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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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Puppy Vaccines

Hi! I'm a first time Doberman owner and we brought our girl home last week. I've read a lot of posts on the DobermanTalk website and have learned a lot of great information. I wanted to reach out to the community to ask a question about puppy vaccination shots. I'm probably being a paranoid owner, but in general, I've read over-vaccination is not a good thing (especially if not necessary) so I'm open to hearing feedback on just how paranoid I'm being .

Our girl has had two rounds of shots so far:
1) Nobivac, Distemper, Parvo
2) Duramune Max 5 - Distemper, Adenovirus Type 1 and 2, Parainfluenza, and Parvovirus

Here's the dilemma I am currently facing: my breeder/mentor (well known and respected breeder/judge in the Doberman community) wants to administer the remaining 2 rounds of puppy shots, using Duramune Max 5. My vet, who I also trust, is recommending I go with Ultra Duramune DAP (Distemper, Adenovirues Type 2, and Parvovirus).

I'm not sure what to do here - on one hand, it appears Ultra Duramune DAP is almost twice as expensive than Duramune Max 5 and only has 3 virus vaccinations instead of 5. My vet says that Ultra Duramune DAP is top of the line stuff and he was a bit concerned when I mentioned my breeder/mentor would be self-administering the vaccine (if I chose to go with that option). On the other hand, my breeder says "his stuff is the best" and says that through experience and his "inner-circle" I should go with Duramune Max 5.

Any advice on how I decide to move forward? Do I really need the additional Adenovirus Type 1 and Parainfluenza virus vaccines in Duramune Max 5? I don't want to offend my breeder/mentor but I personally would be more comfortable with the vet administering the actual shot. Neither party has really provided fact-based arguments as to why their vaccine is "better". I may be totally over analyzing this but appreciate any insights!
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 08:05 PM
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of course your vet wants to do the shot as they don't make any money if your breeder does it. I personally would trust your breeder and save yourself some money.
I always did my own puppy vaccines for the whole litter and the owners were free to do the last one either with me or with their vet. i sent their records for shots, vet visit and ear cropping certificate home with them and made two copies of the vet records so they could give one to their vet.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 08:33 PM
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I agree with Fitzmar ^^ go with breeder/mentor, maintain trust & respect.

We live in Canada & once puppy, has all the shots / we only have to do Rabies, every 3 years (legal minimum) / the winter up here is cold enough (bugs die off), that flea treatments isn't even necessary.
- I had a 1977 dobe, react to Rabies vaccines once / breaks down immune system, shortens overall life

Our Holistic Vet puts Rabies vile in my right-hand while I am leash connected to our pup.
- if she can push my out-stretched left-arm down easily, while I am resisting...pups immune system is not
developed enough
- so we had to reschedule 3 months later, when pup was ready
^^ Anyone, know what this Test is called ??

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post
Our Holistic Vet puts Rabies vile in my right-hand while I am leash connected to our pup.
- if she can push my out-stretched left-arm down easily, while I am resisting...pups immune system is not
developed enough
- so we had to reschedule 3 months later, when pup was ready
^^ Anyone, know what this Test is called ??
Kinesiology biofeedback.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 09:38 AM
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Other than rabies, I give my own shots and overnight my order so I know they are handled correctly upon arrival. Saves me money (I also order cat and horse vaccines) and I don't have to contend with the vet or a breeder! But, if you don't have a lot of animals to vaccinate then I would go to the vet. They will have the animal's medical history at their fingertips, which IMHO makes any vet visits other than routine go a little easier.
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 10:23 AM
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I am doing more research on vaccines too to make sure I'm not over-vaccinating. Can you please explain this "Kinesiology biofeedback" situation further to me? When I googled it, I found Youtube vidoes of it being performed on a human but I'm missing the connection to the dog? How does your left arm strength correlate to your dogs immune system?
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 10:55 AM
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I started having my dobie's titer drawn to show his level of protection. He didn't need any more except rabies for 3 years.
I believe you can over vaccinate and by having immune system tested saves the dog just as well.
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 11:03 AM
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Some vaccinations should be specific to the area you live in and what you do with your puppy or plan to expose him or her to. Obviously you want to do distemper/parvo (in whichever combo vaccine you decide on) for 2 or 3 rounds, depending on what your vet and breeder suggest. The important thing is to space vaccinations out and not do too many things at once. Example-do rabies separately, a week or more between other vaccines. Bordatella/Kennel cough, dog flu, lepto, and lyme may be others to consider vaccinating for depending on your situation.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaDoberMom View Post
I am doing more research on vaccines too to make sure I'm not over-vaccinating. Can you please explain this "Kinesiology biofeedback" situation further to me? When I googled it, I found Youtube vidoes of it being performed on a human but I'm missing the connection to the dog? How does your left arm strength correlate to your dogs immune system?
I was wondering that myself. All it would show for my dogs is that Leo damaged a ligment in my shoulder, and that as a result, I can't hold my arm out straight while someone pushes down on it.


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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 01:58 PM
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One of the reasons many vets are reluctant to give rousing cheers to breeders who do their own vaccines has to do with WHERE the breeders obtain the vaccines.

Vaccines should be properly refrigerated for shipping and holding after shipping--and I know that some of the places that breeders (not the ones I consider "good" breeders) get their vaccines from aren't at all careful about this.)

Personally, even though I work for a vet clinic and know that in te 16 years I've been there we have changed the vaccines we use several times (because over the years vaccines have improved and we try to use those least likely to cause vaccine reactions and most likely to successfully provide immunity.

I think we are using the Duramune Max 5. The first change I remember was because we were then using one from a manufacturer whose basic vaccines had a good reputation for providing immunity but a very bad record for reactions. And the last one was because the manufacturer had guaranteed it would provide 3 year immunity (right after AAHA had changed their recommendations to 3 year vaccines after the first puppy round) It didn't and I was doing titres at the time so when the first titre came back we reviewed all the charts and rechecked titres for all dogs who were vaccinated with that vaccine and whose titres didn't show any immunity level. My dogs and several other client dogs were rechecked with a more sensitive titre test--and that showed very low levels (it's all well and good to say that titres are only going to show high levels of immunity when the dog has actually been exposed to distemper or parvo but since I show my dogs and trial them and they In and out of a very active vet clinic all the time) but that wasn't good enough for either me or our vets)--the company paid for the additional testing and they paid for the revaccination of all dogs involved.

I don't ever vaccinate for stuff other than distemper, adenovirus, parainfluenza and parvo at the same time. Rabies is always separate and I vaccinate for that at six months and repeat at 18 months and after that it's every 3 years as required by Oregon State law. Knock on wood until very recently lepto was rare in Oregon so I don't vaccinate for that but there has been a rising rate of lepto cases so I may change my mind about that.

I quit vaccinating for kennel cough after the second dog of mine who was fully vaccinated turned up with it. Since then I don't board my dogs (I've got a trade dog sitting arrangement with a friend.)

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
One of the reasons many vets are reluctant to give rousing cheers to breeders who do their own vaccines has to do with WHERE the breeders obtain the vaccines.

Vaccines should be properly refrigerated for shipping and holding after shipping--and I know that some of the places that breeders (not the ones I consider "good" breeders) get their vaccines from aren't at all careful about this.)

......

I don't ever vaccinate for stuff other than distemper, adenovirus, parainfluenza and parvo at the same time. Rabies is always separate and I vaccinate for that at six months and repeat at 18 months and after that it's every 3 years as required by Oregon State law. Knock on wood until very recently lepto was rare in Oregon so I don't vaccinate for that but there has been a rising rate of lepto cases so I may change my mind about that.

.....
Ditto to this!! ^^^^ except I am in Pennsylvania where lymes disease is rampant - so if someone lives in a heavily forested area then they might want to consider lymes. I had a dog react very badly to a lymes shot once (a greyhound) and so I don't do it.... but do go over my dogs everyday.

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:18 PM
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My girls get DHL-P, parvo, and rabies (my city finally went to a three year vaccine last year, to go along with the state law). They had to have a canine flu shot in order to be boarded, since it's pretty common in the area, and my vet works with a rescue that pulls dogs from the track in Houston.


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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaDoberMom View Post
I am doing more research on vaccines too to make sure I'm not over-vaccinating. Can you please explain this "Kinesiology biofeedback" situation further to me? When I googled it, I found Youtube vidoes of it being performed on a human but I'm missing the connection to the dog? How does your left arm strength correlate to your dogs immune system?
Kinesiology biofeedback, during Rabies shot...observed from a Holistic Vet (top in Canada, graduated in 1968).

STEPS
- pet owner stands beside puppy, relaxed
- Vet hands glass Rabies vile, and owner holds it in his/her right hand...while gripping pups collar
- pet owner stretches out left arm, perpendicular to floor
- skilled Vet performs Kinesiology, looking for acceptable biofeedback
- while pet owner tries to hold his arm, out straight...applying resistance, to a coming downward force
- Vet uses her one hand, and pushes down on pet owners hand, from the horizontal position

^^ Pet owners stretched out arm, falls at will (like magic)...therefore, pup could react to Vaccine (held in other hand, holding dogs collar).
- owners stretched out arm, stays put & resists Vets downward pressure...pups immune system is now strong enough developed, for Vaccine to be administered safely

PS - because puppy Kelly's K-feedback was a fail, first time / her Rabies shot was aborted...till months later.
- she was retested again, 3 months later & passed the test...and given the shot / reaction free

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post
Kinesiology biofeedback...observed from a Holistic Vet (top in Canada, graduated in 1968).

STEPS
- pet owner stands beside puppy, relaxed
- Vet hands glass Rabies vile, and owner holds it in his/her right hand...while gripping pups collar
- pet owner stretches out left arm, perpendicular to floor
- skilled Vet performs Kinesiology, looking for acceptable biofeedback
- while pet owner tries to hold his arm, out straight...applying resistance, to a coming downward force
- Vet uses her one hand, and pushes down on pet owners hand, from the horizontal position

^^ Pet owners stretched out arm, falls at will (like magic)...therefore, pup could react to Vaccine (held in other hand, holding dogs collar).
- owners stretched out arm, stays put & resists Vets downward pressure...pups immune system is strong enough developed, for Vaccine to be administered safely
In that case, my dogs would never receive a vaccine in their life. Ilka tore a ligment in my right shoulder, and Leo tore the same ligament in my left shoulder. I can barely hold my arms out straight at all, let alone resist downard pressure.


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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
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In that case, my dogs would never receive a vaccine in their life. Ilka tore a ligment in my right shoulder, and Leo tore the same ligament in my left shoulder. I can barely hold my arms out straight at all, let alone resist downward pressure.
I hear you, but we were amazed, at the test / like Vet magic , before our eyes.

Our Tanya in the late 1970's went lethargic, 15 minutes after a rabies boost...BAD reaction.
And sons Trevor's litter mate sister Molly, almost died at 9 years old, from rabies shot / $900 on IV, to keep her alive
- so I will use Kinesiology biofeedback now / test is so easy & telling

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 10:31 PM
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 07:00 AM
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I only vaccine for Distemper and Parvo. I do the Lipto due to the fact that I travel and compete in Nose Work and we trail in the woods, camp grounds and other outside locations and there are critters everywhere. Rabies in Florida in one shot as a puppy, then one year later booster and then not again for 4-5 yrs later. I tiered as I do not believe in giving vaccine, My girl is 3.5 yrs old and her immune system is still in the very high range. I follow Jean Dodds, DVM protocols.
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-15-2018, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone! We decided to go with the Duramune Max 5.
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