Starter
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Question Decoding health testing results

Hello!
I am trying to find a good American show line Doberman breeder, but it has really been a task. I have not shown or personally owned Doberman’s before, so I’ve found it to be very difficult to find a breeder willing to let me purchase a puppy from them. I know that I should be looking for all the genetic testing and such. When I get on Dobequest and I look at test results, the information really confuses me. It’s a lot of numbers and symbols that I am not familiar with. Would someone mind interpreting a bitch’s results I’m looking at getting a puppy from and telling me their personal opinion on buying a puppy from her? She has the echo + holter, vWD, Thyroid, and OFA tests done.
Dobequestog Profile Page
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1969199
I have no idea how to interpret the testing. Per the OFA website, she is a DCM1 carrier and is hetero-positive, what does that mean? The holter results are <10.. I am also unsure what that means. She’s also a vWD carrier.. is that bad? Then she would just need to be paired with a neg male, correct? She has been tested for an Advanced Cardiac twice, and the same results are both times, “NORMAL AO/CONG, AUSC/ECHO/HOLTER”, does that just mean normal cardiac results? It also says she was tested for her WAE, but the results are unknown.
Thank you so much in advance for any response or input!!
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 08:57 AM
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Hi and welcome to DT. You should contact the breeder directly and ask for health test results. If you are after a show line puppy this is probably not the breeder to talk to. Why are breeders not keen to let you purchase a puppy from them? Is it something about your living situation or just your lack of previous doberman ownership?
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfg701 View Post
Hello!
I am trying to find a good American show line Doberman breeder, but it has really been a task. I have not shown or personally owned Doberman’s before, so I’ve found it to be very difficult to find a breeder willing to let me purchase a puppy from them. I know that I should be looking for all the genetic testing and such. When I get on Dobequest and I look at test results, the information really confuses me. It’s a lot of numbers and symbols that I am not familiar with. Would someone mind interpreting a bitch’s results I’m looking at getting a puppy from and telling me their personal opinion on buying a puppy from her? She has the echo + holter, vWD, Thyroid, and OFA tests done.
Dobequestog Profile Page
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1969199
I have no idea how to interpret the testing. Per the OFA website, she is a DCM1 carrier and is hetero-positive, what does that mean? The holter results are <10.. I am also unsure what that means. She’s also a vWD carrier.. is that bad? Then she would just need to be paired with a neg male, correct? She has been tested for an Advanced Cardiac twice, and the same results are both times, “NORMAL AO/CONG, AUSC/ECHO/HOLTER”, does that just mean normal cardiac results? It also says she was tested for her WAE, but the results are unknown.
Thank you so much in advance for any response or input!!
Personally, this is not a pedigree that I would want based on what I know about the few dogs in it, but that's just me. With that said, there are a couple of dogs that I really like. I would suggest going to the pedigree databases that Europe uses like, Dobermannpedigrees.nl - and https://doberbase.ru/dog/
and researching all of the dogs. A lot would also depend on the dog she is breeding too. It takes two to tangle. His pedigree and health testing would be equally important. What if everything was perfect on her but the breeder decided to do a frozen insemination on a dog that died of DCM?

Hetropositive for DCM 1 means she's a carrier of that gene but she's not a Homo. carrier for it. Which means if she's bred to a clear some of the puppies could end up clear. There hasn't been any definitive research that shows being Hetero or Homo for the DCM genes will lead to DCM (this is especially the case in Euros). On the holter you want as few PVC's as possible. I believe over 50 is considered pre-DCM and over 100 is DCM if I remember correctly.

Being a vWD carrier isn't bad, you would just want her to be bred to a clear dog. Even most affected Dobes never show clinical signs.

I looked to see her results and it doesn't appear that she took the WAE, if she did it wasn't under the name Abigail.

Great job trying to do your research, it's tricky.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 11:31 AM
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I think it's really important to talk to a breeder directly. Online pedigree research is nice, but it's only a snapshot (and sometimes it may even be inaccurate).

When I'm interested in breeder, what I really want is to get to know them and their dogs a bit, get a sense of who they are as a breeder. What are their priorities in breeding, their goals? If there is an upcoming litter or one on the ground, what were they hoping for in the match between their bitch and the stud they chose? It's really helpful for me to have a long conversation with someone (sometimes by phone, maybe by chat), to really get a sense of who they are and what they are doing with their breeding. Are they hoping for health and longevity (I sure hope so!), and if so, how are they achieving that? Current health testing is only a snapshot in time...what about the dogs in the pedigree behind the parents? How old are they or if deceased, how long did they live? What did they die of? What health conditions did they have? What does the owner think might improve in this generation?

How about temperament? What is the bitch like? What does the owner think compliments the temperament of her bitch in the stud dog? What does she expect in these puppies?

It's so much easier to have a conversation and ask those types of questions. Simple one-time health tests don't really give those answers. Obviously a lack of any testing is a no-go (for me), but sometimes Dobequest or OFA doesn't help you know whether those tests are done. You need to go straight to the breeder for that. A breeder should be able to provide you with the hard copies of the tests, if you are in mutual agreement that a puppy from their breeding might be a good fit for you.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
Personally, this is not a pedigree that I would want based on what I know about the few dogs in it, but that's just me. With that said, there are a couple of dogs that I really like. I would suggest going to the pedigree databases that Europe uses like, Dobermannpedigrees.nl - and https://doberbase.ru/dog/
and researching all of the dogs. A lot would also depend on the dog she is breeding too. It takes two to tangle. His pedigree and health testing would be equally important. What if everything was perfect on her but the breeder decided to do a frozen insemination on a dog that died of DCM?

Hetropositive for DCM 1 means she's a carrier of that gene but she's not a Homo. carrier for it. Which means if she's bred to a clear some of the puppies could end up clear. There hasn't been any definitive research that shows being Hetero or Homo for the DCM genes will lead to DCM (this is especially the case in Euros). On the holter you want as few PVC's as possible. I believe over 50 is considered pre-DCM and over 100 is DCM if I remember correctly.

Being a vWD carrier isn't bad, you would just want her to be bred to a clear dog. Even most affected Dobes never show clinical signs.

I looked to see her results and it doesn't appear that she took the WAE, if she did it wasn't under the name Abigail.

Great job trying to do your research, it's tricky.
Thank you so much for all that information! My name is also Gretchen, funny. But, I am also wanting to compete/train for IPO and possibly PSA, and I also already compete in agility with my current dog. So, I do want to dabble in conformation, but I more want a dog that I can do anything and everything with, which is why I like some of the titles in the female's line. I absolutely love the sire Dobequestog Profile Page
But, I have been recommended to some European lines, but I am a bit weary because I don't want a super intense high energy/high drive, as my current dog is definitely on the lower energy side of the spectrum. I have also heard that imports, mostly Ukraine and Russia, they don't health test as much as we do. So, I figured an American Dob would be better. And I like how this American dob was in the DPCA top 20 and also has great OFA results, as well as working titles.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 12:28 PM
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I can see that you are confused, especially because you say you want an American show-line Doberman, but this is not one. No judgement, just saying she's not from a predominantly American pedigree.

She seems to be in the CHIC database so she did take the WAE. If it says the result is unknown, I thought it meant the dog did not pass. However, I just looked up a dog that I know did pass and it also says Result Unknown so it bears investigation. Then I looked on another dog that I know passed it, and it said WAC Issued. ???

She's got lots of health testing, which is great, but as the others said, some investigation into the rest of her pedigree, the proposed sire and his pedigree would still need to be done. Her owner seems to be doing lots of things with her, which is also a plus.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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Response

I've been trying to respond to my thread for about 3 hours now and unfortunately it's not being approved. Thank you so much for all that information! I am also wanting to compete/train for IPO and possibly PSA, and I also already compete in agility with my current dog. So, I do want to dabble in conformation, but I more want a dog that I can do anything and everything with, which is why I like some of the titles in the female's line. The male is an American show-line and I like him a lot. Dobequestog Profile Page
On the other hand, I have been recommended to some European lines, but I am a bit weary because I don't want a super intense high energy/high drive, as my current dog is definitely on the lower energy side of the spectrum. I have also heard that imports, mostly Ukraine and Russia, they don't health test as much as we do. So, I figured an American Dob would be better. And I like how this American dob was in the DPCA top 20 and also has great OFA results, as well as working titles.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 01:27 PM
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I'm sorry but this is making my head spin. You don't want a high energy dog but you want a dog you can do "everything" with, who would be successful in working sports? Perhaps you're giving breeders the wrong impression because you don't know exactly what you want (or actually what you want doesn't really exist). I'm not trying to be mean here, just realistic. What is your priority in a dog and in a breeder? Conformation or working? A show breeder is not going to sell you a show quality dog to "dabble" in conformation with. They will either want the dog finished or purchased as a pet.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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I'm sorry but this is making my head spin. You don't want a high energy dog but you want a dog you can do "everything" with, who would be successful in working sports? Perhaps you're giving breeders the wrong impression because you don't know exactly what you want (or actually what you want doesn't really exist). I'm not trying to be mean here, just realistic. What is your priority in a dog and in a breeder? Conformation or working? A show breeder is not going to sell you a show quality dog to "dabble" in conformation with. They will either want the dog finished or purchased as a pet.
I hate how someone can ask an honest question and immediately get bashed. Personalities vary between dogs, I do everything with my current dog and he is not high energy. Any dog can do dog sports and mostly any dog can do protection if started early, but they may not do well. I never said I wanted a grand champion dog. If you are having to say "I'm sorry" or "I'm not trying to be mean here" you probably shouldn't be saying anything at all.

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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 01:47 PM
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GK isn't trying to be mean. I do think you may get some pushback from breeders and potentially from some clubs, too. I do get what you're saying that your current dog isn't "high energy" and can still be successful. However, please try to be a little open to what he's saying...a lot of protection clubs (not all) aren't super open to people "dabbling" in IPO, and it's harder to find a breeder who will sell you a puppy that would do okay in the show ring but would be okay with you not committing to finishing the pup, you know? If the pup is nice enough to do well, they want them in a committed show home, and if the pup is only mediocre, it would be frustrating to get into confirmation for most people. So it may be harder to find the type of dog you're looking for, that's all.

Maybe "not high energy" isn't the right descriptor. I'd probably say something more like "really good off-switch". Because if you want to do IPO, you're still going to need a fair amount of drive to have a dog that wants to play the game. Sometimes the nuances of language can change how what you ask is perceived. And, really, I suppose it all depends on how you feel about the sports/activities you want to pursue, as well as the dog you end up with and their "need" to work. Sometimes you end up on the end of the spectrum where the dog doesn't have what it takes to do what you want, and you're disappointed, and you have to decide if you can live with that outcome, or, on the other end, you end up with a little more "dog" than you wanted, and you are forced to step it up and do more than you thought you'd do, and you have to decide if you can/are willing to do that.
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 02:05 PM
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701 , Did by chance you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning ? You asked a question and Greenie politely answered your question - I have NO idea what you thought was bashing - Greenie currently has a Dober he is showing and winning with , Hugo , I'm just saying , he knows Dobermans and trying to help and understand just what you wanted . plain and simply

Also take the time and read the accomplishments that is under the picture of Meadowcats dogs = she also knows a thing or two about what she is taking about too .

As far as one dog that can do everything --- I have never seen one yet -

Have a great day

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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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It seems I'm better off doing everything on my own and learning as I go, but I was trying to receive help beforehand and make a better decision. I have no qualms with MeadowCat, as she answered my questions respectfully, and I have thanked her for that. This argument is so dumb.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, I suppose my current dog just has a "very good off-switch" as he is crazy when home or working, but calm and collected when he needs to be.
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 02:25 PM
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Yep - You got up on the wrong the side of the bed - lol

Nobody's auguring with you 701 , lol They were just trying to understand exactly what you were looking for in your Doberman . Dobermans are not for everyone , All ours have had good to high energy , and they not only need attention , but they demand it

I still see nothing wrong with Greenie's reply -

Stick around and learn from what people are saying and don't be so defensive over nothing They are all here to help

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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 02:31 PM
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They aren't the only one confused.

You said you wanted an American show line dog, yet the first DQ page you link is a European show line dog. The second DQ page is for an American show line dog. If this is a proposed breeding, what is the reasoning behind it?That would be something to ask the breeder.

You want a dog capable of being a PSA dog, but you don't want a high energy dog. A dog with low energy is unlikely to be a good bite sport prospect.

You also want a dog that you can show in conformation. If you mean AKC, then a European show line wouldn't be the first choice

As far as the CHIC number, it just means that all the required testing has been done. It doesn't mean that the dog has actually passed all the tests.


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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 02:52 PM
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Firstly, this is not an American showline doberman. This dog might be American-bred, but those lines are all European. In fact it is predominantly East European lines via Ukrainian (de Grande Vinko) Serbian (Come As you Are, Betelges), Hungarian (Tahi-Reme) and a lot of Russian (Royal Bell). There are a couple of Italian, Dutch and German dogs too but I would consider the bulk of this pedigree to be Eastern European showlines, which tend to be very different from american showlines.

This isn't a bad pedigree overall but the Betelges on the bottom combined with the linebreeding on F'Hiram (whom I love don't get me wrong, but this is tight linebreeding to a dog who's grandsire died of DCM. Trying to remember if Eboni, his dam died of it too if if I'm mixing him up with one of his sons. The mating would have to be a total outcross (ie the male should have no dogs in common, or siblings of dogs in common in the pedigree as this female), in my opinion for it to be interesting (and of course it would depend on who the male is and the male's pedigree in general).

And I seem to recall... wasn't Isobel Betelges one of the bitches that someone here on DT ended up having to rescue from a greeder?

To answer your questions about health testing...
DCM1/PDK4 and DCM2/TTN are genes that are thought to be linked to DCM, however the results of the studies haven't been replicated and so these are not considered predictive "health tests" at this point, they are done by breeders to help contribute to research. Hetero-positive means they carry one copy of the gene, homo-positive is two copies.

vWD is a bleeding disease, or more accurately, it is a clotting factor disease where the blood does not coagulate properly. In dobermans they have type 1. It used to be thought that it was a simple recessive however we now know it's not the case. A dog that has two copies of the gene is more likely to be clinically affected, but they won't always be. A dog that has a single copy can also be affected (as of the most recent research/update). A single copy however is very low risk and not a reason to rule out a dog from breeding.


the holter... PVC stands for Premature Ventricular Contractions. In large breed dogs 50 or less is considered normal. Over that is abnormal. However it isn't always indicative of DCM, other illnesses or forms of stress on the body and cardiovascular system could cause PVCs. Certain types of cancers for example have been known to trigger abnormal amounts of PVCs. Les than 10 PVCs is considered a normal result.

For the OFA Advanced Cardiac - the Advanced Cardiac results combine a basic Ausculation, an Echocardiogram and a Holter monitor test. The AO stands for Aorta and Cong is Congenital. “NORMAL AO/CONG, AUSC/ECHO/HOLTER” means the dog was ruled to have normal heart functions while also being free of congenital aortic difformities, and was so determined to be with the help of an ausculation, an echo and a holter. And this was all certified by a cardiologist.

For your purposes, it would depend entirely on the male she intends to use, but if she's breeding to a dog with a similar pedigree this will not produce what you're looking for, unless you'd be content showing only in UKC and UDC. AKC would depend heavily on what this bitch looks like and what stud she's bred to. You're going to have a hard time finding a dog who will be successful in the AKC show ring while also having the capacity to title in IGP. If you absolutely want a dog that could be competitive in the AKC show ring and still have the ability to do IGP, you will also need to be PATIENT, and find helpers and trainers willing to work with and bring along such a dog slowly. Because that's an additional challenge unto its own.

When people say you should look into a European doberman, they mean European bloodlines, not necessarily european imported. The reason for this is because european bloodlines have true, established working lines, which are primarily bred for IPO/IGP. And even the western european showlines often have things to offer in terms of consistent temperament traits and characteristics that would aid in performing in performance sports. The East European showlines can be shady though and their temperaments are often all over the map so you have to be careful of the pedigree behind the individual dogs and which kennels they're coming from.

If you want to do PSA... well that's a whole other animal you're looking for. But PSA and IGP have two things in common, they are the only protection sports where the quality of the grip is actively judged. For the most part, American showlines haven't been selected for their bitework in a very long time. This is problematic because grips are mostly genetic. You can cheat and work and help improve grips but if a dog naturally has a shitty grip, you will never manage to give that dog a real great grip. And to be fair, IGP is a three phase sport. You could probably still win a podium with a 80 score in Protection if you're hitting 98 in Tracking and Obedience. You cannot get away with that in PSA.

So you need to decide what is more important to you: having an IGP dog, having a PSA dog or having a show dog. Of course you could end up with a dog that ends up being versatile enough to dabble in a little bit of everything. I am fortunate enough to have a bitch from American showlines (with strong and consistent performance abilities and even some forms of work, as well as having two dogs in the pedigree who produced IPO titled dogs when bred to the right kind of bitches) who I have taken out in the show ring, did a bit of French Ring with, currently train in IGP with and even took to a PSA seminar for fun a few months ago.

But I wouldn't say my experience is typical of most american showlines, and I always knew from the get go she might not be cut out for protection sports. I know of one person doing French Ring with her 100% American showline girl, but she's an experienced trainer who wanted the challenge of trying French Ring with an Am showline dog. Gretchen_Red also does IGP with her Am showline girl, but she's from one of the few American showline breeders known to have produced several IPO/Sch titled dogs.

Many people would've given up on my dog and I thank my lucky stars we ended up in a club with a truly gifted helper that also had the patience and willingness to work with her. As well as meeting people along the way who believed in her and believed in me. I've had one helper tell me she is a garbage dog and not even magic could accomplish anything with her. 6 months later she obtained her Breed Survey Advanced title with an Excellent rating for temperament and her grip was rated as Calm and full. She was the only dog present at the breed survey to be 100% American showlines, and even then when I say 100% I'm also including South American showlines which have distinctive characteristics both temperamentally and physically from US lines.

From what I understand your primary area of interest is a dog you can learn the ropes of IGP with. For those purposes I do think this bitch could produce what you're looking for but again depends on the male she's paired with. Do you have UKC in your general radius? It'll be easier to find a dog you can do IGP with if dabbling in Confo can be done through UKC.

I would look more at what that individual breeder's or mating's goal is, and if they can explain to you how they believe their breeding decisions will accomplish that goal, and what factors they are taking into account. I would avoid the hardcore working line breeders just as I would avoid the hardcore show line breeders unless they (either kind of breeder) have a record of showing they select for all aspects of health and temperament you desire. For example some working line breeders do not care if their dogs have an off switch... so they produce dogs that have to live in kennels or cannot settle in the house. Some showline breeders I have seen believe temperament is 100% due to the owner, and therefore don't test their dog's temperaments in any venues and will readily breed poor temperaments or a temperament that is not breed appropriate.

Sorry for the info dump, I realise it's a lot to take in. I'd be happy to answer any further questions, give you recommendations or you can send me a private message.


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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 03:05 PM
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In terms of finding a breeder, once you've narrowed it down a little, take the time to talk and get to know the breeder, why they're breeding, what they're breeding for, and try to gauge how much support they give to their new owners AFTER they go home with their new pup.

If you're coming in and the first thing out of your mouth is "I want this and I want that and (you didn't say this at all, but it's amazing how many people do) how much do your puppies cost?" you may not be coming across right to a breeder who wants to place their precious puppies in the absolute best place for them.

Once you've got a conversation going, and you've found out about their specific program (usually people like to talk about their dogs ), then you can say what you want to do with your puppy, and the two of you can decide if their dogs would work for what you want. If the breeder says they don't think you would be a good owner for their puppy, ask why. Politely--as in "is there something I should change about my lifestyle (etc.) that will make me more suited for a dobe?" If you go in with some "evidence" that you've done some research, maybe been to some shows, talked to people who participate in the sports you're interested in, researched who you might work with for training, and so on, that can be a plus too.
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 03:26 PM
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I just realized that I put it takes two to tangle lol. Which is also funny in another dog related way too lol. Surprised no one made fun of me, ahem ECIN.

Sami is a nice dog. A good looking dog too. I haven't loved what I've seen him produce (just my opinion). Kudos to the breeder as I would never want an all red litter.

I don't love either pedigree but I don't hate either pedigree either. Once again, research how the dogs died and what age.

I think, for what you're wanting, a little of this, a little of that, that this would be a good breeding for you. You won't likely get a stellar dog at any of the sports you're hoping to do but you should get a nice sound dog that you can learn with.

Good luck. Don't be shy, remember ppl are only trying to help.
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I just realized that I put it takes two to tangle lol. Which is also funny in another dog related way too lol. Surprised no one made fun of me, ahem ECIN.

Sami is a nice dog. A good looking dog too. I haven't loved what I've seen him produce (just my opinion). Kudos to the breeder as I would never want an all red litter.

I don't love either pedigree but I don't hate either pedigree either. Once again, research how the dogs died and what age.

I think, for what you're wanting, a little of this, a little of that, that this would be a good breeding for you. You won't likely get a stellar dog at any of the sports you're hoping to do but you should get a nice sound dog that you can learn with.

Good luck. Don't be shy, remember ppl are only trying to help.
Thank you. And that is all I want, a partner I can learn the basics of everything with and if I want to go further in something specific I can figure that out when the time comes. I'm sure I can find something the dog excels at and if not, we will work at it until she does.
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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
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I just realized that I put it takes two to tangle lol. Which is also funny in another dog related way too lol. Surprised no one made fun of me, ahem ECIN.
Yeah, ECIN rides me all of the time about sleeping late...it must be one of those get-up-at-3 AM farmer things. LOL

Anyway, GR, I think "two to tangle" is very descriptive....of dogs, and also of life on the internet. Good way to adapt a phrase to your needs.
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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 03:43 PM
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And when I tried to look the bitch up in the DPCA WAE nothing came up, not even results unknown. I even tried searching for just Abigail. Weird that it doesn't state she has her WAE or ROM but maybe it's not official yet? hmm...
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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 03:57 PM
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I just realized that I put it takes two to tangle lol. Which is also funny in another dog related way too lol. Surprised no one made fun of me, ahem ECIN.
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Yeah, ECIN rides me all of the time about sleeping late...it must be one of those get-up-at-3 AM farmer things. LOL

Anyway, GR, I think "two to tangle" is very descriptive....of dogs, and also of life on the internet. Good way to adapt a phrase to your needs.


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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 04:17 PM
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Hello!
I am trying to find a good American show line Doberman breeder, but it has really been a task. I have not shown or personally owned Doberman’s before, so I’ve found it to be very difficult to find a breeder willing to let me purchase a puppy from them. I know that I should be looking for all the genetic testing and such. When I get on Dobequest and I look at test results, the information really confuses me. It’s a lot of numbers and symbols that I am not familiar with. Would someone mind interpreting a bitch’s results I’m looking at getting a puppy from and telling me their personal opinion on buying a puppy from her? She has the echo + holter, vWD, Thyroid, and OFA tests done.
Dobequestog Profile Page
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1969199
I have no idea how to interpret the testing. Per the OFA website, she is a DCM1 carrier and is hetero-positive, what does that mean? The holter results are <10.. I am also unsure what that means. She’s also a vWD carrier.. is that bad? Then she would just need to be paired with a neg male, correct? She has been tested for an Advanced Cardiac twice, and the same results are both times, “NORMAL AO/CONG, AUSC/ECHO/HOLTER”, does that just mean normal cardiac results? It also says she was tested for her WAE, but the results are unknown.
Thank you so much in advance for any response or input!!
I'm just going to try to plainly answer some of your questions. Forgive me if I assume you know less or more than you do.

Echo = ultrasound of the heart

It needs to be performed and interpreted by a veterinary cardiologist. Ideally, the dog should have heart dimensions that fall within the normal range for their breed. And "normal" can vary between breeds.

This is useful to measure the dimensions of the heart, which can indicate presence of DCM. (If you're unfamiliar with DCM - dilated cardiomyopathy, I strongly recommend you read up on it because it is a major killer in the Doberman breed).

Holter = records electrical activity of the heart. Ideally (per my cardiologist), you want <50 VPCs and no runs, pairs, or triplets.

This is useful to identify abnormalities in heartbeat, which is also very common in DCM. Although electrical problems of the heart can present without dilation of the cardiac chambers and can (and do) lead to sudden death in Dobermans via heart attack.

A person can rent or purchase a holter and submit recordings to a company like Alba Medical who will process the data and produce a report. The results are best interpreted by a veterinary cardiologist, particularly when the holter is done around the same time as an echo. These two tests fall into the "health screening" category in that they can be used as diagnostic tools that will either confirm disease presence, or the absence of the disease.

However, neither one can be used to predict whether a dog will develop DCM or have a heart attack at any future time.

vWD - This indicates whether a dog is genetically affected with von Willebrand Disease, which is a blood clotting disorder.

The ideal *IMO* is clear or carrier, but I've known people with affected dogs who have never had a problem with clotting and would have no problem owning another affected dog. I've also known people who have seen the worst of affected and wouldn't do it again. So, its a personal call. Personally, I don't judge breeders who produce affected because I'd rather not narrow the gene pool any more than we have to and if you only aim to produce clears and carriers, well, you're eliminating plenty of good dogs who might have plenty else to offer the breed.

Genetically affected is *not* the same thing as clinically affected and many genetically affected dogs never display an actual issue with clotting. However, your dog's vWD status is something to be aware of and any decent breeder should be able to provide you the status of your pup either based on the genetic status of the parents, or by testing each puppy if there is a chance the breeding produced affected pups. The test for vWD is easy enough to do via genetic marker testing through VetGen.

Thyroid - over or under active thyroid

This test should be done every year, or when suspected, in the form of a "full thyroid panel." It requires a simple blood draw and the sample is sent off to a qualified lab for analysis. IME, it can take as short as a day or as long as up to a week to get results back.

Thyroid is typically easily managed with medication. One word of caution is that I have known of some breeders to list their hypothyroid dog's results as "normal" while failing to provide the information that they test normal on medication. Not the worst thing a breeder can do, but shady IMO. If a dog is on medication in order to achieve a normal range of function, then that is not a normal thyroid.

OFA tests = this usually refers to hips & elbows but more test results can be submitted to OFA, which is stands for Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Some people will choose to use PennHip instead of OFA. Both are valid but PennHip uses a different method for assessing joints and therefore (according to PennHip) it can provide accurate testing in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. Dogs should be over 18-months or 2 yrs for OFA testing (I think, I don't remember the exact age requirement).

Broadly, these tests will provide some kind of quantitative assurance on the health of elbow and hip joints. In Dobermans, most dogs of breeding quality will be rated Good or better, although I do know of a few dogs who have been rated Fair. Generally, as far as I'm aware (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) hip and elbow displaysia are not widespread or serious problems in well bred Dobermans of show or working lines.

Other: DCM1/DCM2 genetic testing

Currently, these tests are most useful to researchers. And I fully support that. But, personally, as a Dobe owner whether the breeding pair has or hasn't been genotyped for isn't make or break for me. I appreciate breeders who do it to contribute to ongoing research efforts, but it just doesn't provide clarity (YET) on the disease that is informative outside of research purposes.


WAE "results unknown" - I don't know what that means. Maybe the dog tested but paper work hasn't been submitted or processed or...? I have no idea. I can't/won't speculate about that. I'd just ask the bitch's owner. (Which, really, that goes for all of this. I'm sure the bitch's owner would be happy to answer the questions of a prospective puppy buyer.)



I don't know anything about the bitch's pedigree. Based on her Dobequest photo, she has some nice qualities. I'm not familiar with all her titles but she's earned an ARCHMX and some rally titles that I can tell, so she's got some performance sport aptitude.

Looking at the sire's pedigree, I like him. I'm pretty familiar with the dam's side of his pedigree and he was sired by Ozzy, who is a nice dog (and I like what he's produced).

I think if you're looking for a dog to dabble with, it seems like this might be a breeding that could produce just that - a dog to dabble with. You probably won't be guaranteed a podium dog or an easy to finish dog. But if you're inexperienced in sport and conformation anyway, you probably don't know if you for sure want those things. And that's okay.

My unsolicited advice would be to (1) talk to the owner of the bitch directly to ask your questions and to discuss what you're hoping for in a dog and what you're interested in trying.

Next, I would suggest you consider trying your hand in the UKC conformation ring. Its amateur only and can be a great place to learn and gain experience. Its a very friendly environment, IME. Then, if your pup turns out nice and you catch the conformation bug, maybe try your hand in the AKC breed ring.

If you're interested in trying out IPO (or whatever its called now...IGP? I don't know), I would recommend identifying clubs now and reaching out. Find out if they're friendly to people who just want to learn and dabble before committing. If not, then maybe start attending training and learning NOW before you have a dog to see if its for you or if you prefer a club environment with less formal commitment.

Whatever the case, really only you can decide what you're serious about and what you want. You might be inadvertently contradicting yourself in your opening post because you just don't know what you don't know. Try not to take offense when people here point it out. This place can be an excellent resource and tone can be difficult to control on the internet. Just assume people mean well unless they tell you otherwise. Take what you want, leave what you don't, and hopefully you'll stick around.

And good luck.



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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 09:52 PM
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Kudos to the breeder as I would never want an all red litter.
Total thread jack ... I only ever bred one all-red litter, and it's the only litter I've had where all littermates (7) passed the age of 10. One became the top obedience Doberman in Canada. One has become my own personal longest living male. Not that it has anything to do with them all being red. Just saying it worked out pretty well, imo.
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