DCM diagnosed in my 1 year old - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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I am happy to pass the pedigree blood line on to anyone who wants it, over thinks that they might find it useful.
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by iluvMarcus123 View Post
I went to a new Cardiologist with my husband today. He has conjestive heart failure. The doctor actually said that he has DCM!!! OMG. I cannot stand the irony. At least, I knew exactly what he was talking about.
But, with my husband, if the new medications don't work, they will look at putting in a pace maker.
This is awful, I'm so sorry to hear he's already in heart failure.

I hope you will read up on DCM. There are some great threads here on Dobermantalk and some groups on facebook and other places dedicated to doberman specific DCM.

As others have mentioned the genetic (cheek swab) tests really aren't a good indicator of anything about your dog's health. The echo and holter results will tell you the most, and that's why great breeders do yearly holter/echo's on dogs they've bred, breed, or plan to breed.

I do not know the breeder your dog is from but from what you describe it sounds like a back yard breeder or someone possibly importing and breeding dogs as a business. If that's the case, I don't expect any kind of understanding or cooperation from this person, and I would just let it go at this point. I know you're hurting and afraid for your boy so I would suggest that you concentrate your attention to his care.
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by iluvMarcus123 View Post
The breeder is Olivette Doberman in Savannah Tennessee. I have been reluctant to put their name out on any kind of social media, until I get the genetic testing back. It may not tell me anything. But, who knows???
For anyone who knows, some one on another board gave me the names of Doberman lines that are known to have DCM. I found 2 of those names in Marcus pedigree line. Is this meaningful?
When I first got the news, I contacted them, and told them what was going on. I told them that I had paid for the testing.
I told them that I was devastated, that I was in love with the dog, and that he was costing thousands of dollars in medical bills.
The only thing that I asked them for, was another dog from another blood line.
I would have been happy.
I got crickets. No response. Not even, I am so sorry.
Then, I find out that they are breeding his father again.
So, now I am mad.
They should have apologized and offered me a puppy.

They gave us Marcus when he was 6 weeks old. It is illegal to sell a puppy in the state of Tennessee before 8 weeks. Again...stupid me. They had taken him away from his mother and bottle fed him. She was spayed and stopped producing milk. She was "hurting" him by licking him to hard, as he was the only one. He stopped drinking from the bottle himself and ate food on his own at 3 weeks. again blah blah blah

Will I go after them now? You be that I will.
I'm not sure pursuing anything with this breeder would be terribly fruitful for you. Why would you want another puppy from them? They aren't doing anything right. Based on a look at their website, they are simply importing dogs to breed them for profit. I don't see any signs that make me think this is an ethical breeder, and if they were willing to sell you a 6 week old puppy (illegal), won't support you now, and didn't do the proper health testing and pedigree research in the first place, why would you want to gamble on another dog from them?

Love your boy for the time you have left together (and may it be as long as possible). Stick around here, let us help you learn about what makes a responsible breeder. This is just one more of those breeders jumping on the "Euro" fad suckering people into buying puppies and unfortunately, you lost out and are learning the hard way. We can help you make a better choice next time, buy from a responsible breeder who has done their best to breed a healthy dog, and who will support you. This is a hard, hard lesson to learn this way, but many people on this forum have had dogs from this type of breeder. There are so many reasons we try really hard to educate people and support responsible breeding. This is one of them.
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by iluvMarcus123 View Post
...
For anyone who knows, some one on another board gave me the names of Doberman lines that are known to have DCM. I found 2 of those names in Marcus pedigree line. Is this meaningful?
How far back are they? All dobe lines have at least some DCM dogs in them. But there's a big difference between whether the ancestor is an immediate sire or dam, or way back there among the great-greats.
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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvMarcus123 View Post
The breeder is Olivette Doberman in Savannah Tennessee. I have been reluctant to put their name out on any kind of social media, until I get the genetic testing back. It may not tell me anything. But, who knows???
For anyone who knows, some one on another board gave me the names of Doberman lines that are known to have DCM. I found 2 of those names in Marcus pedigree line. Is this meaningful?
When I first got the news, I contacted them, and told them what was going on. I told them that I had paid for the testing.
I told them that I was devastated, that I was in love with the dog, and that he was costing thousands of dollars in medical bills.
The only thing that I asked them for, was another dog from another blood line.
I would have been happy.
I got crickets. No response. Not even, I am so sorry.
Then, I find out that they are breeding his father again.
So, now I am mad.
They should have apologized and offered me a puppy.

They gave us Marcus when he was 6 weeks old. It is illegal to sell a puppy in the state of Tennessee before 8 weeks. Again...stupid me. They had taken him away from his mother and bottle fed him. She was spayed and stopped producing milk. She was "hurting" him by licking him to hard, as he was the only one. He stopped drinking from the bottle himself and ate food on his own at 3 weeks. again blah blah blah

Will I go after them now? You be that I will.
I am so sorry for you! This really is unnecessary heartache.
IMO. The best that you can do is understand how this came about in such a young pup , and if it could have been minimized my good breeding practices , Warn others of the chances one is taken when getting involved with someone who sells this type of Dobe.
I would not want another pup from these people and i would look many degrees of separation to find another.
You will probably never be made whole but hopefully you will come to understand what a good breeder is and educate others when the opportunity is there.
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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 02:22 PM
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I am sorry for the heartache you are going through. Our group has rescued many Kimbertal dogs who have experienced DCM at insanely young ages, 1-2, and their lines are littered with Altobello imports. I see your puppy's breeder is heavy with the same. It is definitely not a common diagnosis at such a young age. Again, I am so very sorry. I hope the Vetmedin and Enalapril will give him some extra quality time.
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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
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Do I understand that you see that Olivette Doberman lines are heavy with DCM? Don't understand Atobello Imports. Would you please explain that to me.
I am so angry and crushed.
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 11:19 PM
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Altobello is a commercial kennel in Europe. They are very popular with people who breed Euro line dogs here in the US.
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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 07:50 AM
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Do I understand that you see that Olivette Doberman lines are heavy with DCM? Don't understand Atobello Imports. Would you please explain that to me.
I am so angry and crushed.
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Altobello is a commercial kennel in Europe. They are very popular with people who breed Euro line dogs here in the US.
The breeder you bought from is essentially importing dogs from a big kennel in Europe, and breeding those "lines" (Altobello). There isn't a long "line" of Olivette dogs, but rather they are just using imported dogs from overseas.
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 09:13 AM
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How far back are they? All dobe lines have at least some DCM dogs in them. But there's a big difference between whether the ancestor is an immediate sire or dam, or way back there among the great-greats.
Looks like the grandsire on the dam's side had at least 3 siblings die from DCM at fairly young ages. And the granddam on the dam's side had also produced dogs that have died from DCM. That's a pretty lethal combo.
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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 03:05 PM
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There are some lines that are known for producing a lot of DCM, but I will say that DCM rears its ugly head in every line at some point or another. It is in the breed, and is something that we really can't totally breed away from. Our best chance is to do the testing: echo's and holters, and look for pedigrees that are not heavy with cardio. Even then, no guarantee.

That said, very young DCM is pretty rare if the above precautions are done.

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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Ok. So here is the shocker. Marcus genetic test came back negative for the DCM markers. The Vet and the cardiologist that she has been consulting with are a little surprised.
Her next guess, is that he may be turine deficient. He has only eaten Purina Pro Plan Large Breed, which is turbine fortified.
She is going to send blood over to UC Davis to have it tested for turine absorbson.
It is a long shot.
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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 04:04 PM
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Ok. So here is the shocker. Marcus genetic test came back negative for the DCM markers. The Vet and the cardiologist that she has been consulting with are a little surprised.
Her next guess, is that he may be turine deficient. He has only eaten Purina Pro Plan Large Breed, which is turbine fortified.
She is going to send blood over to UC Davis to have it tested for turine absorbson.
It is a long shot.
It's not actually terribly shocking that his genetic testing came back that way - we've all been trying to tell you that the genetic testing is NOT at all indicative of whether a dog will or will not develop the disease. Many dogs who test negative for one or both genes have developed DCM and many dog who are/were positive for the genes have not developed DCM. Again, to reiterate, the genetic testing AT THIS POINT is really only useful for research purposes.

Secondly, in terms of the taurine deficient (really a misnomer, as many dogs are not low in taurine who have nutritional DCM)...I've been following this VERY closely. First off, the taurine testing is not that helpful. Many many many of the dogs who have nutritional DCM are testing with normal taurine levels. Personally, I think it's a waste of your money to pursue taurine testing, but, your call. Second, it is much more rare for a dog to develop nutritional DCM after only a year, and even more so when eating a non-grain-free diet, and especially a diet that is one that is NOT one of the foods indicated in the BEG/Grain-free issues. Proplan is one of the diets recommended by cardiologists that SHOULD be fed. It's highly, highly unlikely that your dog would have diet-induced DCM in the first place (breed, age, length of time eating the diet, the actual diet)....I'm shocked that your cardiologist would even pursue this.
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by iluvMarcus123 View Post
Ok. So here is the shocker. Marcus genetic test came back negative for the DCM markers. The Vet and the cardiologist that she has been consulting with are a little surprised.
Her next guess, is that he may be turine deficient. He has only eaten Purina Pro Plan Large Breed, which is turbine fortified.
She is going to send blood over to UC Davis to have it tested for turine absorbson.
It is a long shot.
It has been explained in prior posts by members that the genetic testing is not indicative of anything. There are dogs that test negative for either or both tests and develop DCM, and there are dogs that test positive and never develop the disease. I know you are looking for some kind of answer but it is unlikely that it's Taurine/absorption related. DCM is a huge problem in our breed and therefore hereditary. Based on causes of death and ages that others are pointing out in his pedigree I think your answer lies there... unfortunately.
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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvMarcus123 View Post
Ok. So here is the shocker. Marcus genetic test came back negative for the DCM markers. The Vet and the cardiologist that she has been consulting with are a little surprised.
Her next guess, is that he may be turine deficient. He has only eaten Purina Pro Plan Large Breed, which is turbine fortified.
She is going to send blood over to UC Davis to have it tested for turine absorbson.
It is a long shot.
This really shouldn't be a shocker.DCM1 and DCM2 markers only tell you if certain genes which have been associated with cardio in the Doberman are present. They are valuable for further testing of the breed. (In people who have a very similar form of DCM and have had research going on much longer have somewhere around 26 different genes that are known to contribute to DCM in people--AND the researcher all make it clear that this is only the beginning of testing). DCM and both people and Dobermans is not a simple single gene disease--it is polygenetic and I expect many more related genes will be found.

I'm only surprised that the cardiologist was surprised that they found that DCM1 & 2 (and there is some very new information that looks as if DCM 2 may not be a separate gene at all but a modifier of DCM 1). Were both the test for DCM 1 and DCM 2 (and they are either homozygous for DCM1 or heterozygous for DCM1 or negative for DCM1--and at present it looks as if they may have to go back to the drawing board on relationship of DCM2 to DCM1.

It is known that dogs negative for DCM 1 can get DCM and those who are homozygous (have two positive genes) for DCM 1 are sometimes free of cardio.

This is what we've tried to make clear--that testing for DCM 1 and 2 is not any sort of guarantee that a dog of a breed where DCM is generally caused genetically will or will not end up with DCM.

While it is possible that Dobermans who are regarded as one of the genetically at risk for DCM breeds might also be taurine deficient. This is not as likely as in breeds where they found that taurine deficiency (and often when the dog was being fed grain free foods) was the cause and in those cases it appears that, that kind of diet related DCM is reversible.

Have you heard from the cardiologist that he/she was surprised at this--the cardiologists I have dealt with have always been careful to explain the differences between genetic based DCM and dietary DCM.

Let us know what the test results show--there have been an occasional Doberman who was taurine difficient but that is not generally the cause of DCM in the breed.

dobebug
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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 04:30 PM
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My experience with DCM was much more typical, Cayenne was diagnosed at 7.5 years old with congestive heart failure (CHF) due to breathing difficulties. Her cardiologist at the time recommended getting her on medication as soon as possible and also stated she would only have about 3 months. She actually ended up living two years after she was diagnosed on the medications. And while we cherished every day that she was still with us, it was a very expensive experience. I'm just putting in my two cents because we would definitely have made some different decisions with respect to some of her other health issues if we hadn't been convinced by the vet that her time would be so short.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.
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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-21-2019, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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I cannot remember what I posted here or on the Dobiehealth board. My Vet was not shocked by the negative test, just surprised. At this point, I want answers. Not because it will necessarily help Marcus but, because it may help the breed, my Vet and anyone else who may be interested.
She has been in discussion with a cardiologist at UC Davis. We are going to have Marcus tested for taurine absorption deficiency. It is a total long shot. And, I know that I am looking for an answer where there probably is none. But, I am going to do this anyway.

I am so angry. I purchased this dog in good faith. He has had problems from day one. Would I have returned him when he come ups with pneumonia after I had him 2 days? Never. He is my dog. But, the fact that this or any breeder for that matter can so casually ignore me when I tell them that the dog that I purchased from them and made part of my family is ill and has been ill from day one makes me furious.
They are breeding his father again as we speak, with little regard for the welfare of those new puppies.
When I found out how cheap a holier monitor is, I fund it totally irresponsible that any breeder would not own one and test their dogs on a regular basis. It is the cost of ONE PUPPY. How can anyone be so greedy. It is beyond comprehension to me. Sorry..venting
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-21-2019, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
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I believe that there is a new law in the state of Tennessee protecting dog owners in cases like this. I am trying to wade through it. If that is the case, I am going to think about going after them for his medical bills.
Just the fact that they sold him to us when he was only 6 weeks old, I have found put on this board was illegal.
I have probably repeated myself..sorry.
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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-25-2019, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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We received some minor good news about Marcus today.
He has put on 8 pounds since we began medicating him for DCM a couple of weeks ago.
We have not changed the amount of food that we are feeding him.
He is getting his 2 heart medications every 12 hours
I had no idea how sick he was. Comparing him today to just 2 weeks ago, he is a different dog. His energy level is much higher, and he jus seems happier. That part may be wishful thinking, but as I look back on the past several months, he wined a lot. I had idea why.

We will re-do the holier at 3 months.

For now, I am managing to get through the day without crying. At least he is feeling good and playing
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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 02:26 PM
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I lost my CZ to DCM and he was very young as well. I am linking that thread here since it recounts my experience with the meds. What an awful disease. My eyes start tearing up and my heart feels tight every time I hear those letters and remember what I went through.

https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberma...03213-dcm.html
https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberma...03213-dcm.html
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