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Todd and his mystery ailments

5K views 60 replies 15 participants last post by  Todd's Mum 
#1 ·
Hi All!

Todd is my 7 year old neutered male blue doberman. I'll try and break down our mini medical saga as concisely as possible....

--On Thursday (12/6) evening I noticed extreme swelling on the left side of his face/neck/throat region. At the time I panicked suspecting a swollen lymph node.
--I got him to the vet the next day where they aspirated the area. The swelling had already gone down a lot but he still had a large firm swelling under his jaw.
--He did well over the weekend with no major changes and the aspirate results came back as normal salivary tissue. We had a tentative diagnosis of a salivary mucocele.

...note since the week prior to this happening he's had a decreased appetite but I chalked this up to recently food chances and a general behavioral quirk of his...aka I thought it was normal.

--jump to Wednesday 12/11 morning, everythings been relatively normal except for minor increases and decreases in swelling (which per my vet is to be expected) Wednesday morning he didn't eat hardly at all so I was going to manually "pill" him to get his routine medications in and he yelped. I tried again with the same result...as the day went on I noticed he was unable to completely open his mouth and didn't want to chew anything crunchy.

--my vet was able to get me an appointment with an internal medicine specialist on Thursday morning. We went in excepting an ultrasound of the area to confirm the salivary mucocele with possible surgical consult but this is not what ended up happening.
--The specialist was unable to completely open his mouth and also noted his submandibular lymph nodes were firm but not enlarged and his one prescapular lymph node was enlarged (same side as the salivary gland thats swollen).
--Per the internal meds recommendation we didn't do the ultrasound (unlikely to help) but instead took multiple lymph node aspirates and did a blood test for mascitory myositis.

...In the meantime we've increased his daily gabapentin dose and we're "status quo" in terms of swelling. He's still being weird about eating and wouldn't allow me to open his mouth for pills this morning. I've seen him full mouth yawn though so I know he CAN open his mouth the whole way.

So, why the heck am I posting here? Because I'm curious if ANYONE has dealt with this? The specialist was pretty frank that it's going to be a bit by bit diagnostic process but felt whatever we were dealing with we caught early since overall he's doing OK. He's eating, albeit not as much as I'd like, he's drinking and he's active. I was also curious if anyone has had experience with salivary gland removals? He's vWD so we have to take that into consideration too.

Thanks! :2smile:
 
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#5 ·
Of course! Todd is on 200mg of Gabapentin twice daily for routine pain management. He has on/off hip discomfort so we have him on this for maintenance. He cannot have NSAIDS so this was the best option. Aside from the gabapentin his also is only daily joint and skin supplements (currently, Dasuquin Advanced and Grizzley krill oil). We used Apoquel as needed for skin flare ups but he hasn't had this in months. We've been treating topically and keeping up his bathing schedule.

Overall he's been healthy--he's had 2 episodes over the past few years with neck discomfort after rough housing with his brother.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I really have no idea and I'm not a vet, so I can't be of any use here. But for some reason I thought of masticatory muscle myositis, I guess because he didn't seem to want to open his mouth. I have no idea quite where the swelling involved with that is, and I'm thinking it might be a really long shot in your case, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Anyway, I hope you get to the root of the problem very soon and that it has an easy cure. Keep us posted.
 
#6 ·
I really have no idea and I'm not a vet, so I can't be of any use here. But for some reason I thought of masticatory muscle myositis...I have no idea where the swelling involved with that is, and I'm thinking it might be a long shot in your case, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Anyway, I hope you get to the root of the problem very soon and that it has an easy cure. Keep us posted.
thanks Mel, yes that is actually on the table right now. They took blood for testing--that's the one I'll get back late next week. She said it's not first on the list because he presented with swelling before pain but she said it was definitely worth testing for.

I'll also report he's happily shredding a toy right now so his mouth can't hurt too bad today? :grin2:
 
#8 ·
If it is MMM, my understanding is that quick diagnosis really can make a difference in treatment. We've had two dogs on here that have had that disease.

Here is one thread that is about MMM...if you scroll down a few posts to dax's first post, you'll see links to several threads about Chase's journey with MMM: https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/287321-masticatory-muscle-myositis.html

Here is Dexter's journey with MMM: https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/71532-dexter-has-masticatory-muscle-myositis.html

Hoping you are able to figure out what's going on.
 
#9 ·
Thanks! As much as I want to say "I hope it isn't MMM" I'll take that over the big C. I used to work as a technician for a number of years and I only remember 2 dogs that were diagnosed and it wasn't pretty but both of these dogs were diagnosed far along where they couldn't eat on their own or open their mouth at all. Will keep updating as I hear more or as things move along!
 
#10 ·
Yeah, MMM was my first thought when I read he wasn't able to fully open his mouth--it's entirely possible that there are two issues present and it does sound like you've been on top of it and have seen the right vet/specialist to get a diagnosis.

I know of at least a couple of dogs who recovered entirely from MMM--both had early diagnosis--the Doberman went on to become an AKC Champion and do a bunch of performance stuff. The other was a German Shorthair--he was a family pet and I think that he remained that.

I can tell you all about gabapentin--since I'm on it for pain relief from sciatica (I'm also on a lot of other stuff--but gabapentin and celebrix (an NSAID) are the main controllers.

Good luck with your boy--do keep us posted on his progress.

dobebug
 
#11 ·
I don't know much about MMM does it affect the Jaws? I guess I thought more of the head. Have they done X-rays? Is it possible it could have just been a random infection in one of the molars?

Have you found any ticks on him lately? I think I read somewhere that there are some tick borne diseases that present themselves through the lymph nodes?

Whatever the diagnosis is will you please comeback and update us? Last week I was searching through files because Maverick had a swollen toe (I swear the dog sneezes and I think it's cancer), I found probably 5 threads similar to his and not ONE person came back with a diagnosis. That was really frustrating for me. We can't help others with these threads unless people come back and update them.
 
#13 ·
I don't know much about MMM does it affect the Jaws? I guess I thought more of the head.
The muscles that wrap around the head are used for chewing, so yes, MMM affects the dog's ability to properly open their mouth.
 
#16 ·
Morning All:

I have an update :(

Our specialist called me last night with the lymph node results. They are "inconclusive" at this time because there is a lot of variances between the samples viewed. The pathologist said it highly highly suspect for Lymphoma and said it's 60% likely however we could still be dealing with inflammation or infection. We'd added on an additional testing that has to be sent to NCSU. I (frustratingly) will not have those results until late next week early the following.

Is it terrible that I'm really hoping the MMM test comes back positive?

Todd is still a happy boy, albeit he seems very tired--likely because we've doubled his gabapentin. He's being treated like a king in the mean time. .... so.... the saga continues... think happy thoughts for us!

Thanks!
 
#17 ·
That's super frustrating. When do you expect the MMM results?
 
#20 ·
Thanks...:frown3: it's so tough looking at his swollen little face right now and just...waiting...

We're super lucky that his regular veterinarian is also a personal friend (we used to work together) AND she lives a block down from me. She took a peek at him again tonight and still isn't convinced we're dealing with lymphoma. All his issues are isolated to the left side of his face, left lymph node is enlarged... she personally spoke with the specialist we're seeing and the specialist is also suspicious of a migrating foreign body so it really sounds like everyone is invested in this strange diagnostic game we're in right now...

Thanks!
 
#25 ·
Hi Pam!

No, which is also so strange. He's became a little more finicky with his food about a week prior to the first swelling incident but I'm still not certain this is related. He has ALWAYS been a finicky eater and goes through phases and we just recently were doing a food trial that was in the midst of "going south". However his appetite hasn't rebounded so I can't say.

Otherwise he's having normal bodily functions and thirst is normal.
 
#26 ·
No eye-rolling but a light chuckle. We've had lots of folks suggest a dental issue. And while I'd LOVE for that to be the problem. Both myself, my regular vet and his specialist all did oral checks. Assuming we're still unsure or things after his test results come back we're planning sedation and either biopsy, CT or explore. Either way, we'll have a sedated oral exam at that time too but he's very compliant so it's unlikely at this point.
 
#27 ·
Hi All,

It's been a little bit so I thought I'd update the thread.

Our MMM test results came back on Saturday--negative (as suspected since his jaw pain hasn't gotten worse).

We're still waiting on the additional lymphoma test, which sadly is likely what we're dealing with. He's had enlarged lymph nodes all week and started limping 2 days ago. I spoke with the specialist regarding the limping and she suspects that his axilla lymph node is enlarged and pinching a nerve--causing the limp.

He's otherwise "status quo" eating is decreased and sporadic but he's eating and he seems depressed in the morning but seems to perk up as the day goes on. Hoping for more results before Christmas so we can get the treatment plan rolling for the new year.

Kisha
 
#31 ·
Hi again folks....

The PAR test from NCSU is in and it's negative. There is a 20% chance of a false negative so we are proceeding with a lymph node biopsy so we can 100% say we he is clear of lymphoma.

Now, what could be causing these various symptoms is still mystifying us. We will be also testing for some uncommon tick borne illnesses. So hats off to the person that mentioned it earlier. We're checking for Bartonella & Rocky Mt. Spotted Fever. His symptoms aren't super on point for it and his bloodwork has been pristine. No high WBC count, nothing. BUT when I look up the symptoms, we've had lymph node issues, joint discomfort, nose bleed (very minor and I chalked it up to his vwd) AND he's had some eye discharge, again assumed it was related to his enlarged salivary glad. SO I can make it fit but I'm sure many other things have the possibility too.

So the saga continues... we're hoping to biopsy this week and have results by the new year. If they're negative the serology goes out. (and we're delaying the serology because the specialized lab it goes to doesn't open back up until 1/2 so it's by necessity).

Thanks for your support through the saga!
 
#32 ·
Kisha - I had to do a goggle to help understand what he has - so here's what I found - but sure you have done the same - some interesting things here .

Lymphoid hyperplasia: when lymph nodes react to an infectious agent by producing an excess of white blood cells, but are not themselves infected
Lymphadenitis: when the lymph nodes themselves are infected either primarily or secondarily
Infectious agents:
Sporotrichosis: fungal infection of the skin, acquired from soil, hay, plants (most notably, garden roses); affects the skin, lungs, bones, and brain
Bacterial:
Rickettsia: transmitted by ticks and fleas
Bartonella spp: transmitted by biting flies
Brucella canis: sexually transmitted; acquired during breeding
Pasteurella: transmitted through the respiratory system
Yersinia pestis : transmitted by fleas and possibly rodents; also known as the plague
Fusobacterium: infection of the mouth, chest, throat, lungs
Francisella tularensis: tularemia; transmitted by ticks, deer flies, and by the dispersion of gases from an infected animal carcass (frequently occurring during lawn-mowing)
Mycobacterial: transmitted by infected water supply
Non-infectious agents:
Allergens: lymph glands respond to an allergic reaction in the body by producing more cells – usually occurs in the lymph nodes near the site of the reaction
Immune-mediated disease: the body’s immune system over-reacts to an invasion, or reacts inappropriately
Eosinophilic infiltration: multiplication of white blood cells responsible for controlling allergy response, or for fighting parasitic agents
Canine hypereosinophilic syndrome: excessive eosinophils, may be associated with leukemia, blood marrow infection, asthma, or allergy
 
#33 ·
Yes! You're right, while I'm incredibly frustrated and worried--it's an interesting saga. Many of his symptoms fit into these categories. While he doesn't travel far, he spends a lot of time in wooded area where he runs through all sorts of terrain and he's exposed to horses. While he's not one to "get into things" he's also very curious about stuff.
 
#37 ·
I'm sure you're incredibly frustrated...the mystery stuff is the worst. I'd almost rather know something "bad" than just...not know. At least then you know what to start trying to treat. I think in-depth screening for tick-borne disease is a good place to start. There are so many of them now and they can really cause a lot of strange symptoms. Continuing to send lots of good thoughts your way - hoping you can get a diagnosis soon.
 
#38 ·
I'm thinking like Meadowcat here - May have to think outside the box - One thing that caught my eye was this : Mycobacterial: transmitted by infected water supply ---- Reason --- You said he sends lots of time in the woods , So I'm wondering if he could have drank from a mudhole or something like that . People and animals have got sick here from drinking after a deer drinks the water - transmits it to the water . I know - Its a wild idea and No I'm not been drinking :grin2:
 
#39 ·
Gosh, only because I just lost my girl in September to what was either lymphoma or hemangiosarcoma, we went through many of the same symptoms as your sweet boy. Her presenting symptoms were urinary incontinence at night, then excessive thirst. We also found an enlarged lymph node on her neck that her primary vet biopsied. She also almost simultaneously started breathing fast at night while lying down. Very quickly, we got her into see a specialist, within days actually. They did a chest xray that showed enlarged mediastinum and lymph nodes which led to an abdominal CT, which showed a splenic tumor, liver tumor and subsequently a chest mass. During this time (within days) she lost so much weight in her hips and face because she couldn't chew or swallow well. During this time, we had to have fluid removed from her lungs twice, two back to back days. Her lymph node results came back much like yours, inconclusive. We couldn't keep her alive long enough to even try chemotherapy.....I don't know if I would've put her thorough that honestly. What we did do, was love her as much as we possibly could for the time she had left. I hope you get some answers. Be pushy, be a pest and don't delay would be my only advice.
 
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