Help! Crystals in urine, rx food, need some advice! - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-25-2019, 09:30 PM Thread Starter
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Help! Crystals in urine, rx food, need some advice!

Hey everyone I need some advice for my Scarlet. She started having random pee accidents in the house. It gradually got to anytime she’d lay down she would pee. We made some serious lifestyle changes and she now has access to outside and to fresh water all the time. No changes with leaking. We had her urine tested and the vet changed her food to Hills Science Prescription C/D. Her urine did show some crystals and he said this food would help. He also put her on a hormone pill we’re supposed to give her 2x a day until the accidents decreased. She was doing better, we decreased the pill and she immediately had accidents again. We’re back up to 2x a day this week after roughly a week of 1 pill a day. 3 months later and we re-tested her urine, the “old” crystals are gone but now there are “new” crystals and he wants us to switch her to Royal Canin Urinary SO. I am not confident in the quality of either food. Clearly she needs a new food. I think we need to get her off prescription food with mediocre nutrition, onto something thats good for her overall and add a urinary supplement or probiotic. I’m also thinking a food topper, possibly freeze dried that aids her digestive system. Any opinions of prescription food? Should I follow vets advice and switch to royal or another type of food altogether? If so which food and/or supplement do you suggest? I would prefer both my girls on the same food for practicality, my other girl has no issues. Both have sensitive tummies and skin.

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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-25-2019, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 07:02 AM
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SM - We have feed both Hills and Royal to Ali for her Copper Storage - Have got along fine with both - but that is the only foods we can feed her - Funny thing ? Kadin is on some top of the line food - If Ali leaves any food he I will let him clean it up - He loves it - lol - Matter of fact - he will paw at her feed box .

If you have doubt about what your feeding her then I would talk to her Vet or get another opinion - ask the questions on Nutrition and adding a supplement .

Good luck
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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 07:48 AM
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Just curious; How old is your girl? Is she spayed and if so, has your vet considered spay incontinence?
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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TNfisher View Post
Just curious; How old is your girl? Is she spayed and if so, has your vet considered spay incontinence?
She’s 3.5 and she is spayed. He said that if it’s incontinence his plan would be the same; change food to get rid of crystals and that he’d put her on this pill.
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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 09:38 AM
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Is she having irritation, and trouble peeing, or is she just leaking?

If she's just leaking and that stops on incontinence meds (Proin, maybe?), I'm not sure if the crystals are an issue...I feel like I've maybe read that you can always find crystals...but I could be misremembering that, and I'm certainly no vet professional. Spay incontinence is not uncommon and can often be easily managed with medication. It shouldn't require her to be on a prescription diet.

However, if she's also/or having difficulty with urination due to irritation from crystals in the bladder, that's a different situation, and that needs to be resolved, too.
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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 09:51 AM
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SM - Here's a copy and past from Pet Med - good read . I think this may help you some by understanding what may or may not be going on - Meadowcat is right - crystals can form after a sample is taken - If it is not tested soon after taking it . Also -as Meadowcat asked - in this read - it brings up the point about having trouble peeing - or she tries to go and nothing happens . I think that after you read this - it may help you to determine what she is doing and what she's not - this may also help the Vet . Also there is a very good read by VCA on urinalyses - What it tests and what they can determine from it - like the gravity or blood in it - I would highly recommend that read also .

Updated on February 25, 2019

Crystalluria is the presence of crystals in the urine. The detection of crystals in dog urine is not synonymous with bladder or kidney stones nor the clinical signs associated with them.

Dog Urine Crystals vs. Bladder or Kidney Stones

Detection of urine crystals in dogs is not irrefutable evidence of a stone-forming tendency. However, there is some association of an increased risk for bladder or kidney stones for animals that are afflicted with crystalluria. Crystals in dog urine can also be an indication of bladder or kidney infection.

Crystalluria in individuals with anatomically and functionally normal urinary tracts may be harmless because the crystals are eliminated before they grow large enough to interfere with normal urinary function. However, they still represent a risk factor for bladder and kidney stones, and they may cause discomfort or may promote bladder infections.

Different types of stones also have different causes and treatments. Some stones can be dissolved through diet change, while others require surgical removal.

Types of Urine Crystals in Dogs

Proper identification and interpretation of dog urine crystals is important in determining a medical strategy for treating the condition. Different types of crystals require different treatment strategies. Certain crystal types indicate an underlying disease or genetic condition.

Breeds that are prone to calcium oxalate crystals in the urine are Miniature Schnauzers, Yorkshire Terriers, Lhasa Apsos and Miniature Poodles.

Dachshunds, English Bulldogs, Mastiffs and Newfoundlands are prone to cystine crystals in the urine.

Dalmatians and English bulldogs tend to have ammonium crystals in the urine, and Cavalier King Charles Spaniels are prone to crystallized xanthine stones.

Symptoms of Dog Urine Crystals

Pain on urination
Difficulty urinating
Frequent urination
Blood in urine
Lethargy
Inappetence or anorexia
Sometimes no symptoms at all

Causes of Urine Crystals in Dogs

Concentration of crystallogenic substances in urine, partially influenced by:
Genetics
Diet
Kidney function
Environment
Urine concentration of water
Urine pH is off-balance (acidic or alkaline levels need to be balanced)
Solubility of crystallogenic substances in urine

Diagnosis

Urinalysis will be the major tool for analysis of crystalluria. An X-ray or ultrasound may be able to detect some stones.

The timing of sample collection (fasting versus postprandial [after a meal]) may influence evidence of crystalluria.

Treatment

Treatment will involve managing clinically important crystalluria by eliminating or controlling the underlying cause(s) or associated risk factors.

Treatment will also work to minimize clinically important crystalluria by increasing urine volume, encouraging complete and frequent voiding, modifying the diet, and in some instances, by appropriate drug therapy.

Living and Management

Your veterinarian will want to analyze the urine again to determine if crystalluria is still present, since persistent crystalluria may contribute to formation and growth of bladder or kidney stones.

In addition, chronic crystalluria may solidify crystalline-matrix plugs, resulting in a urethral obstruction. The best way to manage crystalluria is to prevent it by following your veterinarian’s instructions and returning regularly for urine testing.
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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 09:55 AM
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I decided to go ahead and post up the VCA article - I think its a very good read not only for SM but all of us to brush up some .

Doc


Urinalysis
By Kristiina Ruotsalo, DVM, DVSc, Dip ACVP & Margo S. Tant BSc, DVM, DVSc Diagnosis
What is a urinalysis?
Urinalysis is a routine test that reports the physical and chemical properties of urine. It is used mainly to assess the health of the kidneys and urinary system, but it can also reveal problems in other organ systems, and is important for diagnosing metabolic disease such as diabetes mellitus. It is a valuable test in both healthy and sick animals and should be included in any comprehensive evaluation of a pet's health.
How is urine collected?
There are three main ways to collect urine in cats and dogs.
Cystocentesis:A sterile needle and syringe are used to collect urine from the bladder. The needle is passed through the abdominal wall into a full bladder and urine is withdrawn directly into the sterile syringe. The advantage of cystocentesis is that the urine is not contaminated by miscellaneous debris from the lower urinary passage. This type of sample is ideal for assessing the bladder and kidneys and for detecting bacterial infection. The disadvantages of cystocentesis are that the method is slightly more invasive than other methods and it is difficult to do in patients that are uncooperative.
Catheterization: A very narrow sterile catheter is passed up the lower urinary passage (called the urethra) into the bladder. A sterile syringe is attached to the catheter and urine is withdrawn from the bladder into the syringe. The technique is less invasive than cystocentesis and is a good option when a voluntary sample is not available, especially in a male dog. Catheterization causes mild irritation to the urethra, and may carry bacteria from the urethra into the bladder.
Mid-stream free-flow: Urine is voided voluntarily by pet in the usual way and a sample is collected into a sterile container as the pet urinates. Ideally, the sample is collected mid-stream, meaning partway through urination. This type of sample is often called a “free-flow” or “free catch” sample. The advantages of this method are that it is completely non-invasive, and the pet owner can collect the urine sample at home. The disadvantages are that it may be difficult to collect a sample in mid-stream from some pets, and the urine is more likely to be contaminated by miscellaneous debris from the urethra or the environment.
How is a urinalysis performed?
There are four parts to a urinalysis.
Assess appearance: color and turbidity (cloudiness).
Measure concentration (‘density’) of the urine.
Measure pH (acidity) and analyse chemical composition of the urine.
Examine the cells and solid material present in the urine using a microscope.
Most of the analysis is done on whole urine (as it comes from the animal), but the microscopic examination of cells and solid material requires the sample to be concentrated or sedimented. To do this, urine is placed in a tube and then centrifuged (spun in a circle at very high speed) to force the cells and solid material to settle to the bottom. This accumulated material, or sediment, is collected and spread on a slide, and then examined under a microscope.
What do changes in color and turbidity (cloudiness) mean?
Normal urine is pale yellow to light amber, and is generally clear to slightly cloudy. Urine that is dark yellow usually suggests the pet needs a drink of water or may be dehydrated. Urine that is very pale yellow or clear suggests the pet is drinking a lot of water and urinating frequently; this may signal underlying kidney disease, or a disorder that interferes with the pet’s ability to pass concentrated urine. Urine that is any color other than yellow (for example orange, red, or brown-black) may contain substances not normally found in healthy urine and may reflect injury or underlying disease.
Increased turbidity or cloudiness indicates that there are cells or other solid material in the urine. Examination of the sediment will determine what is present and whether it is significant. Increased turbidity is typically associated with the presence of blood, inflammatory cells, crystals, mucus, or debris.
What is Specific Gravity and how does it help detect disease?
It may help to think of urine specific gravity as the density of the urine. A healthy kidney should produce dense (concentrated) urine, while watery (dilute) urine may signal underlying disease.
One of the kidney's jobs is to maintain the body's water level within relatively narrow limits. If there is an excess of water in the body, then the kidneys allow the excess water to pass out in the urine, and the urine becomes more watery or dilute. If there is a shortage of water in the body (as in dehydration), then the kidneys reduce the amount of water lost in urine, and the pet passes more concentrated urine.
Normal animals may pass dilute urine from time to time during the day, and a single dilute urine sample is not necessarily a cause for concern.If a pet continues to pass dilute urine, then there could be underlying kidney or metabolic disease and further investigation is recommended.
What is urine pH and why is it measured?
Urine pH is a measure of how acidic or alkaline the urine is. The pH can change with diet, but can also signal the presence of infection or metabolic disease. Normal urine in the cat and dog ranges from mildly acidic to mildly alkaline. Extremes in urine pH beyond this range are more likely to be associated with disease.
How is the chemical analysis of the urine performed?
The chemical analysis of urine is performed using a dipstick, which is a small strip of plastic that holds a series of individual test pads. Each test pad measures a different chemical component and changes color to indicate the amount of that substance in the urine. The dipstick is dipped into the urine, and after a short waiting period, the color of the test pads is compared to a chart that translates the intensity of the color to an actual measurement.
What substances are detected by the chemical analysis of urine?
Protein:
The presence of protein in urine is called proteinuria. Mild proteinuria in a concentrated urine may not be cause for concern, but proteinuria in dilute urine should be investigated since it may signal developing kidney disease. The significance of proteinuria is often determined by doing a second test called the protein:creatinineratio (see articlesUrine Protein, and Urine protein:creatinine ratio).
Glucose (sugar):
Glucose should not be present in the urine of healthy cats and dogs. The presence of large amounts of glucose usually indicates the pet has diabetes mellitus. Small amounts of glucose in the urine may also be found in pets with kidney disease.
Ketones:
Ketones appear in urine whenever the body breaks down excessive amounts of stored fat to meet its energy needs. This occurs most frequently in diabetes mellitus, but can also be found in healthy animals during prolonged fasting or starvation.
Blood:
Blood in the urine usually indicates there is bleeding somewhere in the urinary system. Sometimes this is due to how the sample was collected; for example, small amounts of blood are often found in samples collected by cystocentesis or catheterization. Blood in the urine is associated with diseases such as bacterial infection, bladder stones, trauma, or cancer, so if blood in the urine does not appear to be due to the sampling method, further investigation is recommended.
A positive reading for blood can also be seen with a disease called hemolytic anemia, in which red blood cells are destroyed and a protein called hemoglobinis released. Hemoglobin passes into the urine and causes the blood test pad to show positive, even though there is no actual bleeding in the urinary system.
Occasionally the blood test pad will show positive for blood when there is muscle inflammation or injury. This is because damaged muscle fibres release a protein called myoglobin, which is very similar to hemoglobin. Myoglobin will also cause the blood test pad to show positive, even though there is no actual bleeding in the urinary system. A specific test for myoglobin can be done if muscle injury is suspected.
Urobilinogen:
The presence of urobilinogen in urine indicates that the bile duct is open and that bile can flow from the gall bladder into the intestine. A negative urobilinogen result has no interpretation and does not mean the bile duct is obstructed.
Bilirubin:
Bilirubin is a substance that is produced in the liver and normally excreted in the bile.
Bilirubin is not found in the urine of healthy cats but may be found in small quantities in the urine of healthy dogs. Abnormal amounts of bilirubin in the urine are associated with liver disease or red blood cell destruction (“hemolysis”), and should always be investigated.
Why examine the urine sediment?
Urine sediment is the material that "sediments" out or settles into the bottom of the tube when a urine sample is spun in a centrifuge.
What sorts of things can be found in a urinary sediment and what do they mean?
The most common things found in urine sediment are red blood cells, white blood cells, crystals, bacteria, and tissue cells from different parts of the urinary system. Small amounts of mucus and miscellaneous debris are often found in free-catch samples. Rarely, parasite eggs are found in urine.
Red blood cells
Small numbers of red blood cells are often found in urine collected by cystocentesis or catheterization, but large numbers of red blood cells usually indicate bleeding. This may be caused by conditions such as bladder stones, infection, coagulation problems, trauma, cancer, etc.
White Blood Cells
Small numbers of white blood cells in a free-catch sample may not be significant, but in general, an increased number of white blood cells indicates inflammation somewhere in the urinary system. Inflammation is often secondary to bacterial infection.
Bacteria
The presence of both bacteria and inflammatory cells in the sediment indicates there is likely bacterial infection somewhere in the urinary system. Ideally, the urine should be sent to the laboratory for culture and sensitivity testing to find out what types bacteria are present and which antibiotic should be used to treat the infection.
Crystals
There are many different types of crystals and they vary in size, shape, and color. The significance of crystals also varies. Some crystals are unique and help to pinpoint a specific diagnosis. In more common conditions such as bladder infection and bladder stones, the crystals provide information that can influence how the disease is managed.
Crystals in the urine do not always indicate disease. Some crystals form when a pet is given certain types of medications. Crystals can also form in urine after it has been collected, especially if there is a long delay before the urinalysis is done. If this happens, the veterinarian may wish to examine a fresh sample immediately after it has been collected to determine if the crystals are significant.
Tissue Cells

Increased numbers of tissue cells are often seen in samples collected by catheterization. While this is not a sign of disease, increased cellularity can be seen with a variety of disorders, including urinary tract inflammation, bladder stones, prostate problems (in the male dog), cancer etc. If the cells look abnormal, your veterinarian may recommend acytological preparation of the sediment, which allows for a more detailed examination of the tissue cells.
This client information sheet is based on material written by: Kristiina Ruotsalo, DVM, DVSc, Dip ACVP & Margo S. Tant BSc, DVM, DVSc
© Copyright 2015 LifeLearn Inc. Used and/or modified with permission under license.
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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 10:26 AM
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Hi Scarlet's Mom,

What you are describing sounds more like spay incontinence than anything else. Could you post the name of the pills the vet had you given? Briefly, if it is spay incontinence Proin often works on bitches--but it's a drug that you will be given for the rest of her life and you do have to go through a period of time adjusting the Prion to get maximum results. The other thing often prescribed is a hormone and is usually DES--again--if it is spay incontinence she'll be on that for the rest of her life. The DES starts out with a loading dose and is then reduced until the leaking starts again. I don't keep bitches but have friends who do and on DES often once the proper dosage is determined they usually end up getting one pill a week.

Sometimes a bitch will not stay dry on one or the other of the above meds but will on both of them.

If there are crystals (what kind? struvite are the most common, oxalate and the next most common) the usual recommendation is to control crystal formation with food--which works very well.

It really doesn't make any difference (except to you) if you like the ingredients in the prescription foods--they work. Hills prescription CD works (and I had a male on that for 8 years because he had chronic hematuria {blood in the urnine} practically all the time) On CD and glucosamione his urine stayed acidic enough to stop the non infection related hematuria). Royal Canine SO is often prescribed as a permanent diet for dogs who have repeated UTI's or--chronic leakage not related to spay incontinence--it works. And Purina has a prescription food UR Ox/ST--which is specifically aimed at controlling crystal formation--it works.

And all of these provide adequet nutrition for adult dogs--and are tailored to deal with urinary tract issues.

The two posts that ECIN put up provide a really good short course in urinary tract health and disorders and diseases.

Good luck in getting it sorted out for Scarlet...

dobebug
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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 10:28 AM
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Both good reads Doc.....

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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 11:15 AM
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I will add one more thing - The timing of the urine catch is better the very first thing in the morning - Ali has had 2 tests come back that was diluted urine - They took these catches latter in the day And I didn't know they were going to do it - so she had morning water and then after driving a hour - she got a drink when we got there - The internal Vet was concurred about this and I told her that she has drank a lot of water - so I got a sample the next morning and took it to our local vet - test came back normal .

Now there is one other disease that they brought up - it's Cushing - I personally think that no way Ali has this , but this is also a copy and paste - Ali has taught us a lot about problems : ))
Cushing's Disease in Dogs
By Ernest Ward, DVM Medical Conditions
What is Cushing's disease?
Cushing's disease (also known as Cushing’s syndrome) is a condition in which the adrenal glands overproduce certain hormones. The medical term for this disease is hyperadrenocorticism. Literally translated, “hyper” means over active, “adreno” means adrenal gland, and “corticism” refers to the outer part of the adrenal gland.
The adrenal glands are located near the kidneys and produce several vital substances that regulate a variety of body functions and are necessary to sustain life. The most widely known of these substances is cortisol, commonly known as “cortisone.” Decreased or excessive production of these substances, especially cortisol, may be life-threatening.
What causes this disease?
There are three types of Cushing’s disease, each of which has a different cause. Identifying the cause is important because the various types of the disease are treated differently and each has a different prognosis (expected outcome).
Identifying the cause of Cushing’s disease is important because the various types are treated differently and each has a different prognosis.
Pituitary gland tumor. The most common cause of Cushing's disease (85% to 90% of all cases) is a tumor of the pituitary gland (which is located at the based of the brain). The tumor may be either benign or malignant. The tumor causes the pituitary gland to overproduce a hormone (ACTH) that stimulates the adrenal glands to produce cortisol. The tumor may be microscopic or large. Depending on the size of the tumor, clinical signs other than those of Cushing's disease may be present. Generally, if the activity of the adrenal gland can be controlled, many dogs with this form of Cushing's disease can live normal lives for many years as long as they take their medication and stay under close medical supervision. If the pituitary tumor grows, it will affect the brain, often resulting in neurological signs and giving the pet a less favorable prognosis. This happens in approximately 15% of these patients. These large, benign growths of the pituitary are called macroadenomas and are typically larger than 1 cm in diameter. Tumors less than 1 cm in diameter are called microadenomas and rarely cause neurological symptoms.
Adrenal gland tumor. Cushing's disease may be the result of a benign or malignant tumor of the adrenal gland (adenoma or carcinoma, respectively). If the tumor is benign, surgical removal will cure the disease. If the tumor is malignant, surgery may help for some time, but the prognosis is much less favorable.
Excessive cortisol from prolonged use of steroids. The third type of the disease is called iatrogenic Cushing's disease. It is caused when there is excessive administration of an oral or injectable steroid. Although the steroids were usually given for a legitimate medical reason, in this case, their excess has become detrimental.
What are the clinical signs of Cushing’s disease?
Regardless of the type, the clinical signs (symptoms) of Cushing’s syndrome are essentially the same. The most common clinical signs are an increase in appetite, water consumption, and urination. The increased appetite is a direct result of elevated levels of cortisol, which stimulate appetite. Lethargy (drowsiness or lack of activity) and a poor hair coat are also common in pets with hyperadrenocorticism.
Many dogs with Cushing’s disease develop a bloated or “pot-bellied” appearance.
Many of these dogs develop a bloated or “pot-bellied” appearance to their abdomen because of an increase of fat within the abdominal organs and a stretching of the abdominal wall as the organs get heavier. The pot-bellied appearance also develops because the muscles of the abdominal wall become weaker and eventually atrophy (shrink in size). Panting, thin skin, chronic skin infections (pyoderma), dark-colored spots (hyperpigmentation), skin mineralization (calcinosis cutis), poor skin healing, and persistent bladder infections are other common clinical signs with this disease.
How is Cushing’s disease diagnosed?
A number of tests are necessary to diagnose and confirm Cushing’s disease. The two most common tests to detect Cushing’s disease are the ACTH stimulation test and the low-dose dexamethasone suppression (LDDS) test. Endogenous ACTH levels, a high-dose dexamethasone suppression (HDDS) test, urine cortisol:creatinine ratio, and 17-hydroxyprogesterone response to ACTH administration are other tests that may be needed to help determine the type of the disease.
An abdominal ultrasound can be a valuable part of the diagnostic process for hyperadrenocorticism.
An abdominal ultrasound examination can be a valuable part of the diagnostic process for Cushing’s disease. Ultrasound lets your veterinarian see the adrenal glands and determine their size and the presence of a tumor.
Although some of these tests can be expensive, they are necessary to determine the best treatment and prognosis for your pet.
What are the treatment options?
As previously mentioned, the treatment depends on which type of the disease is present.
Pituitary tumor. Treatment of the pituitary-induced form of Cushing’s disease is the most complicated. Two drugs, trilostane (Vetoryl) and mitotane (Lysodren), are commonly used. Selegiline hydrochloride (Anipryl) is also used to treat canine Cushing’s disease, although it isn’t as effective as trilostane or mitotane.
Adrenal tumor. Treatment of an adrenal tumor requires major abdominal surgery. If the surgery is successful (the entire tumor is removed) and the tumor is not malignant, there is a good chance that the dog will regain normal health. If surgery is not an option, some of these patients can be managed with medication, as discussed below.
Iatrogenic Cushing’s disease. Treatment of this form requires discontinuation of the steroid being given. This must be done in a controlled, gradual manner so that other complications do not occur. Unfortunately, it usually results in a recurrence of the disease that was being treated by the steroid. Because the steroid may have caused adverse effects on the adrenal glands, treatment is also often needed to help replace the hormones that the adrenal gland normally produces.
What do I need to know if my dog’s disease is being managed with medication?
Your veterinarian will outline a treatment plan for your pet’s specific condition. Be sure to follow his or her guidelines closely, because these treatments often depend on consistent and regular administration of the medication. Lifelong treatment may be necessary.
Most dogs can be successfully treated with few medication side effects. However, your pet must be carefully monitored using blood tests and clinical signs. Follow-up blood tests are very important to be certain your pet is receiving the proper dosage and not too little or too much of the drug, both of which can cause complications.
When giving your dog medication to manage Cushing’s disease, be sure to follow your veterinarian’s guidelines closely.
What is the prognosis?
Although neither medical treatment can cure a dog with Cushing’s disease, control is possible for many years if the tumor is small. If the tumor is large and affects the brain, the pet has a less favorable prognosis. The prognosis for patients diagnosed with malignant adrenal tumors is guarded to poor. In cases of benign adrenal tumors, however, surgery is usually curative.
This client information sheet is based on material written by: Ernest Ward, DVM
© Copyright 2012 Lifelearn Inc. Used and/or modified with permission under license
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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 11:17 AM
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Both good reads Doc.....
Well of course they are Lady Di - This is not Doc's first day on the job LMAO -- Thanks
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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
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Is she having irritation, and trouble peeing, or is she just leaking?

If she's just leaking and that stops on incontinence meds (Proin, maybe?), I'm not sure if the crystals are an issue...I feel like I've maybe read that you can always find crystals...but I could be misremembering that, and I'm certainly no vet professional. Spay incontinence is not uncommon and can often be easily managed with medication. It shouldn't require her to be on a prescription diet.

However, if she's also/or having difficulty with urination due to irritation from crystals in the bladder, that's a different situation, and that needs to be resolved, too.
Yes they put her on 1mg of Proin twice a day. She is peeing normally and doesn’t seem to be straining to go. She doesn’t leak when she’s walking or sitting only when she’s relaxed and laying down. She has been licking her private area but other than that doesn’t show signs of irritation. Eating, drinking and going potty fine. Still active and her normal self!
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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SM - We have feed both Hills and Royal to Ali for her Copper Storage - Have got along fine with both - but that is the only foods we can feed her - Funny thing ? Kadin is on some top of the line food - If Ali leaves any food he I will let him clean it up - He loves it - lol - Matter of fact - he will paw at her feed box .

If you have doubt about what your feeding her then I would talk to her Vet or get another opinion - ask the questions on Nutrition and adding a supplement .

Good luck
I’m glad Ali likes it! Scarlet wasn’t thrilled with the Hills, we added some wet food (same kind) and she liked that better. Hopefully she’ll like the Royal.
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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 11:49 AM
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Yes they put her on 1mg of Proin twice a day. She is peeing normally and doesn’t seem to be straining to go. She doesn’t leak when she’s walking or sitting only when she’s relaxed and laying down. She has been licking her private area but other than that doesn’t show signs of irritation. Eating, drinking and going potty fine. Still active and her normal self!
She may have both issues going on, then...the leaking when she's relaxed sounds like incontinence and like Bug said, that's a lifelong issue that you can control with the medication (either Proin or DES).

If she's licking herself she may have some irritation from the crystals, since it sounds like that issue is not resolved. I personally would follow the recommendation of the prescription diet until that issue is fixed. I don't believe the two are related.


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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Is she having irritation, and trouble peeing, or is she just leaking?

If she's just leaking and that stops on incontinence meds (Proin, maybe?), I'm not sure if the crystals are an issue...I feel like I've maybe read that you can always find crystals...but I could be misremembering that, and I'm certainly no vet professional. Spay incontinence is not uncommon and can often be easily managed with medication. It shouldn't require her to be on a prescription diet.

However, if she's also/or having difficulty with urination due to irritation from crystals in the bladder, that's a different situation, and that needs to be resolved, too.
She’s on 2mg of Proin and it did stop the leaking until we decreased it per the vets instructions. It took about 1.5-2wks initially for it to kick in and she’s only on day 5 of being back on 2mg so I know that will take time to kick in again. She is licking herself so she could be irritated. But isn’t having difficulty peeing. No blood in her urine either. I think its incontinence but the vet believes the food is necessary to eliminate the crystals.
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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
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I will add one more thing - The timing of the urine catch is better the very first thing in the morning -
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That was a lot of good information thank you! The first sample was her 1st pee of the day, she hadn’t drank water or eaten breakfast yet. The second sample was her 2nd pee of the day and she had drank water and eaten breakfast.
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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for all the info and insight! Both samples were a free catch by me in a new unused container. Sample 1 was the first pee of the day, no food or water before. That came back with struvite crystals. She was put on Proin and Hills Science. 3 months later I took a second sample, she had breakfast and water in the am and it was her second pee. It came back with oxalate crystals but not struvite. Current plan from vet is to switch to Royal prescription food, keep on 2mg of Proin, 1 mg 2x daily, until the leaking stops. She is licking herself which she did initially before Proin kicked in the first time. Last time after roughly 2wks on Proin she stopped licking and having leaking. I’m hoping thats the case this time. Other than licking and leaking she is happy, peeing & pooping normally and active.
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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 01:05 PM
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I'm thinking the licking could just be that she's trying to clean herself up....get rid of the pee smell, so to speak.
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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I'm thinking the licking could just be that she's trying to clean herself up....get rid of the pee smell, so to speak.
Thats a good point and it makes sense!
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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 03:00 PM
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I’m glad Ali likes it! Scarlet wasn’t thrilled with the Hills, we added some wet food (same kind) and she liked that better. Hopefully she’ll like the Royal.
I should restate that SM - She started out on Hills - we also had to add some can with it after she was on it - I switched over to Royal and she likes that a lot better - I know most of is that she can not have anything else she liked to eat - I do add a 1/3 can of No Salt Green Beans ( Del Monte ) we tried a few cans of the Great Value brand from Wal Mart and neither her of Mr. Business liked them , I also pour the juice over all the food .

Hills is a Guarantee food - meaning if they won't eat it - you can take it back to the Vets office and they will give you your money back - This is just my opinion here - But I am pretty sure she will like the Royal better - also I get Ali's from Chewy's - it is about 4 bucks a bag cheaper + it is shipped to your house - that is the part I like as Vets office where I get Ali's food is a good 20 minutes one way .

Best of luck !

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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
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I’m glad Ali likes it! Scarlet wasn’t thrilled with the Hills, we added some wet food (same kind) and she liked that better. Hopefully she’ll like the Royal.
I should restate that SM - She started out on Hills - we also had to add some can with it after she was on it - I switched over to Royal and she likes that a lot better - I know most of is that she can not have anything else she liked to eat - I do add a 1/3 can of No Salt Green Beans ( Del Monte ) we tried a few cans of the Great Value brand from Wal Mart and neither her of Mr. Business liked them , I also pour the juice over all the food .

Hills is a Guarantee food - meaning if they won't eat it - you can take it back to the Vets office and they will give you your money back - This is just my opinion here - But I am pretty sure she will like the Royal better - also I get Ali's from Chewy's - it is about 4 bucks a bag cheaper + it is shipped to your house - that is the part I like as Vets office where I get Ali's food is a good 20 minutes one way .

Best of luck !

Doc
Thanks Doc! I’ve been ordering from Chewy too. Since the Royal can food is so expensive I’m going to get her a food topper to make it more enticing. Do you still give your girl treats or bones? Our vet said to cut everything out but I’d like to find something she can have occassionally
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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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Another situation I need to consider; I have 2 dobermans. They both eat twice a day, prior to these issues they ate the same food. They eat in separate bowls but now that they’re eating different food they like to “taste” each others food. They don’t eat much just a few pieces of kibble. Do you think its worth putting them both on the rx food? I could also feed them in separate rooms but I don’t know if a few pieces occassioanly would be enough to upset Scar’s system. What do you all think?
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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 04:45 PM
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Unless your other dog also needs to be on the RX food, don't feed it to her. RX foods are designed to help treat specific issues, and dogs without those issues don't need to be eating it. A few pieces here and there won't hurt, but my dogs never leave anything behind.


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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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Unless your other dog also needs to be on the RX food, don't feed it to her. RX foods are designed to help treat specific issues, and dogs without those issues don't need to be eating it. A few pieces here and there won't hurt, but my dogs never leave anything behind.
Ok thank you
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