Here is a professionally produced documentary that delves deeply into DCM, with extended interviews at University of Munich. I was shocked to learn that as many as 58% of all Dobermans die from DCM and that breeders are doing essentially nothing to stop it. This video is well worth watching, for all Doberman owners, not just those who have lost dogs to DCM. This is the link:
I'm going to guess since this is the University of Munich that it is aimed at European breeders. And even so I wouldn't really say that breeders are doing nothing... It's mostly the DV's fault I imagine - their "study" on DCM was a joke, they closed it after 3 years and declared DCM wasn't a problem in the breed, at least not in Germany (but strangely, if an American dog wishes the ZTP they are required to submit heart results. Only American dogs. Any other country doesn't need to test the heart) and that it was therefore not necessary to make heart testing mandatory or further investigate.
To be honest the DV has been making a lot of decisions in recent years that seem to not be in the best interest of the breed.
Well, if the breeders say the average incidence of DCM in the general population is less than 10% when its really closer to 50%, and refuse to test their dames and sires annually, and test the pups once, when they are too young for the test to detect any symptoms, then, yes, I would define that as doing nothing.
Hello. Yes, they talk about the three year study in the video. I stand by my generalization about breeders; most say the average incidence of DCM in the general population is less than 10% when its really closer to 50%, they refuse to test their dames and sires annually, they test the pups once, when they are too young for the test to detect any symptoms, so then, yes, I would define that as doing nothing. In the video you can see breeders and their organizations refuse to allow annual testing, even when the cost would be paid by the univesity free to the breeder. I am not aware of any studies that show a significant difference in DCM between Euro and American dobes; if there were differences I thihk there would be imperical evidence, at least.
Hello. Yes, they talk about the three year study in the video. I stand by my generalization about breeders; most say the average incidence of DCM in the general population is less than 10% when its really closer to 50%, they refuse to test their dames and sires annually, they test the pups once, when they are too young for the test to detect any symptoms, so then, yes, I would define that as doing nothing. In the video you can see breeders and their organizations refuse to allow annual testing, even when the cost would be paid by the univesity free to the breeder. I am not aware of any studies that show a significant difference in DCM between Euro and American dobes; if there were differences I thihk there would be imperical evidence, at least.
I'd really like to know what breeders you are dealing with, because this is NOT the norm among reputable North American (USA & Canada) breeders at all! Any good breeder you talk to here is going to tell you that DCM in some form will be the cause of death in about 50% of all Dobermans no matter where they come from. Good reputable breeders do regular cardiac testing on their breeding dogs..... I test all of my Dobermans no matter if they are bred or not. However, it is true that a dog that tests normal at age 2-6 (normal breeding years for bitches), may develop cardio at a later date. Ages 6-8 seem to be the age when cardio often shows up if you are testing..... unfortunately, we can't wait till a bitch is over the age of 6 to breed. We look at the pedigree for a low incidence of close up cardio - but no pedigree is free from cardio, so there will always be some unknowns when breeding.
Maybe breeders in Chili say it's 10% but I don't know any reputable breeders in the US that state it's anything less than 50%.
What's sad is there are breeders that claim to be reputable that don't do cardio testing. I'm not a fan of them and I won't send puppy buyers their way but they are out there.
Yeah, it is definitely not the case for reputable breeder in North America. Even those who don't actually test but are supposedly reputable will readily say "around half of dobermans will develop DCM".
I'm not a breeder, (not yet anyway) but I had my girl holtered for the first time at 3 last december, and her first echo at 4 this past March, and I intend on continuing to holter yearly if not twice yearly since I'm lucky enough to have a friend who bought a Holter I can use. I will also try to echo yearly because I think that information is important. I've also tested my bitch for the PDK4 and the DCM2 and am sharing that information with the various projects looking at the genetic diversity and longevity in the breed, as well as trying to keep them UTD on her Holter and Echo reports.
I also think as a matter of principle it's important for that information to be out there for anyone that might be researching her lines or those of close relatives.
I keep trying to coax her littermate's owner into getting him tested especially because their grandsire (direct paternal sire) died suddenly of DCM at age 7, and early detection is the best shot, as well as once again being relevant to pedigree research, genetic research and information.
Knowledge is power, and the ethical preservation breeders don't shy away from that. But it's a little bit more across the board in Europe. A European (who has two bitches from American lines) recently told me that in Europe many people think American dobes are less healthy because we North Americans health test so much (they figure we do more testing because our dogs are more sickly... I don't understand that sort of backwards thinking, healthy or not why wouldn't you want the most information possible?). But even so it does a disservice to generalise and say all breeders or all european breeders think this way.
I did not say all, I said most. Which is generalizing. Yes. And from my experience, correctly so. The fact that the incidence of DCM is at 50% or above over decades is proof on its face that most breeders are not doing their part in testing, and that buyers are being told 10% is the actual rate. Anyone making a 1000 dollar investment in a pet would respond differently when given the probabilities of 10% vs. 50%+. That seems obvious. Buyers accept dobes with no testing because they are being told 10%, which is a probability they can live with going into the commitment. So, I stand by my comment but acknowledge you are a notable and praiseworthy exception.
Not only do you seem woefully uninformed about breeders, but heck, a LOT of good owners are also well informed and doing regular testing, too.
I test both of my dogs with an echo and 24 hour holter exam every year, and report their results both publicly (on Dobequest) as well as to their breeders, so they have that information for their breeding programs so they can make the best possible decisions going forward.
Maybe a forum in your own area of the world would be the place to "educate" people, but you may want to be sure you have correct information first.
The fact that the incidence of DCM is at 50% or above over decades is proof on its face that most breeders are not doing their part in testing, and that buyers are being told 10% is the actual rate. Anyone making a 1000 dollar investment in a pet would respond differently when given the probabilities of 10% vs. 50%+. That seems obvious. Buyers accept dobes with no testing because they are being told 10%, which is a probability they can live with going into the commitment. So, I stand by my comment but acknowledge you are an expert and an exception.
If the majority of your experience is that breeders are in denial and/or ignoring the problem of DCM in the breed, I would urge you to elevate your personal standards for who you're willing to associate with in the breed.
Because what you're describing is the actions and behavior of sh*t breeders, not all breeders and certainly not good ones (of which there are MANY).
Our only dog who died from DCM related causes (V-tach/Sudden Death syndrome) came from a very reputable breeder who seriously health tests her sire and dam prospects to the nth degree. This includes complete cardio via 24hr Holter and Echo.
Still... When one thinks of the age that these dogs are bred, what are the chances of predicting DCM regardless of the clear bill of health given at 2 or 3 years old?
My current youngest had a full cardio workup at 3 yo. His cardiologist said that all looked very good, but that I should bring him back at 5 yo as that is a better age for preliminary diagnosis of heart disease. That is what will happen. Very soon.
If we eliminated all breeding between Dobermans unless they had no DCM related occurrences in their pedigree, there would be no Dobermans.
I personally prefer to look for longevity in a pedigree. My McCoy has a good chance at a long life. His mother is doing well and his grandfather (bug's Toad) is 13. His sire died from unrelated causes (bloat).
If he is diagnosed with DCM and caught early, the possibilities of a reasonable life have been greatly improved.
Our boy who came minutes from death with his initial episode of SDS, recovered and with a med regime, lived to be a senior. He did eventually succumb to DCM. But it was quick and seemingly painless. This was 7 years ago.
DCM is a fact of life in this breed.
Prepare for it
Research your prospective breeder. Research your potential pups pedigree. .
Get a very good vet whom you trust who is very familiar with Dobermans.
Test your dog regularly as recommended by your vet or someone who is very knowledgeable about this breed.
I have said this many times, but I will reiterate. What one pays initially for a puppy from a litter, well bred, from a decent and well known breeder is a drop in the bucket with respect to expenditures one might expect over the lifetime of the dog.
My youngest is the joy of my life. Except for typical puppy things, he has never been sick a day in his life. His temperament is perfect for me. He is the 3rd dog we have gotten from the same breeder.
I wanted a pup sometime in the summer of 2015. 2 days before Thanksgiving 2014, I got a call from Michelle saying that a committed buyer had to back out because of unforeseen circumstances. Did I want the pup? I was thrilled. I knew the litter (Jewellia x Raden). I said YES! The only caveat was that I had to drive down to Southern Oregon and pick him up within about 36 hours. Hopped in the truck and met her the following morning. What a wonderful experience. I was actually able to assist her in removing McCoy's stitches. I got a chance to see all the kids pig piling and going crazy. Fun!
So McCoy was $2500. I didn't blink an eye. I have already talked to her about my next Dobe. We don't ever talk price. Just my needs and her comfort with selling me another Doberman. I expect to pay about $3000-$3500. Perfect....Whatever...
Edit to say: If you want a potentially healthy happy pup, do your research and don't scrimp on the front end.
Check out the thread running within this forum titled ...”Multiple females in the Household” .
Make sure you start at the beginning of the thread so you can understand the goals of this person that wants to begin breeding dobermans.
Personally I have always “thought it would be fun to breed dobermans” but through this forum I have learned dreams are not always reality.
It’s hard work with no guarantees.
Your efforts are needed on that thread .....check it out ... in the name of creating awareness ....this person might learn from your experiences.
Give it a go.........
The folks you are writing with on this thread are very experienced and reputable breeders. So awareness is already established.
Please help us out with the other thread .....as we are all trying to create awareness with this member.
Today was my first time watching that video and I found some of Steven's conclusions faulty--eye of the beholder and all that. The members/breeders of the DV were the ones that demanded that a study be done. From the timing, I would assume it would have been happening a few years after the results from the Munich clinic were being published which also clearly gathered its data over several years. However, breeders are not scientists. Chances are lack of funding is what lead to the study ending after 3 years--science is expensive, and from the documentary's description the study was not well designed. Also the decision to 'restart' the study in Italy was portrayed as "suspicious" and/or a delaying tactic on par with similar decisions in the past in other fields to delay acknowledging and dealing with a problem (aka big tobacco). But the decision could have been made to independently verify the results obtained at Munich which is quite common. And to give the organizations involved time to decide how to deal with the disease.
It's pretty clear based upon those interviewed that the desire to improve the health of the breed started with responsible breeders who wanted to know why their dogs were dropping dead. And that the current rate of testing (aka those participating by getting their dogs cardio and DNA-tested) is also being driven by breeders since your average 'I want a puppy!' buyer has no idea what health testing they should be looking for. The video does NOT conclude that breeders are doing nothing to stop it since the breeders that were interviewed that provide about a third of the footage were clearly very active and putting a lot of work into cardio testing. Basically they seemed like the European equivalent of MaryandDobes.
Also I haven't got a North American pedigreed dobe, but there are at least three European databases where breeders can enter their pedigrees including titles earned, age attained and cause of death for at least 3 generations. If you're buying a car, you should at a minimum research the model and year to find out if there's any issues. At least as much effort should go into researching a puppy's breed and pedigree so you have an idea of what you're getting into. Pedigrees also provide an insight into how much time and effort have been invested in the dam/sire and/or grandam/grandsire. Titles provide an insight into the dog's potential energy levels/intelligence/conformation. I purchased a registered 2 year old European dobe six months ago. A search of her pedigree shows several of her ancestors had BH/IPO ratings. A little more research into those titles shows she comes from very bright, active working dogs which explains a lot about her energy levels and temperament. It also shows her sire died at 7 years 6 months from pancreatic and kidney failure so yearly blood tests to monitor her pancreatic/kidney function might be a good idea.
I'm not sure what the equivalent North American websites are, but responsible breeders clearly are trying to be honest about their lines and exchange information to improve the breed.
You are talking to folks, many of whom have dealt with Dilated Cardiomyopathy, myself included.
It is a very touchy and emotional subject.
There are many folks here who keep this disease constantly in the forefront of their mind.
We are not ignorant and the responses that you are generally getting are going to be based on research and personal experience.
Let's make this a nice and educational thread, not an "I am done with this" thread.
OK?
John
Portland OR
and... The Butcher (RIP 2013... via DCM SDS v-tach)
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
1.8M posts
53.7K members
Since 2005
A forum community dedicated to doberman owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, health, behavior, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!