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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanS View Post
Thanks everyone for the helpful responses! Will definitely get another holter done on her in 6 months time, and an echo if needed based on the holter result. Will also talk to my cardiologist about the tape thing, as it was really uncomfortable for Mika.
I would also like to start her on fish oil, sheís on hemp seed oil and omega blend oil at the moment, but does get fresh fish daily. But my vet say additional fish oil wonít harm. Anyone know whatís the recommended dose? I want to give her this fish oil: https://www.blackmores.com.au/produc...inary-strength
I'd check with your vet, of course, by my vet recommended my dogs get 1000 EPA of fish oil daily, and 400 IUs of vitamin E with that.


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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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Hey everyone, just received the full report from the cardiologist:

monitor results: 24 hr reading
QRS complexes: 105775 Sinus beats: 105760
HR
Average HR: 73 bpm Max HR: 196 bpm Min HR: 36 bpm
VPC's: 15
Single VPCs: 8
Bigeminy episodes: 0
Trigeminy episodes: 0
Couplets: 2
Runs: 0
Idioventricular episodes (<160bpm): 1, consisting of 3 beats.
Supraventricular ectopic beats: 0
Tachycardia episodes (>180bpm): 1, totalling 22.4 seconds. While Holter was being placed (Mika very stressed)
Pauses (>3s): 1, lasting 3.0 seconds.

Outcome
Assessment: While the number of ventricular premature contractions remains well within normal limits (<50/ 24 hrs is normal), the presence of 2 couplets and one idioventricular run is concerning. No treatment is required at this time but a recheck echocardiogram and 24 hr Holter in 12 months (sedation WILL be required for the echocardiogram) is recommended.

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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I'd check with your vet, of course, by my vet recommended my dogs get 1000 EPA of fish oil daily, and 400 IUs of vitamin E with that.
This is close to what I give--but decades ago the first vet who recommended fish oil plus Vitamin E said to give 200 iu Vitamin E for every 1,000 mg of fish oil (what this equals in EPA will vary from brand to brand). That was for coat--not cardio.

So I start puppies older than 6 months at 1,000 mg fish oil to 200 iu of Vitamin E. They get 1 fish oil capsule with each meal (2 meals a day) and one Vitamin E capsule with one meal (almost all Vitamin E comes as 400 iu capsules. Many years later a vet cardiologist told me that while fish oil and Vitamine E are great for the coat they don't actually "prevent" cardio issues but if there are cardio issues present it will help to control them. I have raised the amount of fish oil/Vitamin E when Holters have indicated that VPC's numbers are rising. My nearly 14 year old now gets 2 1,000 mg fish oil and one Vitamin E (400iu) capsule with each meal.

Just an FYI--seems to work for me and my dogs.

And I still would avoid sedating for any part of a cardio exam--either echo's or Holters.

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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 11:59 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
This is close to what I give--but decades ago the first vet who recommended fish oil plus Vitamin E said to give 200 iu Vitamin E for every 1,000 mg of fish oil (what this equals in EPA will vary from brand to brand). That was for coat--not cardio.

So I start puppies older than 6 months at 1,000 mg fish oil to 200 iu of Vitamin E. They get 1 fish oil capsule with each meal (2 meals a day) and one Vitamin E capsule with one meal (almost all Vitamin E comes as 400 iu capsules. Many years later a vet cardiologist told me that while fish oil and Vitamine E are great for the coat they don't actually "prevent" cardio issues but if there are cardio issues present it will help to control them. I have raised the amount of fish oil/Vitamin E when Holters have indicated that VPC's numbers are rising. My nearly 14 year old now gets 2 1,000 mg fish oil and one Vitamin E (400iu) capsule with each meal.

Just an FYI--seems to work for me and my dogs.

And I still would avoid sedating for any part of a cardio exam--either echo's or Holters.

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Thanks. Have you tried CBD oil? I heard it helps with stress and heart issues. Itís quite difficult to get CBD here in Australia without prescription, but I have a holistic vet consultation next week, that vet is able to source CBD oil. So I was thinking of hopefully starting Mika on this, hopefully it works on reducing her stress at the vets too. Going to start her on that fish oil soon aswell as my vet was able to order them in for me this Friday.
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanS View Post
Thanks. Have you tried CBD oil? I heard it helps with stress and heart issues. Itís quite difficult to get CBD here in Australia without prescription, but I have a holistic vet consultation next week, that vet is able to source CBD oil. So I was thinking of hopefully starting Mika on this, hopefully it works on reducing her stress at the vets too. Going to start her on that fish oil soon aswell as my vet was able to order them in for me this Friday.
No I haven't tried CBD oil. I know that it is not supposed to contain any of the active ingredient in marijuana but I also know that not all CBD oil is purified sufficiently. (Oregon is a state where marijuana, CBD oil and products made from either (intended for ingestion) are legal So we see a lot of information about how intended products turn out.

I've worked for a vet clinic full time and more recently part time for nearly 17 years and I've seen marijuana cases come in and it makes the dogs very sick if they ingest enough of it. So I don't even try any of the related products. There are legal drugs that don't make dogs sick and can be given in doses appropriate for the desired result and as I said earlier--you can sometimes work with training to relieve or reduce anxiety.

I was looking at the results of the Holter and having looked at Holter results on Dobermans for twenty years I was pretty surprised (again) that the (cardiologist/vet) was so concerned about the single run and 8 VPC's and wanted sedate him.

On at least two of my Dobermans (one of them is the dog who is nearly 14) while the echo was being done we could watch an occasional VPC pop up. One of the dogs was the one I did lose to sudden death but the number of PVC's and runs and supraventricular ectopic beats kept getting higher and higher and he was nearly 10 before I lost him--he had an echo and Holter five months before--still wasn't bad enough to start medicating with anti-arrhythmics (which have their own risks). But if you are concerned about VPC's, singlets, doublets or triplels and runs--you sedate and you don't usually then get to see those while the echo is being done.

Just my opinion--I'm not vet and certainly not a cardiologist but you see enough of this over time and you end up forming some opinions.

Good luck with all of this...

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post #31 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
I was looking at the results of the Holter and having looked at Holter results on Dobermans for twenty years I was pretty surprised (again) that the (cardiologist/vet) was so concerned about the single run and 8 VPC's and wanted sedate him.

Just my opinion--I'm not vet and certainly not a cardiologist but you see enough of this over time and you end up forming some opinions.

Good luck with all of this...

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i
Thanks for the info. Yeah itís frustrating as that is the report the cardiologist sent to our vet. She keeps insisting on the sedation for the echo as she said sheís just too stressed to the point she feels sorry for her. And I donít understand that if sheís so concerned of the result why did she not recommend to re-holter in 6 months time instead.

Guess we will see how the holter goes in 6 months time (have to convince her about the tape too), and if an echo is needed aswell then Iíll try and persuade her and see if I can be in the room to calm her... it sucks that we only have one cardiologist here and itís so far.

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post #32 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 08:54 AM Thread Starter
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Hey guys... I might be a bit paranoid... but just now while sleeping, Mika suddenly starts to cough (sounds dry), she did 3-4 coughs and ended with a gag. Did this two times, switched a position and went back to sleep... her sleeping breathing rate is still normal - 16-18bpm.

Coincidently yesterday morning she had a bout of nausea (hard swallowing and grass eating, and also coughed once during the swallowing episode) which I contribute to either the sudden lunge she made the night before when she saw a cat on our walk, thus jerking on her collar, or the addition of fish oil the night before (I probably added too much too quickly), contacted vet who say it could be throat inflammation from the acid reflux or from the collar jerking and that it should heal with time. The hard swallowing lasted till about noon yesterday, and then slowly subsided. She was all good today, and then the cough happened, she was also doing a few hard swallow/gulps again just now, maybe it was due to the throat inflammation? It’s been exactly one month from our cardiologist visit, is it too early to start worrying about possible CHF cough?

P.s she had a similar episode about 3 months ago one night, woke up in the middle of the night, cough and gagged for a minute, and was all good since.


Last edited by OceanS; 09-26-2019 at 09:19 AM.
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post #33 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 08:46 PM
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My previous post has disappeared for some reason

I used cbd with my old gal when she got older and had some arthritis in her legs. Her vet was aware and was fine with it.

What's very important when using cbd is that it must be non-psychoactive so there is absolutely no thc in it. It was hard for me to get here in Canada but I had my supplier. The holistic vet will be able to get you the appropriate source.

What is also worth noting is that it is not cheap if you buy a very concentrated amount. You want the highest concentration you can get so it is the most effective. A very small bottle with a dropper cost me $125 Canadian but a little goes a long way.

Hope this posts this time.



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post #34 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
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My previous post has disappeared for some reason

I used cbd with my old gal when she got older and had some arthritis in her legs. Her vet was aware and was fine with it.

What's very important when using cbd is that it must be non-psychoactive so there is absolutely no thc in it. It was hard for me to get here in Canada but I had my supplier. The holistic vet will be able to get you the appropriate source.

What is also worth noting is that it is not cheap if you buy a very concentrated amount. You want the highest concentration you can get so it is the most effective. A very small bottle with a dropper cost me $125 Canadian but a little goes a long way.

Hope this posts this time.
Thanks for the info. I will have a look online to see what’s available. My holistic vet also recommended CBD oil, he said it’s good for “everything” including her arthritis. He told me he recommend either an Australian based brand, NuLeaf or Charlotte Web (the pet version for NuLeaf and CW brands), but they all contain less than 0.3% THC.

P.s another update as per my previous post - no more coughing since last night’s episode, so I guess she just choked on her saliva or something... playing and eating normally. I’m just so paranoid when it comes to her lol.

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post #35 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-15-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanS View Post
Hey guys... I might be a bit paranoid... but just now while sleeping, Mika suddenly starts to cough (sounds dry), she did 3-4 coughs and ended with a gag. Did this two times, switched a position and went back to sleep... her sleeping breathing rate is still normal - 16-18bpm.

Coincidently yesterday morning she had a bout of nausea (hard swallowing and grass eating, and also coughed once during the swallowing episode) which I contribute to either the sudden lunge she made the night before when she saw a cat on our walk, thus jerking on her collar, or the addition of fish oil the night before (I probably added too much too quickly), contacted vet who say it could be throat inflammation from the acid reflux or from the collar jerking and that it should heal with time. The hard swallowing lasted till about noon yesterday, and then slowly subsided. She was all good today, and then the cough happened, she was also doing a few hard swallow/gulps again just now, maybe it was due to the throat inflammation? Itís been exactly one month from our cardiologist visit, is it too early to start worrying about possible CHF cough?

P.s she had a similar episode about 3 months ago one night, woke up in the middle of the night, cough and gagged for a minute, and was all good since.

I'll be honest - this would worry me. I'd want an echo done (preferably without sedation) as soon as possible. IME, DCM stimulated coughing and gagging doesn't necessarily go on endlessly. If it is the beginnings of CHF, it can pop up seemingly out of nowhere but they'll shift positions, stand up, prop themselves up or whatever and they're able to go back to sleep. That she's also shown recent nausea sets off alarm bells for me.

Once DCM has been indicated, its my belief that its never too early to start watching for CHF. I'm not saying that you should stress yourself out looking for things that aren't there, but remain aware of what you're dealing with and try not to downplay additional signs of disease. Meaning, you don't need to treat your dog like they're made of glass but don't get too comfortable either.

The disease progresses at different rates in different dogs. IME, the disease itself can develop rather suddenly and CHF can be quick to follow, even when you medicate (because there are some very unlucky dogs who don't seem to respond much at all to treatment).



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