Must watch documentary about DCM in Dobes - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 06:21 PM
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What breeders have you spoken to that affirm your assertion about deaths/percentages? I asked this before.

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Originally Posted by stevenroberto View Post
I am seeking progress in getting that probability down to the 10% that 70 per cent of the breeders I have spoken with in USA, S America, Asia, and Europe have ALL assured me is true, when in fact it is not. t.
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenroberto View Post
It is not a movie, it is a documentary. And it corresponds to my own personal experience in SE Asia, Europe, North and South America. What has changed in the past six years since the documentary? I would say, not much. The fact that the incidence of DCM is at 50% or above over decades is proof on its face that most breeders are not doing their part in testing, and that buyers are being told 10% is the actual rate. Anyone making a 1000 dollar investment in a pet would respond differently when given the probabilities of 10% vs. 50%+. That seems obvious. Buyers accept dobes with no testing because they are being told 10%, which is a probability they can live with going into the commitment. So, I stand by my comment but acknowledge you are an exception.
What seems obvious to me is, first of all, that Dobermans are much more than $1000 investments when you buy from responsible breeders, so perhaps that is part of your misconception. If you're talking to breeders who charge $1000 for their dogs, you're right, they probably aren't doing their part in testing and telling.

I live in a world where I pay much more than that for responsibly bred Dobermans, and I deal with breeders that are realistic about the problem we face and tell the truth about it. They test and they tell. And I don't have any problem finding them. I'm sorry your reality has been different? But you seem to be on a mandate to educate us here about something we ALREADY know.

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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:10 PM
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I have said this many times, but I will reiterate. What one pays initially for a puppy from a litter, well bred, from a decent and well known breeder is a drop in the bucket with respect to expenditures one might expect over the lifetime of the dog.

My youngest is the joy of my life. Except for typical puppy things, he has never been sick a day in his life. His temperament is perfect for me. He is the 3rd dog we have gotten from the same breeder.

I wanted a pup sometime in the summer of 2015. 2 days before Thanksgiving 2014, I got a call from Michelle saying that a committed buyer had to back out because of unforeseen circumstances. Did I want the pup? I was thrilled. I knew the litter (Jewellia x Raden). I said YES! The only caveat was that I had to drive down to Southern Oregon and pick him up within about 36 hours. Hopped in the truck and met her the following morning. What a wonderful experience. I was actually able to assist her in removing McCoy's stitches. I got a chance to see all the kids pig piling and going crazy. Fun!

So McCoy was $2500. I didn't blink an eye. I have already talked to her about my next Dobe. We don't ever talk price. Just my needs and her comfort with selling me another Doberman. I expect to pay about $3000-$3500. Perfect....Whatever...

Edit to say: If you want a potentially healthy happy pup, do your research and don't scrimp on the front end.

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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenroberto View Post
Please do not be condesending; I understand the disease well. The fact that someone does not agree with you does not make them stupid, except perhaps in your own mind. I am not seeking a solution, I am seeking progress in getting that probability down to the 10% that 70 per cent of the breeders I have spoken with in USA, S America, Asia, and Europe have ALL assured me is true, when in fact it is not. Neither am I angry; I am trying to raise awareness and create discussion. Progress will come with sacrafice on the part of breeders and increased efforts. Probably also laws being passed. I dont see any of that happening except on an ad hoc basis, and that is my point.
You think I was being condescending?? I respectfully will tell you that I'm not. Maybe there is a language barrier in the translation, and as my spanish is poor, I can't help that.
I can also tell you that I don't know what help passing laws would do when we are dealing with a disease that is carried in every line of Dobermans and is probably made up on dozens of genes. I'm sorry if many of the breeders you have talked to are not honest about the disease, I would tell you that you need to talk to a better quality of breeders. As in many things, there are plenty of dishonest people out there that will tell you what they think you want to hear. I would not consider any of those people to be reputable breeders. I've only bred 3 litters so far in my 26+ years in this breed. I've done all the testing, but still explain to every buyer the reality of DCM in this breed. I tell every buyer that 50% of Dobermans will die of heart related disease, and it could be at age 11+ or it could be at 4. I do the testing and try to avoid DCM close up in the pedigree - but no breeder can avoid it altogether. I candidly tell every potential buyer that if they 100% don't want to risk DCM, then they need to find a different breed. That is the reality in the breed I love. I keep in touch with everyone and am always available. No matter what we do, dogs die.... and too many Dobermans die of DCM. It's the reality we all live with. In my 26 years with this breed, there has been a ton of discussion, tons of testing, and tons of research into the disease. The progress that has been made is mostly in having the tools available to diagnose the disease earlier and extending their life with medication. Testing also removes dogs that have occult DCM from the breeding pool - but diagnoses unfortunately does not usually raise its head till the age of 6-8.... long after the optimum age to breed a dog. Good breeders are already making the sacrifices you seem to think we need to make. Imagine spending the thousands of dollars it takes to show a dog to its championship only to find out there is a health issue that will keep you from breeding that dog. Good breeders are never in it for the money - indeed, showing and breeding dogs as a hobby is a money pit.
I'm just really at a loss as to what you expect from the people on this list. The vast majority of them do not breed, and those of us who do are pretty much doing everything that can be done to lessen the chances of DCM already..... while realizing that we can't eradicate it.
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-06-2019, 04:31 AM
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Stevenroberto:

Check out the thread running within this forum titled ...”Multiple females in the Household” .
Make sure you start at the beginning of the thread so you can understand the goals of this person that wants to begin breeding dobermans.
Personally I have always “thought it would be fun to breed dobermans” but through this forum I have learned dreams are not always reality.
It’s hard work with no guarantees.
Your efforts are needed on that thread .....check it out ... in the name of creating awareness ....this person might learn from your experiences.
Give it a go.........
The folks you are writing with on this thread are very experienced and reputable breeders. So awareness is already established.
Please help us out with the other thread .....as we are all trying to create awareness with this member.

Hoss
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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-06-2019, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Another newsflash ... just because it's a documentary doesn't mean it is truth.
what's that? BIAS in my documentaries?! UNPOSSIBLE.

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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenroberto View Post
I did not say all, I said most. Which is generalizing. Yes. And from my experience, correctly so. The fact that the incidence of DCM is at 50% or above over decades is proof on its face that most breeders are not doing their part in testing, and that buyers are being told 10% is the actual rate. Anyone making a 1000 dollar investment in a pet would respond differently when given the probabilities of 10% vs. 50%+. That seems obvious. Buyers accept dobes with no testing because they are being told 10%, which is a probability they can live with going into the commitment. So, I stand by my comment but acknowledge you are a notable and praiseworthy exception.
Firstly, thank you for linking that video. It's good to see doberman owners and veterinarians working together to educate people about the disease and about what the testing actually means.

That being said, all this information has been available on the internet for some time. Our red female was diagnosed with DCM back in September of 2015. She had the second version the documentary spoke about where she was first diagnosed after she had extreme problems breathing because her lungs had begun to fill with fluid. She actually lived for 2.5 years after being diagnosed. Yes, the drug regimen was expensive. And yes, it was very hard to watch. But there were already multiple websites stating that 50% of the breed was affected and that the average life span was 7.5 years.

You also have to keep in mind how rapidly the technology to detect and diagnose the disease is improving. When my aunt was a breeder back in the 1990s, the euphemism was that 'the breed burns brightly'. There weren't a lot of heart studies then but the average accepted lifespan was around 7. If you dog lasted for longer than that, you were lucky. Breeders weren't stupid or greedy, there just weren't a lot of tools available to them. And as posted in this thread, as a breeder you could try to breed for longevity and sometimes the next generation were still affected.

I personally found the info about the genetic test offered in North America not working on European lines a bit confusing since from the documentary's data, the rates of DCM seem to be pretty consistent worldwide. But again the scientific record has stated that several genes are associated with the disease so one would have to wonder if the test is really that accurate for North American lines as well. Can anyone provide more information on the test mentioned briefly and its accuracy? If as a breeder you incorporate European lines into your breeding program, does the test no longer work?
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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenroberto View Post
Here is a professionally produced documentary that delves deeply into DCM, with extended interviews at University of Munich. I was shocked to learn that as many as 58% of all Dobermans die from DCM and that breeders are doing essentially nothing to stop it. This video is well worth watching, for all Doberman owners, not just those who have lost dogs to DCM. This is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL4wuv26068
Today was my first time watching that video and I found some of Steven's conclusions faulty--eye of the beholder and all that. The members/breeders of the DV were the ones that demanded that a study be done. From the timing, I would assume it would have been happening a few years after the results from the Munich clinic were being published which also clearly gathered its data over several years. However, breeders are not scientists. Chances are lack of funding is what lead to the study ending after 3 years--science is expensive, and from the documentary's description the study was not well designed. Also the decision to 'restart' the study in Italy was portrayed as "suspicious" and/or a delaying tactic on par with similar decisions in the past in other fields to delay acknowledging and dealing with a problem (aka big tobacco). But the decision could have been made to independently verify the results obtained at Munich which is quite common. And to give the organizations involved time to decide how to deal with the disease.

It's pretty clear based upon those interviewed that the desire to improve the health of the breed started with responsible breeders who wanted to know why their dogs were dropping dead. And that the current rate of testing (aka those participating by getting their dogs cardio and DNA-tested) is also being driven by breeders since your average 'I want a puppy!' buyer has no idea what health testing they should be looking for. The video does NOT conclude that breeders are doing nothing to stop it since the breeders that were interviewed that provide about a third of the footage were clearly very active and putting a lot of work into cardio testing. Basically they seemed like the European equivalent of MaryandDobes.

Also I haven't got a North American pedigreed dobe, but there are at least three European databases where breeders can enter their pedigrees including titles earned, age attained and cause of death for at least 3 generations. If you're buying a car, you should at a minimum research the model and year to find out if there's any issues. At least as much effort should go into researching a puppy's breed and pedigree so you have an idea of what you're getting into. Pedigrees also provide an insight into how much time and effort have been invested in the dam/sire and/or grandam/grandsire. Titles provide an insight into the dog's potential energy levels/intelligence/conformation. I purchased a registered 2 year old European dobe six months ago. A search of her pedigree shows several of her ancestors had BH/IPO ratings. A little more research into those titles shows she comes from very bright, active working dogs which explains a lot about her energy levels and temperament. It also shows her sire died at 7 years 6 months from pancreatic and kidney failure so yearly blood tests to monitor her pancreatic/kidney function might be a good idea.

Dobermann Brat.Ru - Index
https://doberbase.ru/
- World Pedigree DataBase Dobermann, Dobermann Pedigree DataBase.

I'm not sure what the equivalent North American websites are, but responsible breeders clearly are trying to be honest about their lines and exchange information to improve the breed.
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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskdobie View Post
But again the scientific record has stated that several genes are associated with the disease so one would have to wonder if the test is really that accurate for North American lines as well. Can anyone provide more information on the test mentioned briefly and its accuracy? If as a breeder you incorporate European lines into your breeding program, does the test no longer work?
Only 2 genes have been identified that can be tested for, and they are currently not really "predictive" of DCM in the sense that testing for them does not tell you whether your dog will develop the disease or not (American OR European).

Dogs can have neither gene, and still get DCM. They can have one gene, and get it. They have have both genes and get it. They have have also have both genes, and NOT get it. We have a VERY complex disease that probably involved many genes with incomplete penetrance. We only have a tiny piece of the puzzle.

Researchers so far have also determined that it seems the genes are different in the North American dogs and the European dogs. Again, since the gene tests at this point are more for research purposes than they are for diagnostic decisions (and, I'm not sure how helpful they are for breeding decisions - I'm not a breeder), I'm not sure it's terribly relevant. Certainly, if I were a breeder of European Dobermans I wouldn't be using the gene tests as a decision maker, but I wouldn't be doing that anyway...

You can find quite a few academic articles on the gene tests if you look for them. One is here and specifically discusses the difference in Euro/American: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4380154/

This is a pretty good write up of some early response to the gene testing: http://www.utahdobes.org/dcm_dna_test.htm

And, the forum has a sticky of a bunch of DCM threads, too - go to the top of the health forum to the stickies.
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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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""I'm just really at a loss as to what you expect from the people on this list.""

I dont want anything from anyone on the list. I just shared a link to what I think was a good documentary on DCM. That was all. Some people piled on me like seagulls on food scraps. If you dont like the documentary you dont need to say anything. It is my bad for bothering to respond.

I am done with this.


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You think I was being condescending?? I respectfully will tell you that I'm not. Maybe there is a language barrier in the translation, and as my spanish is poor, I can't help that.
I can also tell you that I don't know what help passing laws would do when we are dealing with a disease that is carried in every line of Dobermans and is probably made up on dozens of genes. I'm sorry if many of the breeders you have talked to are not honest about the disease, I would tell you that you need to talk to a better quality of breeders. As in many things, there are plenty of dishonest people out there that will tell you what they think you want to hear. I would not consider any of those people to be reputable breeders. I've only bred 3 litters so far in my 26+ years in this breed. I've done all the testing, but still explain to every buyer the reality of DCM in this breed. I tell every buyer that 50% of Dobermans will die of heart related disease, and it could be at age 11+ or it could be at 4. I do the testing and try to avoid DCM close up in the pedigree - but no breeder can avoid it altogether. I candidly tell every potential buyer that if they 100% don't want to risk DCM, then they need to find a different breed. That is the reality in the breed I love. I keep in touch with everyone and am always available. No matter what we do, dogs die.... and too many Dobermans die of DCM. It's the reality we all live with. In my 26 years with this breed, there has been a ton of discussion, tons of testing, and tons of research into the disease. The progress that has been made is mostly in having the tools available to diagnose the disease earlier and extending their life with medication. Testing also removes dogs that have occult DCM from the breeding pool - but diagnoses unfortunately does not usually raise its head till the age of 6-8.... long after the optimum age to breed a dog. Good breeders are already making the sacrifices you seem to think we need to make. Imagine spending the thousands of dollars it takes to show a dog to its championship only to find out there is a health issue that will keep you from breeding that dog. Good breeders are never in it for the money - indeed, showing and breeding dogs as a hobby is a money pit.
I'm just really at a loss as to what you expect from the people on this list. The vast majority of them do not breed, and those of us who do are pretty much doing everything that can be done to lessen the chances of DCM already..... while realizing that we can't eradicate it.
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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 12:00 AM
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Easy steven.... Take a step back here.

You are talking to folks, many of whom have dealt with Dilated Cardiomyopathy, myself included.

It is a very touchy and emotional subject.

There are many folks here who keep this disease constantly in the forefront of their mind.

We are not ignorant and the responses that you are generally getting are going to be based on research and personal experience.

Let's make this a nice and educational thread, not an "I am done with this" thread.

OK?

John
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and... The Butcher (RIP 2013... via DCM SDS v-tach)
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