Eva Toeing In - Older Female Dobe - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
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Eva Toeing In - Older Female Dobe

Eva has been really doing well on Hypothyroid medications for almost 2-yrs. She has leveled off at about 77 lbs. wt. from her peak of 101 lbs. in April 2017 when her treatment started.

For last couple months, Eva has been displaying symptoms of Toeing In on front legs and splaying of toes. I also noticed Eva will sit down and lick both forelegs after playing intense tug of war games with me. She has been wrestling with Spock, playing tug with dad, walking daily long distances and running in backyard (after squirrels) like normal since she lost her excess weight.

I showed pictures of Eva's condition to our Vet yesterday, during my visit with Spock. She said in older dogs, this could indicate shifting of weight forward due to a hip injury which would go along with narrow tracking of back legs. Another reason could just be arthritis from old age. She has never had any verbal indication of pain during activities, just licking of both forelegs after hard physical exertion. I have not noticed any strange tracking of her back legs when walking or running. Both legs feel normal and symmetrical with no swelling. Note- her diet hasn't changed any in last several years.

I personally believe it's the onset of arthritis. Be interested to hear if any DT members have had this happen in your older Dobes.



Eva Toeing In When Sitting/Standing



Closeup Eva Toeing In and Splaying of Toes




Side View Of Eva's Front Paws


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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 03:38 PM
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Capri did something sorta like that with one foot, but she wasn't a senior. So in her case it was an actual injury. She stretched (I don't think ruptured) a ligament on the outside of her wrist (I can't remember which one).




The concern was that eventually the ligament would rupture and that she would end up walking on the side of her foot. We did have a custom brace made for her,



but it wasn't very successful. No matter how much we padded it we couldn't prevent it from rubbing the back of her leg. And then she couldn't wear the brace until the area healed. I guess they work better in a dog that actually has enough hair there to protect the skin. Dobes just don't. We also tried injecting platelet rich plasma into the joint and did physical therapy, but nothing was truly successful.

She never acted like it bothered her and was just as wild as ever charging around.

Capri's problem was only in one foot though...

So I think (after writing all of this) Eva's problem is different. But just in case they consider the same treatment, that was our experience with it.

Last edited by melbrod; 01-16-2019 at 03:49 PM.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 03:43 PM
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As Brandy aged she would tend to kick her right front leg out and her left side would knuckle a little bit. She was diagnosed with spondylosis and the vet believed she did that to take pressure off of her neck. It didn't look quite the same as what your girl is doing though, but I thought I'd throw it out there. Brandy did well for a long time with chiropractic, Adequan and laser therapy (along with Metacam for those tough days).

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 03:43 PM
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My poor memory. Someone was just telling me the other day that their dog had arthritis of the feet and they described symptoms to me similar to Eva.
If memory returns I will call them and see what the vet suggested. I just remember thinking at the time - I have never heard of a dog having arthritis in the feet only.

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 04:18 PM
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In your shoes I'd probably want to consult a specialist, but I tend to be a worrier, and my dogs do have insurance. Your mileage may vary.


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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 07:11 PM
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Ali's front does something lie that SD - I have to agree with what your vet said - that her rear quarters have lost muscle as Ali has - she will lick hers like Eva - I rubbed her first joint above her paw and she loves that - matter of fact - she will walk up to me and hold her paw up - Wake up DAD ! And rub it - then she will lift the other leg and I will rub it .


Ali is 11 and Kaisa was older - when see did the same - there is a connection to the older age , I believe - I will see if I have a picture of Ali and post it - if not - I will get one . I personally don't think its anything to super worry about - it father time that's a bitch .


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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 03:43 PM
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It looks like it may be the carpus joint (her knee) that is causing the toe in and what's happening with her feet. Sometimes this is just a result of aging--you can certainly have a dog with arthritis in the carpus.

If you look at her standing does the toe in look like it starts at the elbow? Maybe so that it looks like her elbows aren't tight to her chest any more? That's another possibility--front assemblies have so many places they can have problems that are a direct result of time/wear and tear that without seeing the dog and seeing her move in the front it's really hard to pin point the cause.

The less angulated a dog is in front (shoulder assembly) the more stress it takes over time--so depending on her front angulation and whether or not her front angles put her shoulder and legs UNDER the body (many dogs with straightish fronts upper arm angulation actually puts the upper arm and front legs in front of the body (kind of like a bench--and it's called being bench fronted)--over time this can cause undue wear and tear on the front itself.

How old is she? The thing is that the front itself actually provides most of the weight bearing for Dobe sized dogs--so it may have taken a beating over time and what you are seeing now may have nothing to do with the rear at all.

Toad, who has a very correct front with great shoulders and proper angulation has a big problem now with his right rear because of a partial cc ligament tear and some arthritis in both stifles and hocks. But it's had no effect on his front because of it's basic correctness.

Don't know if any of this information helps but it's the kind of thing you often see in older dogs who are trying to make a not quite right front assembly more comfortable.
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Last edited by dobebug; 01-18-2019 at 03:46 PM.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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DobeBug,

Thanks for your analysis of Eva's condition.

I just retook some pics of her today and included one from April 2018.
The toeing-in definitely appears to be more pronounced when she is sitting vs. standing.

Eva Standing Front View 4.2018




Eva Standing Front View 1.2019





Eva Front Quarter Standing 1.2019




Eva Closeup Side View 1.2019


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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-01-2019, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Update Eva Toeing In Photo

Spock and Eva like to go upstairs with me for regular exercise on equipment. While upstairs, one or both will go out on porch to snoop around whole neighborhood, and in their minds- guard from wild squirrel or cat attack!

I took this fuzzy pic on steps which shows a good side-by-side stance comparison of Spock and Eva. You can see Eva's slight toeing in compared to Spock's stance. (we used to call "Bow Legged" in our youth) Eva's trimmed down much on Hypo Thyroid medication and has leveled at 79.5 lbs. but also looks much leaner.


Spock vs. Eva Stance on Step Landing




Of course Spock, being the Doberboy he is, loves to run up and down the steps crazily like a wild horse! He also will try to wrestle with Eva while she is negotiating the steps, to which I put a stop to.


Spock & Eva Snooping at Upstairs Porch
(on a cold day)






SIDE NOTE: Those (2) door mats I purchased at HD for $2.97 ea, IMO the best bargain in the whole store. The are poly pro, but heavy, rubber-like mats that are perfect for Dobe owners for doors, transitions, etc. I put them on upstairs patio doors so Spock & Eva don't track in algae or pollen from porch deck onto white berber carpeting (which Spock thinks is a giant ear scratching pad!) I also use at back door and transition to MBath.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/TrafficM...-904/202616518


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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-27-2019, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Took Eva into vet about 3 weeks early for her annual Thyroid Panel blood test to verify/adjust Hypothyroid medication and also to have vet get a first hand look at her toeing-in condition.

Eva was very well behaved in busy waiting room as two Belgium shepherds(one hyper),a boxer and a menagerie of other dogs waited/transited. Vet said her forelegs were indicated signs of arthritis given her 9 y/o age coming up in June. She had some range of motion limitation in front wrist joints due to minor fusing, which is body's way of compensating for condition. Eva has plateaued at 79 lbs. weight and we agreed a 70 lb. goal would be ideal for her. More weight loss will help her forelegs since majority of weight is carried by front legs. Vet recommended reducing her diet intake more and also giving a Glucosamine supplement, such as Cosequin.

So, as with our Lanah's weight loss diet, DW last night replaced some of Eva's high calorie dog food with green beans. Only, Eva just wasn't tricked, being the picky Diva she is. See pic below, where she meticulously separated all the green beans from her dog food and left them, (for food vac, Spock)!


"Eva NO EAT Green Beans!!"

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Poke Everything.
It's New? Bark At It.
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Treat or Food? Wolf It Down.
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-27-2019, 11:11 AM
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Poor Eva,

Sound like she's going have do the hard core food adjustment (just lowering the amount and not adding anything to substitute for hi cal kibble) to get to that gold goal of 70 pounds.

So now you know what is causing the (they still call it bow legged by the way)changes in her front. Not much you can do about it except to get and keep her weight down and limit the kinds of exercise that put excess strain on the front (jumping is probably the worst but running down hill is another as is coming down stairs.)

Tell her dobebug said that aging is the pits and give her a bunch of pets for me--and maybe a low calory treat...

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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-27-2019, 04:18 PM
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Reminds me of what my horse used to do when I gave him worming medicine. That medicine (back in the dark ages) consisted of a few tablespoons of little blue pellets each about as thick as a really thick pencil lead and probably less than an eighth of an inch long...pretty small, in other words. I would mix them in with some sweet feed (back then, oats and other grains mixed with molasses--sticky.)

And when he finished eating, there would be a little pile of blue pellets on the bottom of his feed bucket.

Horses can be amazingly agile with those big thick lips, I guess.

So I would hollow out a bit of carrot and stuff it with the pellets. He'd take the carrot whole and then give me the most amazing dirty looks as he crunched it up, but there wasn't much he could do about it at that point. The medicine had to go down.

Last edited by melbrod; 03-27-2019 at 04:21 PM.
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-27-2019, 05:03 PM
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Green lipped mussels are the best natural form of glucosamine, you can buy it from chewy if your interested. Tried it with Sully but he ended up having an allergic reaction. Now we’re dealing with interdigital cysts 🤦🏻*♀️. I also use an all natural supplement for joint health, and inflammation, it has glucosamine/condroiton, tumeric, boswellia and some other good stuff. Here’s a link https://www.pureformulas.com/joint-o...sulations.html. You could also try golden milk (google for recipe), but Miss Eva might turn her nose up to it.
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