Help! Crystals in urine, rx food, need some advice! - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 05:33 PM
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I agree with melbrod abut the licking; Mocha did lick herself from time to time until the Proin kicked in; and she was literally mortified that she would lay down on her pillow and leak a small amount of urine or, if she slept, she would "wet the bed". That happened twice and the poor girl couldn't believe something like that could happen to her LOL. I felt sorry for her, she looked so sad. The Proin has worked wonders for her though; our vet has her on 2 50mg tablets per day (based on her weight of 65 pounds), 1 every 12 hours and so far, I've noticed 0 side effects except a dry bed



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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 05:36 PM
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When you did the free catch at home did you refrigerate it before your appointment, I’ve read that this can cause crystals to form that weren’t actually in it naturally.
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with melbrod abut the licking; Mocha did lick herself from time to time until the Proin kicked in; and she was literally mortified that she would lay down on her pillow and leak a small amount of urine or, if she slept, she would "wet the bed". That happened twice and the poor girl couldn't believe something like that could happen to her LOL. I felt sorry for her, she looked so sad. The Proin has worked wonders for her though; our vet has her on 2 50mg tablets per day (based on her weight of 65 pounds), 1 every 12 hours and so far, I've noticed 0 side effects except a dry bed <img src="https://www.dobermantalk.com/images/smilies/smile1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile1" class="inlineimg" />
Scarlet is the same way; she acts shocked and embarassed! It stresses her out way more than it affects us, it takes lots of cuddles and verbal praise to calm her down! She’s only on 1mg tabs 2x per day and she’s just under 90lbs. I wonder if she needs a higher dosage. Did you build up to that or was that the first prescription?
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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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When you did the free catch at home did you refrigerate it before your appointment, I’ve read that this can cause crystals to form that weren’t actually in it naturally.
I did refrigerate the samples both times. The vet’s office said it had to be refrigerated if it was a free catch. They sent it out for testing so I’m assuming they would’ve refridgerated it even if I took it directly in. They said it gets picked up in the evening. It does makes sense that it could affect the results though!
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 06:04 PM
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I did refrigerate the samples both times. The vet’s office said it had to be refrigerated if it was a free catch. They sent it out for testing so I’m assuming they would’ve refridgerated it even if I took it directly in. They said it gets picked up in the evening. It does makes sense that it could affect the results though!

I looked for the article I had read before Dietary treatment of bladder stones ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School and then when back to read what kind of crystals your girl hard, looks like the refrigeration issue is with Struvite, I realize now you said oxalate crystals. There’s some interesting info on that webpage if you’re interested. Other than that I cannot offer any other solutions....maybe a second opinion?
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post #31 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 06:34 PM
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Refrigerating urine can definitely cause crystal formation, both oxalates and struvites (and some others). You can bring the urine sample back up to room temperature and sometime redissolve the crystals which have formed after the urine was collected. But the formation of crystals can also be affected by the urine pH which won't change merely with temperature (but which an infection can alter, hence crystals as an indication of infection).

Refrigeration will also slow down the growth of bacteria which may be contaminants in urine or a cause of an infection. If a sample is a "free catch", and is allowed to stay at room temperature for a while, the bacteria can grow and cause abnormal test results, which may give the appearance that the dog has a urinary tract infection.

So if a urine is going to sit for a bit before being tested, refrigeration is generally indicated. I would hazard to say that most of the time when a routine urinalysis is ordered, the first thing they are looking for is whether or not an infection is present.

Last edited by melbrod; 03-26-2019 at 07:08 PM.
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post #32 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 07:09 PM
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Scarlet is the same way; she acts shocked and embarassed! It stresses her out way more than it affects us, it takes lots of cuddles and verbal praise to calm her down! She’s only on 1mg tabs 2x per day and she’s just under 90lbs. I wonder if she needs a higher dosage. Did you build up to that or was that the first prescription?
Not sure why your vet prescribed that dosage, you may want to ask.

"Proin is available in 25 mg, 50 mg, and 75 mg chewable tablets. Dosage of proin generally depends on the body weight of the animal. However, a dose of 12.5 mg to 50 mg can be administered three times daily, depending on weight. The usual dose of Proin in dogs is 0.4-0.8 mg/pound every 12 hours. Over dosage can bring about symptoms of high blood pressure, increased heart rate, seizures, or coma. Do not increase or reduce the dosage without veterinary prescription."

From here
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post #33 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 08:56 PM Thread Starter
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I just checked her rx box and it’s 1mg Incurin tablets not Proin. Proin is what I had read about and discussed with the vet initially. Not sure if I misunderstood him or why he chose this rx over that.
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post #34 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-27-2019, 11:41 AM
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I just checked her rx box and it’s 1mg Incurin tablets not Proin. Proin is what I had read about and discussed with the vet initially. Not sure if I misunderstood him or why he chose this rx over that.
OK, incurin is one of the hormone drugs. What she's getting is a common beginning dose--I can't remember if she gets the 1 mg tablet once or twice a day. At any rate this is a drug which gets an initial loading dose and then gets reduced until leaking starts and then is raised until leaking stops.

It's very effective if it works--doesn't work on all bitches some vets prefer it as a treatment rather than Proin and some don't.

Keep an eye on her--bitches usually try to clean up if they leak so watch for increased lick of and around the vulva. Particularly when you are trying to establi9sh a proper dose the licking is a warning--and bitches do get embarrassed about the floods of urine that happen when the dosage isn't high enough--often happens when they are asleep--nothing like waking up to a soaked bed.

Good luck--I think you are on the right track on this./..

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post #35 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-27-2019, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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I just checked her rx box and it’s 1mg Incurin tablets not Proin. Proin is what I had read about and discussed with the vet initially. Not sure if I misunderstood him or why he chose this rx over that.
OK, incurin is one of the hormone drugs. What she's getting is a common beginning dose--I can't remember if she gets the 1 mg tablet once or twice a day. At any rate this is a drug which gets an initial loading dose and then gets reduced until leaking starts and then is raised until leaking stops.

It's very effective if it works--doesn't work on all bitches some vets prefer it as a treatment rather than Proin and some don't.

Keep an eye on her--bitches usually try to clean up if they leak so watch for increased lick of and around the vulva. Particularly when you are trying to establi9sh a proper dose the licking is a warning--and bitches do get embarrassed about the floods of urine that happen when the dosage isn't high enough--often happens when they are asleep--nothing like waking up to a soaked bed.

Good luck--I think you are on the right track on this./..

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Thanks! The only thing I’m noticing is sometimes after she leaks she gets extremely anxious and her front legs shake. It only lasts for a minute or 2 but its so sad! We just hold her and try to calm her until it passes and then she goes back to herself; not sure if its anxiety from her thinking “what just happened?!” Or a hormone flux from the pill. If she has to be on 2mg a day for the incontinence do you think its worth switching to Proin?
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post #36 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-27-2019, 12:17 PM
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Thanks! The only thing I’m noticing is sometimes after she leaks she gets extremely anxious and her front legs shake. It only lasts for a minute or 2 but its so sad! We just hold her and try to calm her until it passes and then she goes back to herself; not sure if its anxiety from her thinking “what just happened?!” Or a hormone flux from the pill. If she has to be on 2mg a day for the incontinence do you think its worth switching to Proin?
I'd discuss this with your vet. You haven't even been all the way through the process of determining what the dose of the incurin should be--I think (and ask your vet about this) that once you have her on a dosage that actually stops the leaking--I might be wrong about the incurin--DES is what is usually prescribed and it almost always is obtained from one of the compounding pharmacies like Wedgewood or Road Runner.

Make sure--by asking your vet what exactly the incurin is supposed to do and how long it takes to reach a point where it's appropriate to try something else if it doesn't seem to be working.

I don't think her upset with the leaking is because of 'hormone surges'--I've seen enough leaky bitches who are well house trained get extremely upset about inadvertent leaking, dribbling, or flooding. They are doing something they were trained not to do and can't control it--very upsetting.

I'm going to go look up incurin--I just had a flash that it isn't what I thought it was at all.

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post #37 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-27-2019, 12:31 PM
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OK, I Googled incurin--and it was the hormone replacement I thought it was ( Estriol) you might want to just Google it before you ask your vet--one of the very first entries said that 2 mg per day is a recommended first dose (unlike many other drugs dosage is not determined by weight). There were entries for common questions and they are things like how long does it take to kick in, what kind of side effect you might encounter.

So back to my original recommendation--discuss it with your vet after you look up the basics via Google and ask why he started her on that instead of Proin. I know that when DES is used many bitches only need to be dosed once a week to stay dry. But all of the hormone controls depend on a loading dose and then reducing it until it is no longer controlling the leaking raising it again until leaking is controlled and use that dose--if she starts liking around her vulva that's often a sign of minor leaking and a increase of the drug might be recommended.

Poor Scarlet--good luck--you'll get it sorted out.

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