Spaying Questions - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Doberman Health If it has to do with your dog and its health post here.

 3Likes
  • 2 Post By Fitzmar Dobermans
  • 1 Post By TallStef
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-14-2018, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
Big Pup
 
GameOfDobermans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 37
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit GameOfDobermans's Gallery
Thanks: 27
Thanked 34 Times in 13 Posts
   
Spaying Questions

Hello,

It's getting close to the time when we decide about when, how, etc. to spay our 5 month old Brienne and I was hoping for some experienced advice on this subject.

Spaying Questions:

What issues are there when spaying a Doberman before her first heat? I’ve read many different forums and articles and there doesn’t seem to be any consensus.

Will spaying before first heat interfere with Brienne’s growth, cause incontinence, growth plate issues, orthopedic issues, obesity?

I’ve also read that spaying before first heat could prevent certain cancers.

Is incontinence something that definitely happens when they are spayed? I don’t recall our chocolate lab having any issues with that after spaying her. I also don’t remember how old she was when we had it done, it was a long time ago.

Another question: I am told there are 2 ways to do the spaying - the ‘traditional’ way - removing her uterus and ovaries (ovariohysterectomy) through a surgical incision or removing just her ovaries, which can be done laparoscopically. Both are said to accomplish the same thing but removing the uterus along with the ovaries is just how most vets do it. We never asked when we had our lab (no Google back then) so I assume she had the works removed. The laproscopic way would seem easier on Brienne and a quicker recovery I would think.

She isn’t going to be a show dog, she is our family pet. I obviously want to avoid any health issues but I also really want to avoid the incontinence issue if at all possible.

I don’t know if spaying before or after first heat or doing a full ovariohysterectomy vs. just removing ovaries changes any of the above issues.

Anyone with experience in this area I’d love to hear what your opinions are and what issues or non-issues it caused for your Dobe.

Thank you!
GameOfDobermans is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to GameOfDobermans For This Useful Post:
TallStef (01-20-2018)
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-14-2018, 07:07 PM
Alpha
 
Fitzmar Dobermans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,881
Location: S. E. Pennsylvania
Dogs Name: Harvard, Jezebel, & Mabel
Titles: AKC CH & GrCh, RN, CGC & CGCA
Dogs Age: 12/20/07, 2/26/12, and 2/26/18
Gallery Pics: 13
Visit Fitzmar Dobermans's Gallery
Thanks: 3,803
Thanked 19,127 Times in 4,237 Posts
Images: 13
                     
Click here to find out how Fitzmar Dobermans became a supporter
For pet homes, this is what most reputable breeders will recommend: Let your puppy go through one heat - it is a big responsibility on the owners part to make sure that your puppy stays safe during this time. You will need some kind of "fancy pants" to minimize the mess, but truthfully can use a pair of boys underwear with a panti liner and let her tail come out the fly. Do not leave this on her when she is crated...... some girls eat their pants and liners - gross but true!

Once she comes out of heat, wait 2-3 months and have a traditional spay done. Make your appointment well ahead of time.

Allowing one heat will make sure that her vulva is not inverted - which does sometimes happen with immature girls and almost always self corrects during her first heat. It allows her to mature more with hormones. It will lessen the chance of spay incontinence - spaying in the middle between two heats lessens it also.

I personally am not a fan of leaving a bitch partially intact. Dogs are not like humans - I personally think that there are more possible long term health issues with a partial spay than a complete one.
dobebug and ECIN like this.

Mary Jo Ansel
Fitzmar


AKC GRCH/UKC CH Fitzmar's Command A Minute CGC "Harvard"
Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil RN CGC "Jezebel"
Jalyn One Moment Please "Mabel"
RIP CH. Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise" 2/22/2005 - 4/1/2016

Last edited by Fitzmar Dobermans; 01-14-2018 at 07:23 PM.
Fitzmar Dobermans is offline  
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Fitzmar Dobermans For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (01-20-2018), dax0402 (01-20-2018), dobebug (01-14-2018), dobegal (01-21-2018), Dobe_Mom (01-20-2018), ECIN (01-15-2018), falnfenix (01-20-2018), melbrod (01-14-2018), Rosemary (01-14-2018)
post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 07:44 AM
Alpha
 
Kansadobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,896
Location: Kansas USA
Dogs Name: Breeder for over 40 Years
Titles: Bred 40+ AKC Champions, Top 20 Conformation and Obedience Contenders, and SCH Titled

Gallery Pics: 15
Visit Kansadobe's Gallery
Thanks: 2,485
Thanked 10,003 Times in 1,510 Posts
Images: 15
                     
If are responsible dog owner, there is really not a reason to ever spay your female.

If you want your female to look like a lady, you need to wait until she has had AT LEAST 1 heat cycle. She will look androgynous and "Doggy/Butchy" if she is spayed before that.

There is medical evidence that early spay and neutering causes the delaying of physical maturity and the closure of growth plates which is usually at around 12-18 months on both males and females.

There have been studies in Rottweilers and Golden Retrievers where is was found that the majority of females that were 13 years of age or more were still intact.

So, there are advantages in at least waiting and if you are a responsible owner there is not a necessity to have her spayed at all. We recommend to our puppy buyers that they wait until she is at least 2 years old if you think you must spay her.

Of course, if you are incapable of not letting her be accidently bred, you might as well spay her ASAP....

Kansadobe is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Kansadobe For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (01-20-2018), dax0402 (01-20-2018), dobebug (01-16-2018), dobegal (01-21-2018), ShelianDobe (01-15-2018), TallStef (01-20-2018)
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 07:12 AM Thread Starter
Big Pup
 
GameOfDobermans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 37
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit GameOfDobermans's Gallery
Thanks: 27
Thanked 34 Times in 13 Posts
   
Can you explain 'wanting our female to look like a lady' means? Why will she look androgynous if she is spayed before at least one heat cycle?

Thank you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
If are responsible dog owner, there is really not a reason to ever spay your female.

If you want your female to look like a lady, you need to wait until she has had AT LEAST 1 heat cycle. She will look androgynous and "Doggy/Butchy" if she is spayed before that.

There is medical evidence that early spay and neutering causes the delaying of physical maturity and the closure of growth plates which is usually at around 12-18 months on both males and females.

There have been studies in Rottweilers and Golden Retrievers where is was found that the majority of females that were 13 years of age or more were still intact.

So, there are advantages in at least waiting and if you are a responsible owner there is not a necessity to have her spayed at all. We recommend to our puppy buyers that they wait until she is at least 2 years old if you think you must spay her.

Of course, if you are incapable of not letting her be accidently bred, you might as well spay her ASAP....
GameOfDobermans is offline  
post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 01:36 PM
ಠ_ಠ
 
falnfenix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 6,345
Location: Baltimore
Dogs Name: Ripley; R.I.P. Deckard
Titles: WAC
Dogs Age: DOB 7/8/13
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit falnfenix's Gallery
Thanks: 16,769
Thanked 13,690 Times in 4,573 Posts
                     
In short? Hormones help all mammals to mature properly. Physical maturation is part of that. Without hormones, she'll look...odd...and not like an adult.

“I am the sea witch. I am the tide you fear and the turning you can't deny. I am the sound of the waves running over your bones on the beach, little man, and I am not amused at finding you on my doorstep.”
- the Luidaeg, Chimes at Midnight

DPCA Chapter Club: http://www.mbdpc.net/
Regional rescue: http://www.dobe.net/
falnfenix is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to falnfenix For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (01-20-2018)
post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 01:51 PM Thread Starter
Big Pup
 
GameOfDobermans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 37
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit GameOfDobermans's Gallery
Thanks: 27
Thanked 34 Times in 13 Posts
   
Is there somewhere online or on this site that I could see what the difference would be? Our Labrador was spayed and I don't recall her looking different from other females, except the ones that had litters of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
In short? Hormones help all mammals to mature properly. Physical maturation is part of that. Without hormones, she'll look...odd...and not like an adult.
GameOfDobermans is offline  
post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 02:09 PM
Pocket Doberman!
 
TallStef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 162
Location: East Coast
Dogs Name: Starbuck - Fidelis N' Wingate's Lucky Charm
Titles: Nosebiter Extraodinaire
Dogs Age: DOB 3/13/15
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit TallStef's Gallery
Thanks: 328
Thanked 562 Times in 124 Posts
Images: 22
                     
I think it's great that she's 'just a pet'. Her being a pet doesn't necessarily have to affect your altering decisions, though. My questions to you are:

1. Can you handle the MESS of going through a heat cycle with your dog? It's messy, it STINKS (why does no one mention the *smell*?), and be prepared to shampoo your carpets and go through a box or two of pads. Chlorophyll helps.
2. Can you keep her contained during a heat cycle, and for about a week after? That means on a leash, supervised in a securely fenced in yard, crated, and at least 2 doors in between her and any intact males at all times.
3. Did your breeder want her left intact?

If your answers to either of those are no, please go ahead and alter her ASAP - before her first heat. The world doesn't need any more unwanted puppies, especially from an bitch that's way too young and probably not health tested. There's no clear-cut, right or wrong answer about when to alter your pets, but we can all agree that we don't need any more poorly-bred or mixed-breed Dobermans.

If you answer yes to all of the above, then you can definitely choose to leave her intact for a heat cycle or two. The benefits:

-Less chance of inverted vulva/recurring UTIs (my neighbor is dealing with this with her bitch)
-0 chance of unwanted puppies
-less mess and fuss
-can prevent the occurrence of certain cancers
-according to some studies, can increase lifespan in large breed dogs (if left intact until 4 - I think this was the golden retriever and rottweiler study)
-lowers the risk of growth plates staying open too long, leading to orthopedic issues
-*can* lower the risk of leaky bladders

The cons of leaving her intact:

-dealing with heats
-the risk of pyometra
-increased risk of certain cancers
-convincing your vets this is a good idea (most are pro-spay)
-having people lecture you for leaving your girl intact like it's their personal crusade to alter every pet they see.

It's up to you, or it's between you and your breeder. My personal vote is to leave them intact as long as possible, but that's only if you're willing to prevent unwanted litters. If you're not, or you don't think you can, I would vote to spay ASAP.

As far as the differences between an ovariectomy and an ovariohysterectomy, it's up to you and your vet. Lots of US vets will do either procedure. My vet is very pro-oavariectomies. She says it's a smaller incision, less bleeding, less risk to the dog, less time under anesthesia, etc. She said that in her experience, bitches have fewer "leaky bladder" issues after it, but not all vets agree on that. It's a common misconception that there's a risk of uterine infection and cancers if you only remove the ovaries, but the uterus actually atrophies and disappears on its own. As far as I've been able to find, there are no studies proving that there's more long-term risk with an ovariectomy.

This article is by a vet from Belgium who is currently in PA on his experiences with both procedures.
Two Ways of Spaying a Dog: Ovariohysterectomy vs. Ovariectomy
GameOfDobermans likes this.
TallStef is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to TallStef For This Useful Post:
GameOfDobermans (01-20-2018)
post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 10:53 PM
ಠ_ಠ
 
falnfenix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 6,345
Location: Baltimore
Dogs Name: Ripley; R.I.P. Deckard
Titles: WAC
Dogs Age: DOB 7/8/13
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit falnfenix's Gallery
Thanks: 16,769
Thanked 13,690 Times in 4,573 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by GameOfDobermans View Post
Is there somewhere online or on this site that I could see what the difference would be? Our Labrador was spayed and I don't recall her looking different from other females, except the ones that had litters of course.
Honestly, you'll have to do the legwork with searching Google...but if you've done any research studying show bitches, you cannot expect that look with a pediatric spay. She'll be lankier, taller, and "unfinished."

“I am the sea witch. I am the tide you fear and the turning you can't deny. I am the sound of the waves running over your bones on the beach, little man, and I am not amused at finding you on my doorstep.”
- the Luidaeg, Chimes at Midnight

DPCA Chapter Club: http://www.mbdpc.net/
Regional rescue: http://www.dobe.net/
falnfenix is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to falnfenix For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (01-21-2018), dobegal (01-21-2018)
post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 11:32 PM
Pocket Doberman!
 
TallStef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 162
Location: East Coast
Dogs Name: Starbuck - Fidelis N' Wingate's Lucky Charm
Titles: Nosebiter Extraodinaire
Dogs Age: DOB 3/13/15
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit TallStef's Gallery
Thanks: 328
Thanked 562 Times in 124 Posts
Images: 22
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
Honestly, you'll have to do the legwork with searching Google...but if you've done any research studying show bitches, you cannot expect that look with a pediatric spay. She'll be lankier, taller, and "unfinished."
Are you talking about this kind of difference? (To the OP: this is dramatic, because it's a poorly bred dog vs a show dog, but the pets altered early grow taller, lack bone, and don't fill out nearly as much.)



TallStef is offline  
post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2018, 08:44 AM
ಠ_ಠ
 
falnfenix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 6,345
Location: Baltimore
Dogs Name: Ripley; R.I.P. Deckard
Titles: WAC
Dogs Age: DOB 7/8/13
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit falnfenix's Gallery
Thanks: 16,769
Thanked 13,690 Times in 4,573 Posts
                     
Yup, that's what I'm talking about. Hormones are important for correct growth.

“I am the sea witch. I am the tide you fear and the turning you can't deny. I am the sound of the waves running over your bones on the beach, little man, and I am not amused at finding you on my doorstep.”
- the Luidaeg, Chimes at Midnight

DPCA Chapter Club: http://www.mbdpc.net/
Regional rescue: http://www.dobe.net/
falnfenix is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to falnfenix For This Useful Post:
dobegal (01-21-2018), TallStef (01-21-2018)
post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2018, 12:08 PM
Pocket Doberman!
 
TallStef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 162
Location: East Coast
Dogs Name: Starbuck - Fidelis N' Wingate's Lucky Charm
Titles: Nosebiter Extraodinaire
Dogs Age: DOB 3/13/15
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit TallStef's Gallery
Thanks: 328
Thanked 562 Times in 124 Posts
Images: 22
                     
Fainfenix, you can find a lot of examples of this in a 15-20 second google search. I used "rescue doberman" and "grand champion doberman" as my keywords, but you can also use terms like "pediatric spay/neuter" or "early spay/neuter."

OP: your results may vary - I've met pediatric s/n dogs that have TONS of bone and look very masculine, and I've met intact dogs and bitches that remain slim and narrow. But, in general, letting your dog get the hormones they're supposed to have up until at least 2 tends to result in a dog that looks more like they're supposed to. My girl is almost 3 and has what I would consider medium bone for the breed. Her half sister, who has a different father, has INSANE amounts of bone and is a much "thicker" looking dog. Genetics play a huge part, and it can also be a roll of the dice - you'll see dogs with more or less bone among full siblings.

Last edited by TallStef; 01-21-2018 at 12:11 PM.
TallStef is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to TallStef For This Useful Post:
falnfenix (01-21-2018)
post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2018, 01:05 PM
ಠ_ಠ
 
falnfenix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 6,345
Location: Baltimore
Dogs Name: Ripley; R.I.P. Deckard
Titles: WAC
Dogs Age: DOB 7/8/13
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit falnfenix's Gallery
Thanks: 16,769
Thanked 13,690 Times in 4,573 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by TallStef View Post
Fainfenix, you can find a lot of examples of this in a 15-20 second google search. I used "rescue doberman" and "grand champion doberman" as my keywords, but you can also use terms like "pediatric spay/neuter" or "early spay/neuter."
I've been commenting from a phone. It's a bit unwieldy to swap back and forth on a device this small.

“I am the sea witch. I am the tide you fear and the turning you can't deny. I am the sound of the waves running over your bones on the beach, little man, and I am not amused at finding you on my doorstep.”
- the Luidaeg, Chimes at Midnight

DPCA Chapter Club: http://www.mbdpc.net/
Regional rescue: http://www.dobe.net/
falnfenix is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to falnfenix For This Useful Post:
TallStef (01-21-2018)
post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2018, 03:19 PM
Pocket Doberman!
 
TallStef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 162
Location: East Coast
Dogs Name: Starbuck - Fidelis N' Wingate's Lucky Charm
Titles: Nosebiter Extraodinaire
Dogs Age: DOB 3/13/15
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit TallStef's Gallery
Thanks: 328
Thanked 562 Times in 124 Posts
Images: 22
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
I've been commenting from a phone. It's a bit unwieldy to swap back and forth on a device this small.
I feel you on that! Dobermantalk doesn't even work on my phone.
TallStef is offline  
post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2018, 03:39 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,197
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V ACT1 RATI WAC; Sypha: NW1 NW2 L1C L1V L1E RATI SOG WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 46,808
Thanked 56,680 Times in 15,517 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
I'm not sure those photos are really a fair assessment...we're talking about a really well bred dog verses a very, very poorly bred dog.

I'm not suggesting there isn't a decent amount of evidence that waiting to spay/neuter is generally a good idea, assuming the owner is fully prepared to do so, but I wouldn't make that decision based on looks, but rather on a real assessment of the health risks and benefits (on BOTH sides), as well as my agreement with the breeder, and discussion with my veterinarian (assuming my vet was open to that discussion and knew my capabilities as an owner).

My first bitch was spayed young, and didn't end up super leggy and "doggy" looking. My current bitch is intact at age 2.

OP - first step is to consult your breeder and have a good discussion about handling an intact bitch and what that entails (Stef gave you a fairly good start above). What does your contract say?


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT NW1 L1C L1V L1E L1I NW2 RATI SOG WAC
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (01-21-2018), Rosemary (01-21-2018)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome