Must watch documentary about DCM in Dobes - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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Must watch documentary about DCM in Dobes

Here is a professionally produced documentary that delves deeply into DCM, with extended interviews at University of Munich. I was shocked to learn that as many as 58% of all Dobermans die from DCM and that breeders are doing essentially nothing to stop it. This video is well worth watching, for all Doberman owners, not just those who have lost dogs to DCM. This is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL4wuv26068
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 08:48 PM
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I guess you're just quoting from the documentary (which I have not seen) but I really think it's unfair to say breeders are doing nothing.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
I guess you're just quoting from the documentary (which I have not seen) but I really think it's unfair to say breeders are doing nothing.
I'm going to guess since this is the University of Munich that it is aimed at European breeders. And even so I wouldn't really say that breeders are doing nothing... It's mostly the DV's fault I imagine - their "study" on DCM was a joke, they closed it after 3 years and declared DCM wasn't a problem in the breed, at least not in Germany (but strangely, if an American dog wishes the ZTP they are required to submit heart results. Only American dogs. Any other country doesn't need to test the heart) and that it was therefore not necessary to make heart testing mandatory or further investigate.

To be honest the DV has been making a lot of decisions in recent years that seem to not be in the best interest of the breed.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 08:52 AM Thread Starter
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Well, if the breeders say the average incidence of DCM in the general population is less than 10% when its really closer to 50%, and refuse to test their dames and sires annually, and test the pups once, when they are too young for the test to detect any symptoms, then, yes, I would define that as doing nothing.
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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Hello. Yes, they talk about the three year study in the video. I stand by my generalization about breeders; most say the average incidence of DCM in the general population is less than 10% when its really closer to 50%, they refuse to test their dames and sires annually, they test the pups once, when they are too young for the test to detect any symptoms, so then, yes, I would define that as doing nothing. In the video you can see breeders and their organizations refuse to allow annual testing, even when the cost would be paid by the univesity free to the breeder. I am not aware of any studies that show a significant difference in DCM between Euro and American dobes; if there were differences I thihk there would be imperical evidence, at least.
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 09:07 AM
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What breeders are you talking to where you get these stats?
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenroberto View Post
Hello. Yes, they talk about the three year study in the video. I stand by my generalization about breeders; most say the average incidence of DCM in the general population is less than 10% when its really closer to 50%, they refuse to test their dames and sires annually, they test the pups once, when they are too young for the test to detect any symptoms, so then, yes, I would define that as doing nothing. In the video you can see breeders and their organizations refuse to allow annual testing, even when the cost would be paid by the univesity free to the breeder. I am not aware of any studies that show a significant difference in DCM between Euro and American dobes; if there were differences I thihk there would be imperical evidence, at least.
I'd really like to know what breeders you are dealing with, because this is NOT the norm among reputable North American (USA & Canada) breeders at all! Any good breeder you talk to here is going to tell you that DCM in some form will be the cause of death in about 50% of all Dobermans no matter where they come from. Good reputable breeders do regular cardiac testing on their breeding dogs..... I test all of my Dobermans no matter if they are bred or not. However, it is true that a dog that tests normal at age 2-6 (normal breeding years for bitches), may develop cardio at a later date. Ages 6-8 seem to be the age when cardio often shows up if you are testing..... unfortunately, we can't wait till a bitch is over the age of 6 to breed. We look at the pedigree for a low incidence of close up cardio - but no pedigree is free from cardio, so there will always be some unknowns when breeding.

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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 03:04 PM
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That video is 6 years old.

Maybe breeders in Chili say it's 10% but I don't know any reputable breeders in the US that state it's anything less than 50%.

What's sad is there are breeders that claim to be reputable that don't do cardio testing. I'm not a fan of them and I won't send puppy buyers their way but they are out there.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenroberto View Post
Hello. Yes, they talk about the three year study in the video. I stand by my generalization about breeders; most say the average incidence of DCM in the general population is less than 10% when its really closer to 50%, they refuse to test their dames and sires annually, they test the pups once, when they are too young for the test to detect any symptoms, so then, yes, I would define that as doing nothing. In the video you can see breeders and their organizations refuse to allow annual testing, even when the cost would be paid by the univesity free to the breeder. I am not aware of any studies that show a significant difference in DCM between Euro and American dobes; if there were differences I thihk there would be imperical evidence, at least.
How can you stand by a generalization? From one movie? Have you actually talked with any Doberman breeders?

I mean, I'm a breeder. My Dobermans were all in the Doberman cardiac study at the U of Guelph in Ontario, Canada from 1985 until it ended last year, so my own personal dogs through those years (Rebel, Sadie, Ember, Wish, Wonder, Rory, Karma, Zeke, Rocket, Kizzy, Shelby, Royal, Moxie, Copper, Wicca) ALL went every year until they died (unless I deemed them not well enough for the trip like when they were 12, for eg. They had their regular cardiac ultrasounds and ecgs there, and any other experimental testing they were doing like when they were developing the troponin test. I was pretty rabid about urging my local puppy owners to take part as well so Henna, Dionne, Taz, Jessie, Farah, Bentley, Sammy, Blush, Maya, Jax and Lola were also taking part. When I moved to Kentucky, I drove 10 hours back with my eldest Dobermans so that they didn't miss their cardiac exams! My most recent cardiac exams were on Moxie, who is nearly 12 (not exactly young so that I can hide symptoms!) and Wicca. I used to Holter 15-20 Dobermans for the Guelph study back in the day, and then later purchased my own so that I could offer it to my puppy owners as well as use it myself. It's been shipped to New Brunswick for Rusty, it's been out to Minnesota for Richter, I drove 2 hours today to get it back from where I sent it for Jax. When the PDK4 test became available, I tested all of my own personal Dobermans, and informed my owners about the test - a few tested. I will be honest that I have only tested the youngest one for the dcm2 DNA test, though. I didn't really see the point of doing it on my 10+ year olds when the test came out. Seemed they were already beating the odds, knock on wood.

I usually offer in conversations about dcm that "upwards of 55% of Dobermans acquire dcm". That is my usual quote. No whitewashing there. I didn't pick that figure up out of thin air. It's what I hear other breeders saying, too.
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 08:07 PM
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Yeah, it is definitely not the case for reputable breeder in North America. Even those who don't actually test but are supposedly reputable will readily say "around half of dobermans will develop DCM".

I'm not a breeder, (not yet anyway) but I had my girl holtered for the first time at 3 last december, and her first echo at 4 this past March, and I intend on continuing to holter yearly if not twice yearly since I'm lucky enough to have a friend who bought a Holter I can use. I will also try to echo yearly because I think that information is important. I've also tested my bitch for the PDK4 and the DCM2 and am sharing that information with the various projects looking at the genetic diversity and longevity in the breed, as well as trying to keep them UTD on her Holter and Echo reports.

I also think as a matter of principle it's important for that information to be out there for anyone that might be researching her lines or those of close relatives.

I keep trying to coax her littermate's owner into getting him tested especially because their grandsire (direct paternal sire) died suddenly of DCM at age 7, and early detection is the best shot, as well as once again being relevant to pedigree research, genetic research and information.

Knowledge is power, and the ethical preservation breeders don't shy away from that. But it's a little bit more across the board in Europe. A European (who has two bitches from American lines) recently told me that in Europe many people think American dobes are less healthy because we North Americans health test so much (they figure we do more testing because our dogs are more sickly... I don't understand that sort of backwards thinking, healthy or not why wouldn't you want the most information possible?). But even so it does a disservice to generalise and say all breeders or all european breeders think this way.
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 09:19 PM
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Not only do you seem woefully uninformed about breeders, but heck, a LOT of good owners are also well informed and doing regular testing, too.

I test both of my dogs with an echo and 24 hour holter exam every year, and report their results both publicly (on Dobequest) as well as to their breeders, so they have that information for their breeding programs so they can make the best possible decisions going forward.

Maybe a forum in your own area of the world would be the place to "educate" people, but you may want to be sure you have correct information first.
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