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post #1 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 10:56 PM Thread Starter
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Cardio

So all these threads about Cardio problems have me very much on alert and somewhat worried that it could strike us next. I have a few questions that I was hoping someone would answer for me.

First of all, what is the most effective way in diagnosing any cardio problems ahead of time?

On average how much does it cost to do some of these tests? such as a holter?

If it is caught early enough is there really much that can be done to keep them pain free and have a good long life?

My heart goes out to everyone on the board that is currently dealing with this vicious disease that strikes these amazing dog.
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post #2 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 10:59 PM
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I think holter would show early detection, I asked my vet and it was pretty pricey. If I'm thinking clearly, he said almost 300$.

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post #3 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 10:59 PM Thread Starter
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I think holter would show early detection, I asked my vet and it was pretty pricey.
What is pricey?
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post #4 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:03 PM
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Sorry I edited to add: If I'm thinking clearly, he said almost 300$.

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post #5 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kpablo View Post
Sorry I edited to add: If I'm thinking clearly, he said almost 300$.
Oh ok that is not as bad as I thought. I do not even know if any of our vets have a holter. I would like to think they do. I have to get the Thyroid panel done in Sept and it is 200 so I will have to wait a bit to get the holter done. I wish they were cheap enough to buy one so you could do it a couple of times a year.
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post #6 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEstep View Post
So all these threads about Cardio problems have me very much on alert and somewhat worried that it could strike us next. I have a few questions that I was hoping someone would answer for me.

First of all, what is the most effective way in diagnosing any cardio problems ahead of time?

On average how much does it cost to do some of these tests? such as a holter?

If it is caught early enough is there really much that can be done to keep them pain free and have a good long life?

My heart goes out to everyone on the board that is currently dealing with this vicious disease that strikes these amazing dog.
The best thing to try to diagnose DCM as early as possible is to do regular echoes and 24 hour holters. These tests look for different things, and you really need them both to get as complete a picture as possible.

The cost of doing an echo can vary by location and whether you can find a cardiac clinic that offers echoes. It runs me about $400 for an echo at the cardiologist I use-although this also includes the office call and a quick ekg. They're known for being expensive, even for this area, tho.

Holters are the same way, the price varies. If you belong to a DPCA chapter club that owns their own Holter, then you can use the club Holter machine for little to nothing. If you can get a group of dobermans together and make a long term commitment, you could join the HOlter project run through Guelph University in Canada-they send you a holter to use, you return it when you're done. I believe that's about $70.

A lot of us have bought our own holter monitors. There's a $500 initial outlay, but it will pay for itself pretty quickly, especially if you have more than one dog.

Yes-it's been proven that early diagnosis and treatment with just enalapril extends lifespan in dogs whose cardiac measurements have changed, indicating occult (Hidden) DcM. There are studies being done right now to find out if PImobendan will slow the progression of the disease-it's used for dogs in chf now, but there may be a use for it before the dog goes into heart failure.

If the dog has an abnormal cardiac rhythm that puts it at risk for sudden death you can put the dog on anti arrthymic drugs. However, it's never really been proven this extends lifespan. That part is theoretical.



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post #7 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:08 PM
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Routine echocardiograms (ultrasounds of the heart) and 24 hour holter monitor.
Holter measures electrical activity of the heart looking for PVCs (also called VPCs) - basically a 24 hour ECG.

Echos let you measure the size of the chambers of the heart, look at the valves, and see how the heart is functioning.

ETA: Murreydobe was typing at the same time and gave much more detail

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post #8 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
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Wow thanks for all that Murrey. I really wish I knew of others with dobes here nearby, sounds like the Guelph Study would be the best option. No local DPCA chapter here either that I am aware of. If it cost 300 to have one done but 500 to buy one it makes me lean towards just buying one outright.
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post #9 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:14 PM
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sorry if this is an obvious answer- but what do veterinarians do when your dog is diagnosed with DCM? Is there any kind of surgery- or just medications?
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post #10 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:19 PM
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To have a Holter done at Washington State University costs around $275; an echo costs around $250. I bought a used Holter monitor from Alba Medical so I can do Holters more frequently - it's already paid for itself. It costs around $30 to have the Holter interpreted by Alba. To have it interpreted by the cardiologist at WSU is $90. Each kit to do a Holter costs $5 to replace.

We're also fortunate in that a cardiologist comes up from WSU and has an echo clinic at one of the local vet clinics for $125.

Because these costs aren't too bad, I've been able to monitor Moe and D'Va annually/biannually.

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and Foxfire's I Like it Hot "Enzo"

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post #11 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitz.kara View Post
sorry if this is an obvious answer- but what do veterinarians do when your dog is diagnosed with DCM? Is there any kind of surgery- or just medications?
There is no surgical option.

It depends on if the dog is in the early (occult) stages of the disease, or whether it's gone into congestive heart failure.

If the dog is in CHF (and most are when they're diagnosed), the first thing they do is get the dog stablized..drying the lungs out with diuetics. If the cardiac rhythm is abnormal, they'll put the dog on anti arrythmics. Then the also give the dog drugs that will slow the progession of the disease, improve heart function, etc.



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post #12 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:26 PM
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BTW-I mentioned cardiac clinics, and they can be a good way to get cardiac testing done inexpensively. But you have to be really careful-some cardiac clinics only offer ascultation, which is just listening to the heart. While this is adequate screening for *some* cardiac conditions, it's not anywhere near sufficient for DCM screening. So before you sign up, make sure they either offer echoes, holters, or both.



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post #13 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
There is no surgical option.

It depends on if the dog is in the early (occult) stages of the disease, or whether it's gone into congestive heart failure.

If the dog is in CHF (and most are when they're diagnosed), the first thing they do is get the dog stablized..drying the lungs out with diuetics. If the cardiac rhythm is abnormal, they'll put the dog on anti arrythmics. Then the also give the dog drugs that will slow the progession of the disease, improve heart function, etc.
thanks for the detailed response. Now, is there any way to reverse DCM- or "cure" it, or just slowing the disease down to give the dog more time? again, sorry if these answers seem obvious.
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post #14 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murreydobe View Post
There is no surgical option.

It depends on if the dog is in the early (occult) stages of the disease, or whether it's gone into congestive heart failure.

If the dog is in CHF (and most are when they're diagnosed), the first thing they do is get the dog stablized..drying the lungs out with diuetics. If the cardiac rhythm is abnormal, they'll put the dog on anti arrythmics. Then the also give the dog drugs that will slow the progession of the disease, improve heart function, etc.
Just wanted to add the reason most dobermans are diagnosed when they're in congestive heart failure is because dogs usually show no outward symptoms until they're in the end stages of the disease. That's why this screening we're talking about is so necessary.....



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post #15 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:29 PM
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There is no cure for DCM. It is always fatal.




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post #16 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitz.kara View Post
thanks for the detailed response. Now, is there any way to reverse DCM- or "cure" it, or just slowing the disease down to give the dog more time? again, sorry if these answers seem obvious.
There is no cure for DCM. It's a progressive disease that's always fatal. The best you can ever do is slow the disease down.



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post #17 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:30 PM
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i read something jsut now about regulating heart rhythms... ewll here it is:

Recently a Boxer dog with a heart rhythm disturbance due to cardiomyopathy had a defibrillator surgically placed to control his heart rate.

now is that just to regulate his heart beat? Not to control the disease?

Last edited by lemon; 08-17-2009 at 11:32 PM.
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post #18 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:30 PM
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Good thread, perhaps mods can make it a sticky?

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post #19 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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How do you sign up for the Guelph Holter Project?
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post #20 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:46 PM
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Not sure if I can hotlink here but here is the site:

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post #21 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitz.kara View Post
i read something jsut now about regulating heart rhythms... ewll here it is:

Recently a Boxer dog with a heart rhythm disturbance due to cardiomyopathy had a defibrillator surgically placed to control his heart rate.

now is that just to regulate his heart beat? Not to control the disease?

ARVC is more prevalent in boxers rather than DMC so that may be the difference...lots of scientific journal articles on the subject.
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post #22 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 11:52 PM
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that site said it was due to cardiomyopathy, though. I'm sure it doesn't CURE it since others informed me that on the thread that it can't be- but does this defibrillator manage DCM as well? just wondering.
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post #23 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-18-2009, 12:30 AM
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What is the age a dog should start getting tested?

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post #24 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-18-2009, 12:32 AM
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KE, glad you posted. Brings up a good personal debate for me. Seeing as often, dogs are not diagnosed until they are well into the disease and into CHF - a path to sure death - do we as good owners start testing early (we did at 2 years old) to catch early a fatal disease to do what - extend the dog's life for our sake? At what point is the dog's quality of life over? We don't know what the dog is feeling - I think a dog will try to please its owner to its last gasp of breath. So I dread not only the disease, but having to face the ultimate decision - with that or any terminal illness or injury. This is all sad and depressing to deliberate on.
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post #25 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-18-2009, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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What is the age a dog should start getting tested?
From what I read on the Guelph study they accept dogs 6 months and up. If I can get in on the study I will be glad because we will have it done yearly.
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