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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
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Puzzling health issue opinions please

My 4+ yo Dobie is Fenway. He's a rescue we've been together for 2+ years. He's my first "pet" and he's changed me and my world forever.


There have been 4 incidents in the past year that first made me panic now I mostly worry. The first time the visit to the ER was inconclusive. He improved after hours of testing and I took him home without diagnosis. Now that it has happened again I am better able to describe symptoms and onset but I have not been able to get him to ER mid crisis. We weigh the sane amount and I just can't carry him alone in an emergency but will make arrangements next time if you suggest so. BTW his regular vet has no clue really without also observing in progress.

The symptoms: he gets real quiet and removed himself from me. Lies on the floor awkwardly and stares blankly in one direction at nothing. He does not react to me, sounds, and his only reaction to touch is putting his ears back as far as they go. After a while copious ropes of drool come out if his mouth which I can wipe away. He's not at all agressive just trance-like. After a few hours he reverts back to normal and sleeps a few extra hours. It's always happened later at night and by mid-morning it's as if nothing happened.

The first time there was nothing to help the ER with diagnosis so we did pursued a lot of angles but after several hours he improved and I took him home and was just grateful he was well.

After three more times, including last night which I recognized the symptoms when we were visiting a neighbor and took him home while he was able to walk.

I'm starting to think it's some kind of poison he gets exposed to. I checked with my former pest Control company (stopped using them when I got Fenway) to see if it sounded like a pesticide and he didn't think so.

It doesn't seem to fit the description of any common Dobie or dog maladies.

The next day his appetite is normal, poop is normal, water in and out is normal.

Any ideas? Thanks for any ideas or follow up questions. I will consider anything and everything.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 05:52 PM
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Sounds like some sort of seizure to me. As to what's causing them, I have no idea. Is there a vet school within a reasonable distance that you could ask for a referral to?
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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Hi. Thanks for your suggestion. I will look into it.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 06:22 PM
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I agree with Rosemary - What can cause this ? Did they run a Thyroid test on her ? I read that - it could cause this - We had a 13 or so girl go threw what you are describing - to a point - The vet even mentioned a tumor - This is NOT to worry you !
But somethings that may help you out .

check out what can cause seizures and ask your Vet -

There is meds for this .

Best of luck

...Ken
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 06:49 PM
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I would not think it is a poisoning. If a animal can handle the first poisoning usually the second exposure is deadly.
Sorry you are having to deal with this issue.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 06:51 PM
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Definitely sounds like some type of seizure. Zoning out, non responsive (check his pupils next time, shine a light and see if they respond), drooling, and then sleeping more than usual after an episodes are textbook symptoms.

I would have a vet take a look, since its so spaced out they may not recommend any treatment, but if it is causing some health concerns they will be able to investigate further.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 07:57 PM
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The opinions above are most likely (99.9% correct). If nothing pans out, check his spine.

Something similiar used to happen to my pup. At first he would get better himself exactly as you described. It appeared that he would sense something was wrong and just lay there (he couldn't move his hind legs). Now in hindsight, he was probably just was staying still until the inflammation subsided.

On one occasion as he got older, we realized he couldn't move his back legs, we carried him to the ER and they administered IV steriods. He got better the next day and the vet also couldn't figure out what was going on.

Years went by and the same thing happened. After laying there for a while, he got off the couch and I heard a "pop". And sadly he instantly became paralyzed to the lower half of his body and became incontinent.

I hope this is not your case. Its still very difficult to talk about, but I just wanted to make others aware of what happened to my pup.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 10:02 PM
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I also would suspect seizures, though I'm certainly no vet. Could you take video and see if you can get it to a veterinary specialist? Maybe there's a teaching hospital near you?


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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 12:10 AM
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Like MC said above, it is a very good idea to get video of him during an episode. You can show that to the vet--pictures will give him a better idea of what is going on than a description can.

I would try to go to a specialist or a vet school clinic if possible. Your dog's diagnosis and treatment may require some more specialized techniques than those a general vet would typically be familiar with.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 06:59 AM
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Jallis -- Here a VERY good read on seizures from Dr. Ward DMV - Medical Conditions ---- ( VCA Hospital ) - We have took our Girl to a VCA Advanced care - Fishers IN - They were great ! Great ! They have every kind of Doctor we would ever need - We work with a Internal Medicine Doctor - That extra 2- 4 years of school shows - versus a GP type Vet - Not putting them down - BUT - Heck - I even go to a Internal Doctor - : )) There are many very good hospitals out there ! But like one said on here - You need to go to a more advanced type .

Our girl would pass out - the seizure was short lived - When she woke up - she looked confused - as in - what happened dad - The Vets - warned us - NOT to try and pet her when this happened - When she wakes - she may be spooked - confused and Bite ! She never did though . One other thing - she lost control of her bladder when waking and would pee a flood - After the first time - I kept big towel everywhere - when she was out - I would slide them under her rear end .
Untill our girl had this - I had never seen a dog have a bad seizure - but the Doc said they are very , very common in dogs and most people never see them have one - as they may be a outside dog - One Doc said it could even be a one off type of deal and never have another - One Doc said it could even be some kind of chemical imbalance -

One other thing - I read that you don't do lawn care = pesticides - I don't know if you live in town - BUT if your neighbors do lawn care - It can drift over on you - Not saying that's what is happening - but must investigate all area's - I may catch 40 ways of hell for this comment - BUT - I have often wondered if 2-4-D was connected with our girls first seizure - it is used in farm fields and Lawn care as a broadleaf control .

Best of luck !

Seizures - General for Dogs
By Ernest Ward, DVM Medical Conditions
What is a seizure or epilepsy?
Seizures are one of the most frequently reported neurological conditions in dogs. The scientific term for seizure is "ictus". A seizure may also be called a convulsion or fit and is a temporary involuntary disturbance of normal brain function that is usually accompanied by uncontrollable muscle activity.
"Epilepsy is used to describe repeated episodes of seizures."
Epilepsy is used to describe repeated episodes of seizures. With epilepsy, the seizures can be single or may occur in clusters, and they can be infrequent and unpredictable or may occur at regular intervals.
What causes seizures?

"Idiopathic epilepsy, the most common cause of seizures in the dog."
There are many causes of seizures. Idiopathic epilepsy, the most common cause of seizures in the dog, is an inherited disorder, but its exact cause is unknown. Other causes include liver disease, kidney failure, brain tumors, brain trauma, or toxins.
Seizures often occur at times of changing brain activity, such as during excitement or feeding, or as the dog is falling asleep or waking up. Affected dogs can appear completely normal between seizures.
What happens during a typical seizure?
Seizures consist of three components:
1) The pre-ictal phase, or aura, is a period of altered behavior in which the dog may hide, appear nervous, or seek out the owner. It may be restless, nervous, whining, shaking, or salivating. This may last a few seconds to a few hours. This period precedes the seizure activity, as if the dog senses that something is about to occur.
2) The ictal phase is the seizure itself and lasts from a few seconds to up to five minutes. During a seizure, the dog may lose consciousness or may just have a change in mental awareness ("absence" seizures or hallucinations such as snapping at invisible objects). If the dog experiences a grand mal, or full-blown seizure with loss of consciousness, all of the muscles of the body contract spastically and erratically. The dog usually falls over on its side and paddles its legs while seeming to be otherwise paralyzed. The head will often be drawn backward. Urination, defecation, and salivation may occur. If the seizure has not stopped within five minutes, the dog is said to be in status epilepticus or prolonged seizure. Status epilepticus is considered an immediate emergency and medical help should be sought.
3) During the post-ictal phase or the period immediately after the end of the seizure, there is confusion, disorientation, salivation, pacing, restlessness, or even temporary blindness. There is no direct correlation between the severity of the seizure and the duration of the post-ictal phase.
Is a seizure painful or dangerous to the dog?
"Dog may feel confusion and perhaps panic."
Despite the dramatic and violent appearance of a seizure, seizures are not painful, although the dog may feel confusion and perhaps panic. Contrary to popular belief, dogs do not swallow their tongues during a seizure. If you put your fingers or an object into its mouth, you will not help your pet and you run a high risk of being bitten very badly or of injuring your dog. The important thing is to keep the dog from falling or hurting itself by knocking objects onto itself. As long as it is on the floor or ground, there is little chance of harm occurring.
A single seizure is rarely dangerous to the dog. However, if the dog has multiple seizures within a short period of time (cluster seizures), or if a seizure continues for longer than a few minutes, the body temperature begins to rise. If hyperthermia or an elevated body temperature develops secondary to a seizure, another set of problems may have to be addressed.
What is status epilepticus?
Status epilepticus is a serious and life threatening situation. It is characterized by a seizure that lasts more than five minutes. Unless intravenous anticonvulsants are given immediately to stop the seizure activity, the dog may die or suffer irreversible brain damage. If status epilepticus occurs, you must seek treatment by a veterinarian immediately.
Now that the seizure is over, can we find out why it happened?
After a dog has a seizure episode, your veterinarian will begin by taking a thorough history, concentrating on possible exposure to poisonous or hallucinogenic substances or any history of head trauma. The veterinarian will also perform a physical examination, blood and urine tests and sometimes an electrocardiogram (ECG). These tests rule out disorders of the liver, kidneys, heart, electrolytes, and blood sugar levels. A heartworm test is performed if your dog is not taking heartworm preventative monthly.
If these tests are normal and there is no exposure to poison or recent trauma, further diagnostics may be recommended, depending on the severity and frequency of the seizures. Occasional seizures (less frequently than once a month) are of less concern, unless they become more frequent or more severe. In this instance, a spinal fluid analysis may be performed. Depending on availability at a referral center or teaching hospital, specialized techniques such as a CT scan or MRI may also be performed to look directly at the structure of the brain.
How are seizures treated or prevented?
Treatment is usually begun only after a pet has:
1) more than one seizure a month,
2) clusters of seizures where one seizure is immediately followed by another or
3) grand mal seizures that are severe or prolonged in duration.
The two most commonly used medications to treat seizures in dogs are phenobarbital and potassium bromide. Research into the use of other anticonvulsants is ongoing, and combination therapy is often used for dogs that are poorly responsive to standard treatments.
"Once anticonvulsant medication is started, it must be given for life."
Once anticonvulsant medication is started, it must be given for life. There is evidence that, if anticonvulsant medication is started and then discontinued, the dog may have a greater risk of developing more severe seizures in the future. Even normal dogs without a history of seizures or epilepsy may be induced to seizure if placed on anticonvulsant medication and then abruptly withdrawn from it. If anticonvulsant medication must be discontinued or changed for some reason, your veterinarian will give you specific instructions for doing this.
This client information sheet is based on material written by: Ernest Ward, DVM
© Copyright 2009 Lifelearn Inc. Used and/or modified with permission under license.
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-11-2018, 08:42 AM
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what is the update with your pup ?
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 07:17 PM
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Having this issue. Any update?


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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECIN View Post
Jallis -- Here a VERY good read on seizures from Dr. Ward DMV - Medical Conditions ---- ( VCA Hospital ) - We have took our Girl to a VCA Advanced care - Fishers IN - They were great ! Great ! They have every kind of Doctor we would ever need - We work with a Internal Medicine Doctor - That extra 2- 4 years of school shows - versus a GP type Vet - Not putting them down - BUT - Heck - I even go to a Internal Doctor - : )) There are many very good hospitals out there ! But like one said on here - You need to go to a more advanced type .



Our girl would pass out - the seizure was short lived - When she woke up - she looked confused - as in - what happened dad - The Vets - warned us - NOT to try and pet her when this happened - When she wakes - she may be spooked - confused and Bite ! She never did though . One other thing - she lost control of her bladder when waking and would pee a flood - After the first time - I kept big towel everywhere - when she was out - I would slide them under her rear end .

Untill our girl had this - I had never seen a dog have a bad seizure - but the Doc said they are very , very common in dogs and most people never see them have one - as they may be a outside dog - One Doc said it could even be a one off type of deal and never have another - One Doc said it could even be some kind of chemical imbalance -



One other thing - I read that you don't do lawn care = pesticides - I don't know if you live in town - BUT if your neighbors do lawn care - It can drift over on you - Not saying that's what is happening - but must investigate all area's - I may catch 40 ways of hell for this comment - BUT - I have often wondered if 2-4-D was connected with our girls first seizure - it is used in farm fields and Lawn care as a broadleaf control .



Best of luck !



Seizures - General for Dogs

By Ernest Ward, DVM Medical Conditions

What is a seizure or epilepsy?

Seizures are one of the most frequently reported neurological conditions in dogs. The scientific term for seizure is "ictus". A seizure may also be called a convulsion or fit and is a temporary involuntary disturbance of normal brain function that is usually accompanied by uncontrollable muscle activity.

"Epilepsy is used to describe repeated episodes of seizures."

Epilepsy is used to describe repeated episodes of seizures. With epilepsy, the seizures can be single or may occur in clusters, and they can be infrequent and unpredictable or may occur at regular intervals.

What causes seizures?



"Idiopathic epilepsy, the most common cause of seizures in the dog."

There are many causes of seizures. Idiopathic epilepsy, the most common cause of seizures in the dog, is an inherited disorder, but its exact cause is unknown. Other causes include liver disease, kidney failure, brain tumors, brain trauma, or toxins.

Seizures often occur at times of changing brain activity, such as during excitement or feeding, or as the dog is falling asleep or waking up. Affected dogs can appear completely normal between seizures.

What happens during a typical seizure?

Seizures consist of three components:

1) The pre-ictal phase, or aura, is a period of altered behavior in which the dog may hide, appear nervous, or seek out the owner. It may be restless, nervous, whining, shaking, or salivating. This may last a few seconds to a few hours. This period precedes the seizure activity, as if the dog senses that something is about to occur.

2) The ictal phase is the seizure itself and lasts from a few seconds to up to five minutes. During a seizure, the dog may lose consciousness or may just have a change in mental awareness ("absence" seizures or hallucinations such as snapping at invisible objects). If the dog experiences a grand mal, or full-blown seizure with loss of consciousness, all of the muscles of the body contract spastically and erratically. The dog usually falls over on its side and paddles its legs while seeming to be otherwise paralyzed. The head will often be drawn backward. Urination, defecation, and salivation may occur. If the seizure has not stopped within five minutes, the dog is said to be in status epilepticus or prolonged seizure. Status epilepticus is considered an immediate emergency and medical help should be sought.

3) During the post-ictal phase or the period immediately after the end of the seizure, there is confusion, disorientation, salivation, pacing, restlessness, or even temporary blindness. There is no direct correlation between the severity of the seizure and the duration of the post-ictal phase.

Is a seizure painful or dangerous to the dog?

"Dog may feel confusion and perhaps panic."

Despite the dramatic and violent appearance of a seizure, seizures are not painful, although the dog may feel confusion and perhaps panic. Contrary to popular belief, dogs do not swallow their tongues during a seizure. If you put your fingers or an object into its mouth, you will not help your pet and you run a high risk of being bitten very badly or of injuring your dog. The important thing is to keep the dog from falling or hurting itself by knocking objects onto itself. As long as it is on the floor or ground, there is little chance of harm occurring.

A single seizure is rarely dangerous to the dog. However, if the dog has multiple seizures within a short period of time (cluster seizures), or if a seizure continues for longer than a few minutes, the body temperature begins to rise. If hyperthermia or an elevated body temperature develops secondary to a seizure, another set of problems may have to be addressed.

What is status epilepticus?

Status epilepticus is a serious and life threatening situation. It is characterized by a seizure that lasts more than five minutes. Unless intravenous anticonvulsants are given immediately to stop the seizure activity, the dog may die or suffer irreversible brain damage. If status epilepticus occurs, you must seek treatment by a veterinarian immediately.

Now that the seizure is over, can we find out why it happened?

After a dog has a seizure episode, your veterinarian will begin by taking a thorough history, concentrating on possible exposure to poisonous or hallucinogenic substances or any history of head trauma. The veterinarian will also perform a physical examination, blood and urine tests and sometimes an electrocardiogram (ECG). These tests rule out disorders of the liver, kidneys, heart, electrolytes, and blood sugar levels. A heartworm test is performed if your dog is not taking heartworm preventative monthly.

If these tests are normal and there is no exposure to poison or recent trauma, further diagnostics may be recommended, depending on the severity and frequency of the seizures. Occasional seizures (less frequently than once a month) are of less concern, unless they become more frequent or more severe. In this instance, a spinal fluid analysis may be performed. Depending on availability at a referral center or teaching hospital, specialized techniques such as a CT scan or MRI may also be performed to look directly at the structure of the brain.

How are seizures treated or prevented?

Treatment is usually begun only after a pet has:

1) more than one seizure a month,

2) clusters of seizures where one seizure is immediately followed by another or

3) grand mal seizures that are severe or prolonged in duration.

The two most commonly used medications to treat seizures in dogs are phenobarbital and potassium bromide. Research into the use of other anticonvulsants is ongoing, and combination therapy is often used for dogs that are poorly responsive to standard treatments.

"Once anticonvulsant medication is started, it must be given for life."

Once anticonvulsant medication is started, it must be given for life. There is evidence that, if anticonvulsant medication is started and then discontinued, the dog may have a greater risk of developing more severe seizures in the future. Even normal dogs without a history of seizures or epilepsy may be induced to seizure if placed on anticonvulsant medication and then abruptly withdrawn from it. If anticonvulsant medication must be discontinued or changed for some reason, your veterinarian will give you specific instructions for doing this.

This client information sheet is based on material written by: Ernest Ward, DVM

Copyright 2009 Lifelearn Inc. Used and/or modified with permission under license.


Ecin,

Having this issue currently with our 3.5 old red and rust. Please let me know what happened with your pup. We are at the stage where anticonvulsants are being suggested. (First two seizures where ten days apart in the same month)


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