Todd and his mystery ailments - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ECIN View Post
Hi Kisha - Sure hate to hear about Todd not feeling well , but I have a question - you may roll your eyes on this one but here goes , Have you checked Todd's teeth ??? A broken tooth ? Gum disease ? Infected tooth ? Infection can be very dangerous and spread and could cause swelling and lack of apatite + pain .

Just a thought

Doc
No eye-rolling but a light chuckle. We've had lots of folks suggest a dental issue. And while I'd LOVE for that to be the problem. Both myself, my regular vet and his specialist all did oral checks. Assuming we're still unsure or things after his test results come back we're planning sedation and either biopsy, CT or explore. Either way, we'll have a sedated oral exam at that time too but he's very compliant so it's unlikely at this point.
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post #27 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-23-2019, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

It's been a little bit so I thought I'd update the thread.

Our MMM test results came back on Saturday--negative (as suspected since his jaw pain hasn't gotten worse).

We're still waiting on the additional lymphoma test, which sadly is likely what we're dealing with. He's had enlarged lymph nodes all week and started limping 2 days ago. I spoke with the specialist regarding the limping and she suspects that his axilla lymph node is enlarged and pinching a nerve--causing the limp.

He's otherwise "status quo" eating is decreased and sporadic but he's eating and he seems depressed in the morning but seems to perk up as the day goes on. Hoping for more results before Christmas so we can get the treatment plan rolling for the new year.

Kisha
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post #28 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-23-2019, 12:20 PM
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I'm so sorry to hear this...not what you had hoped, I know. Keep us updated when you can. It's so awful when our loved ones are ill.
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post #29 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-23-2019, 01:03 PM
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Really sad and sorry to hear this, Kisha. Just hoping the prognosis might be something different for him, that can be turned around somehow. Thank you for keeping us informed.

"Lots of people talk to animals...Not very many listen, though...That's the problem. " ~ The Tao of Pooh
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post #30 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-23-2019, 02:06 PM
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So Kisha - How was Todd's white cell count ? High ?

Best wishes for you all
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post #31 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-23-2019, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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So Kisha - How was Todd's white cell count ? High ?

Best wishes for you all
Hi again folks....

The PAR test from NCSU is in and it's negative. There is a 20% chance of a false negative so we are proceeding with a lymph node biopsy so we can 100% say we he is clear of lymphoma.

Now, what could be causing these various symptoms is still mystifying us. We will be also testing for some uncommon tick borne illnesses. So hats off to the person that mentioned it earlier. We're checking for Bartonella & Rocky Mt. Spotted Fever. His symptoms aren't super on point for it and his bloodwork has been pristine. No high WBC count, nothing. BUT when I look up the symptoms, we've had lymph node issues, joint discomfort, nose bleed (very minor and I chalked it up to his vwd) AND he's had some eye discharge, again assumed it was related to his enlarged salivary glad. SO I can make it fit but I'm sure many other things have the possibility too.

So the saga continues... we're hoping to biopsy this week and have results by the new year. If they're negative the serology goes out. (and we're delaying the serology because the specialized lab it goes to doesn't open back up until 1/2 so it's by necessity).

Thanks for your support through the saga!
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post #32 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-23-2019, 03:16 PM
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Kisha - I had to do a goggle to help understand what he has - so here's what I found - but sure you have done the same - some interesting things here .

Lymphoid hyperplasia: when lymph nodes react to an infectious agent by producing an excess of white blood cells, but are not themselves infected
Lymphadenitis: when the lymph nodes themselves are infected either primarily or secondarily
Infectious agents:
Sporotrichosis: fungal infection of the skin, acquired from soil, hay, plants (most notably, garden roses); affects the skin, lungs, bones, and brain
Bacterial:
Rickettsia: transmitted by ticks and fleas
Bartonella spp: transmitted by biting flies
Brucella canis: sexually transmitted; acquired during breeding
Pasteurella: transmitted through the respiratory system
Yersinia pestis : transmitted by fleas and possibly rodents; also known as the plague
Fusobacterium: infection of the mouth, chest, throat, lungs
Francisella tularensis: tularemia; transmitted by ticks, deer flies, and by the dispersion of gases from an infected animal carcass (frequently occurring during lawn-mowing)
Mycobacterial: transmitted by infected water supply
Non-infectious agents:
Allergens: lymph glands respond to an allergic reaction in the body by producing more cells – usually occurs in the lymph nodes near the site of the reaction
Immune-mediated disease: the body’s immune system over-reacts to an invasion, or reacts inappropriately
Eosinophilic infiltration: multiplication of white blood cells responsible for controlling allergy response, or for fighting parasitic agents
Canine hypereosinophilic syndrome: excessive eosinophils, may be associated with leukemia, blood marrow infection, asthma, or allergy
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post #33 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-23-2019, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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Kisha - I had to do a goggle to help understand what he has - so here's what I found - but sure you have done the same - some interesting things here .

Lymphoid hyperplasia: when lymph nodes react to an infectious agent by producing an excess of white blood cells, but are not themselves infected
Lymphadenitis: when the lymph nodes themselves are infected either primarily or secondarily
Infectious agents:
Sporotrichosis: fungal infection of the skin, acquired from soil, hay, plants (most notably, garden roses); affects the skin, lungs, bones, and brain
Bacterial:
Rickettsia: transmitted by ticks and fleas
Bartonella spp: transmitted by biting flies
Brucella canis: sexually transmitted; acquired during breeding
Pasteurella: transmitted through the respiratory system
Yersinia pestis : transmitted by fleas and possibly rodents; also known as the plague
Fusobacterium: infection of the mouth, chest, throat, lungs
Francisella tularensis: tularemia; transmitted by ticks, deer flies, and by the dispersion of gases from an infected animal carcass (frequently occurring during lawn-mowing)
Mycobacterial: transmitted by infected water supply
Non-infectious agents:
Allergens: lymph glands respond to an allergic reaction in the body by producing more cells – usually occurs in the lymph nodes near the site of the reaction
Immune-mediated disease: the body’s immune system over-reacts to an invasion, or reacts inappropriately
Eosinophilic infiltration: multiplication of white blood cells responsible for controlling allergy response, or for fighting parasitic agents
Canine hypereosinophilic syndrome: excessive eosinophils, may be associated with leukemia, blood marrow infection, asthma, or allergy
Yes! You're right, while I'm incredibly frustrated and worried--it's an interesting saga. Many of his symptoms fit into these categories. While he doesn't travel far, he spends a lot of time in wooded area where he runs through all sorts of terrain and he's exposed to horses. While he's not one to "get into things" he's also very curious about stuff.
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post #34 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-23-2019, 05:08 PM
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Keisha have they done a CT scan of his abdomen or a chest xray?
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post #35 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-23-2019, 05:18 PM
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I just found this thread. I have nothing to add other than I hope you get answers soon. I'm sure this has been super frustrating!

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post #36 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-24-2019, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Keisha have they done a CT scan of his abdomen or a chest xray?
No, they have not. Initially when we did the FNA & MMM test she said if they both came back negative she wanted to do a CT to rule our a migrating foreign body but given how his symptoms have changed they felt the biopsy was the next way to go. (he no long has facial swelling and his lymph nodes are enlarged)
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post #37 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-24-2019, 10:29 AM
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I'm sure you're incredibly frustrated...the mystery stuff is the worst. I'd almost rather know something "bad" than just...not know. At least then you know what to start trying to treat. I think in-depth screening for tick-borne disease is a good place to start. There are so many of them now and they can really cause a lot of strange symptoms. Continuing to send lots of good thoughts your way - hoping you can get a diagnosis soon.


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post #38 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-24-2019, 11:01 AM
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I'm thinking like Meadowcat here - May have to think outside the box - One thing that caught my eye was this : Mycobacterial: transmitted by infected water supply ---- Reason --- You said he sends lots of time in the woods , So I'm wondering if he could have drank from a mudhole or something like that . People and animals have got sick here from drinking after a deer drinks the water - transmits it to the water . I know - Its a wild idea and No I'm not been drinking
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post #39 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-24-2019, 05:04 PM
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Gosh, only because I just lost my girl in September to what was either lymphoma or hemangiosarcoma, we went through many of the same symptoms as your sweet boy. Her presenting symptoms were urinary incontinence at night, then excessive thirst. We also found an enlarged lymph node on her neck that her primary vet biopsied. She also almost simultaneously started breathing fast at night while lying down. Very quickly, we got her into see a specialist, within days actually. They did a chest xray that showed enlarged mediastinum and lymph nodes which led to an abdominal CT, which showed a splenic tumor, liver tumor and subsequently a chest mass. During this time (within days) she lost so much weight in her hips and face because she couldn't chew or swallow well. During this time, we had to have fluid removed from her lungs twice, two back to back days. Her lymph node results came back much like yours, inconclusive. We couldn't keep her alive long enough to even try chemotherapy.....I don't know if I would've put her thorough that honestly. What we did do, was love her as much as we possibly could for the time she had left. I hope you get some answers. Be pushy, be a pest and don't delay would be my only advice.
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post #40 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-25-2019, 10:34 AM
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Kisha - Merry Christmas to you and Todd !

I have been thinking - its a problem I have , So please bare with me I have reread all of your replies on Todd - Then I went back to my post on what can cause this - There is lots caused by Bacterial issues , Has your Vet ran a culture test ? To see if they can grow the bacteria ? That way they can use the right antibiotic to treat it ? I'm just saying , most of your tests have came back Negative . I think one Vet said ( If I remember right ) it could be something else . I have run into this before with a Vet - She got tunnel vision and sure she was right . Me - Being NOT right questioned her about everything - I Kept telling her there was no way - I asked for more testing in a different direction - Not bragging here - but ended up being right . Keep a open mind on everything ! BTW - I trend to be the more like a glass half full than empty type

Pam wrote this this : Be pushy, be a pest and don't delay would be my only advice.


Better words could not have been spoken here

Best of luck

Doc
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post #41 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-26-2019, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Doc!

Yes, while we're looking at it one way, we aren't only searching for one answer. I've been pushing to consolidate the testing. The stupid holidays are delaying A LOT of testing right now. Our biopsy procedure has been postponed until after the new year because the specialty hospital does not carry the cryoprecipitate nor the demopressin we need and of course none of the neighboring hospitals have it either. We have to wait until the compounding place opens back up on the 2nd.

We also cannot send out the tick serology yet because THAT lab is closed until the 2nd. So I've requested that the serology be sent out when they see him for biopsy rather than wait on biopsy results.

It's a frustrating waiting game right now... upside (I suppose) is that some of his lymph nodes have gone down and his appetite it slightly better. He's nibbling on dry kibble now whereas last week he couldn't even chew treats. My regular vet is going to see him again tomorrow or Saturday to feel his lymph nodes again. Even his salivary glands are symmetrical again.

Aside from updates on Todd, I won't have any answers for you guys for another week or 2
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post #42 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-26-2019, 05:28 PM
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Keisha stay encouraged. Love ya.
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post #43 of 60 (permalink) Old 12-26-2019, 08:17 PM
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continued good thoughts - I would be a mess just wanting to know what the issue is, so i really feel for you!
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post #44 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

I just wanted to share a quick WTH update on my son aka Todd...

He had a visit with his regular vet yesterday who confirmed my newest finding...ALL of his lymph nodes are back to NORMAL. His appetite has almost returned to normal. We're completely baffled. She actually said, "if you brought him into me and I didn't know what I know, I'd tell you he's perfectly normal and healthy".....I've alerted our specialist and am waiting for a follow up from her but last we spoke she said regardless of his lymph node changes we were going to move forward with the biopsy to be certain.

So...onward the story goes!
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post #45 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 03:41 PM
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Weird, but...great?!


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post #46 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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Weird, but...great?!
No idea! My vet said she's never once seen a case of lymphoma that came and "went away" like this has so she really isn't expecting for anything like that but she's still encouraging me to move forward with the biopsy. She also warned me that we never get an answer since he seems to already be recovering.

I plan to follow through with the diagnostic plan because I'd love an answer to avoid another "flare up". Will keep everyone posted once he has his surgery! Thanks for following Todd's strange story!
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post #47 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 05:22 PM
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Hi Keisha. Forgive me because I can't remember....did they start him on prednisone? If so, that will decrease the lymph node sizes. When they were working our Zuri up for lymphoma, they said the same thing,...If we start her on prednisone before the bx, the diagnosis won't be clear. Just a thought.

We are praying for you guys.
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post #48 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 08:54 PM
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Well that's good but I hope you get an answer to the problem, although at least you have an answer to the solution... perhaps.
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post #49 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-08-2020, 02:19 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamlocke View Post
Hi Keisha. Forgive me because I can't remember....did they start him on prednisone? If so, that will decrease the lymph node sizes. When they were working our Zuri up for lymphoma, they said the same thing,...If we start her on prednisone before the bx, the diagnosis won't be clear. Just a thought.

We are praying for you guys.
Pam, no, prednisone is a treatment for lymphoma you're correct but we opted not to begin any treatment protocol at all because of the implications for further diagnosis.

I spoke with our specialist yesterday and she left it up to use whether or not we want to move forward with the biopsy (with the understanding we COULD get an inconclusive response) OR we can postpone and wait for symptoms to pop back up. After consulting with our regular DVM we've opted to move forward with the procedure because one of his lymph nodes is still palpable...it isn't big BUT because we can feel it at all it's considered enlarged. So, surgery on Monday.
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post #50 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-08-2020, 02:59 PM
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Best of luck and I hope you get good news. Keep us posted.
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