PLEASE need some advice! - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-08-2017, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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PLEASE need some advice!

Dear Dobbie-experts,

I need your help: i have Franky, an 8 year old male dobbie (he JUST turned 8), eight weeks ago he was in perfect shape, high level of physical activity, not exhibiting noticeable age symptoms. Running hard off-leash one evening and next day he was limping..seemed like a muscle or ligament on his shoulder area.

the improvement was small, so we went to the vet a week later...he thought it was an injury likely coupled with arthritis...but no X Ray was done at the time.

6 weeks later, he is better, but still limping (not as much) but the muscles on the shoulder muscles are diminished. the shoulder joint seems bigger (may be because of the diminished muscles) and he is still reluctant to put weight on it.

We went for a second opinion and XRay, second vet said the protruding joint seemed like an osteosarcoma, but the Xray machine was taking fuzzy XRays and that she recommended going somewhere else for quality XRays. Same day we went back to our regular vet, Xrays were done, and Vet said no cancer, but some osteoarthritis. We asked about the 'protruding shoulder joint' and he said it is inflammation along with the way Frank carries his injured joint.

my desperate questions are how hard is to misdiagnose osteosarcoma with clear Xrays? also, is this common in old dobbies? with proper care, light exercise, and castrophen can we produce happy, limp and pain free years? i just keep thinking how excellent he was only 6 weeks ago...we love him so much and we thought dobbie experts advise may shed some light.

PS: he will have a second XRay in 10 days

THANK YOU
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-08-2017, 05:40 PM
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Hi Ro.

I am not trying to diagnose your boy Franky, but here is a DT article that links to a very comprehensive article on CVI (Wobblers). https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman...must-read.html It is worth the read. X-rays alone are pretty much worthless when diagnosing CVI. Generally it takes a mylogram to accurately diagnose a Cervical Vertebrate Instability. Personally, if your regular vet cannot accurately pinpoint your boys problem, I would consider being referred to a specialist (spinal). Mylograms are quite expensive. $2500 the last time (2 years ago) that we considered it.

Our oldest was born with a congenital CVI issue. We have dealt with it his entire life.Fortunately, as a senior now, he is totally healthy and happy, though still medicated.

Our youngest presented with symptoms similar to Franky's when he was quite young. As we were attempting to rule out CVI issues, he recovered. I turned out to be a traumatic injury that did, in fact involve his neck.

I am not suggesting that your boy has Wobbler's, but it is worth looking into, especially if your regular vet is not particularly familiar with diseases that commonly afflict Dobermans.

Best to you and Franky

John
Portland OR
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-08-2017, 10:02 PM
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Has he ever come up lame in the shoulder before now? My younger boy has been coming up lame in the shoulder, after off-leash romps, for some time. He has degenerative joint disease/mild osteoarthritis in his shoulders (and severe osteoarthritis in his wrists). He's also had tendinitis in his shoulders, which I suspect is the more likely cause for the lameness. It used to take my boy at least 1-2 weeks to stop limping, after he'd overextended himself. We were on glucosamine supplements, which helped some, but we didn't really see a big improvement until he had PRP (platelet-rich plasma) injections in his joints. That bought him a solid year of no lameness. But, a big part of it has been changing his daily habits. We've done a lot of strength-building and physical therapy and we take it easy. He just came up lame again the other day so, no more off-leash romps. It's a bummer, but it's not worth it, to see how much pain he's in when he does overextend himself off-leash.

Got any video of your boy walking, or of the protrusion? My boy never had a protrusion, so I definitely can't speak to osteosarcoma, but he would keep weight off his sore side for weeks.

If it is just osteoarthritis and/or tendonitis, it's definitely manageable. I think the hardest thing is *not* letting him do all the things he wants to do. Slowly, carefully building up the supporting muscle helps a lot. But, you can't start working on conditioning until he's pain free, and it doesn't sound like he's pain free right now. So I would say the place to start is with restricted activity, until he's showing no signs of pain. And then start out tiny, with little baby conditioning exercises, like just bearing weight on his forelimb for 10 seconds at a time and then letting him rest. There's a really good dog PT who teaches online classes; she has one starting Aug. 1 — might be worth checking out. https://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/in...p/courses/2369
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-10-2017, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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thanks!!

Dear 4x4 and Silas,
thank you for taking your time to answer. I read the Wobblers Sticky, and i think Franky does not have it given what i see with him.

It makes sense to me as it was an injury caused by running like crazy ( added to his age, etc)....i'd like to think its tendinitis..but i am no vet.... However, it seems all dobbie owners tend to face many of the same issues. I will get some pictures or video and post. I will return to the vet soon, but your input is appreciated making me think we were looking at the right things... more to come shortly. Once again, thanks from Franky and I
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-11-2017, 07:53 AM
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Hi and welcome to the forum. My Baron started having some neck issues last fall (he is 10.5). We did x-rays and started the pain meds and it settled it for a while and then it came back again before the holidays. Because of his DCM, we cannot do any MRI's or anything invasive. The x-rays showed some arthiritis and cervical age-related issues but nothing definite. We started doing laser therapy in January. Did 6 treatments in a 3 week period and now we do 1 every six weeks and he is back to his normal self. No yelping in pain when he moves his neck anymore, running and jumping like before, and is not on any meds. This might be something to look into.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-11-2017, 06:00 PM
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Yes, agree with dax on the laser therapy as well — I've heard lots of good things about it. I would certainly try it, if it were an option anywhere near me. We also did our first chiropractic adjustments and acupuncture recently; I think those helped quite a lot too. Lots of things to look into
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-13-2017, 02:46 PM
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This is a classic osteosarcoma in a tibia, it has a very distinct presentation on x-ray and is incredibly painful. It is also a fast growing tumor - if you have seen improvement over 6 weeks, that is a positive sign.

I'm glad you are doing follow up x-rays, and when they are clear (pawsitive thoughts!) I would see if you can find a rehab vet than can help you with some conditioning and puppy physical therapy to help Frankie get back to his old self.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-13-2017, 03:56 PM
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You can get ginger pills on amazon for about $12. In human studies it decreases swelling/inflammation by about 50%, with better results over the long term and with higher dosages. It's also had some of the gingerol compounds patented as chemopreventative and chemotherapy agents. Seems like an easy way to cover both bases and probably make all his joints feel a little better. Hope you have many happy years left and don't forget to try some yourself.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 01:18 PM
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Hello All,
Im having a very similar problem with my 8 year old dobe Cotto as well. Just turned 8 on July 4th and has never shown signs of aging, my vet along with everyone else says he looks and behaves like a 4 year old! Hes a big guy at 125lbs not an ounce of fat and my concern is his back right leg. He started favoring his leg about a week ago but then over the span of a day the leg swelled up and he wouldnt put any pressure on it and was crying in pain last night (after taking him to the vet for x-rays and treatment) I wanted to know if anyone has experience treating sprains or any idea as to what may have cause the immense swelling. Thanks for any help and ideas!!
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 02:29 PM
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I don't want to be an alarmist, but that really looks bad and painful. I have seen sprains, but they have not looked like that. Hopefully, to the vet sooner than later. I wish I could be of more help. Please let us know what the vet says.

"Lots of people talk to animals...Not very many listen, though...That's the problem. " ~ The Tao of Pooh
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 06:26 PM
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Thanks for the reply and it has gotten slightly bigger throughout the day. The vet said rest benadryll along with the medication and to call in the morning.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 06:43 PM
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You can get ginger pills on amazon for about $12. In human studies it decreases swelling/inflammation by about 50%, with better results over the long term and with higher dosages. It's also had some of the gingerol compounds patented as chemopreventative and chemotherapy agents. Seems like an easy way to cover both bases and probably make all his joints feel a little better. Hope you have many happy years left and don't forget to try some yourself.
Since canines are not humans & react to some compounds quite differently than humans, be very very careful administering something that you heard about on the Internet! Aspirin is a good example; what is helpful and healing for humans can be deadly to a dog. Chocolate is another example. Just because something is "natural" does not make it OK, especially in concentration. I am all about ginger for myself but I would be very careful about giving any concentrated ginger to my dog. It is actually quite a powerful medicine.

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-20-2018, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Dear All,
I thought I would write and finish my inquiry for the benefit of people that Google and find this thread in search for answers with their own dog.

First, I had to put down Franky. Anyhow, I had to put Franky to sleep. It turns out it was Osteosarcoma.

As you can read on my original posting was that he was limping, originating from one shoulder.

To the bitter end Vets were not sure what it was, only that was Cancer of some type and aspirations did not show much because it was happening from within/inside the bone. I thought Franky injured himself running, Doctor thought it was a sprain, muscle pull or even a combination of that with arthritis. Unfortunately, after 6-7 weeks a bump formed around the shoulder, while the muscles shrank. Aspirations in the area were not conclusive as the cancer was originating inside the bone. Also, the leg was getting swollen with fluid towards the end. It took us a few weeks to be able to see a doggy oncologist, but looking back, it would not have made a difference at all. We just did not know we were giving him palliative care when we were trying to nurse what we hoped was just an injury.

Anyhow, my best advise: when in doubt, get 2 or 3 vet opinions, but ALWAYS revert back to your breeder if possible. We contacted the breeder late, but she confirmed it was cancer immediately when we described the symptoms. She said Osteosarcoma just like that ran on her bloodlines. "Cancer...i have seen it before many times in our dogs".

So my suggestion is to always consult your breeder despite the years that had gone by.

Franky did not suffer much (I hope), he was always well tendered with attention and pain meds; he actually looked perky and happy. On the very day he stopped eating, he crossed the rainbow bridge. He was put down not a day too soon or too late, but i would have liked to have known that I was already giving palliative care during the weeks where we felt in "limbo" waiting to see if he would get better.


Franky was a great ambassador for the Dobbie kind, so much so, that Franky II joined us for Christmas 5 months after Franky I left us.. Its a pain having a puppy, but after missing Frank I so much, I actually like getting up 3-4 times per night to tend to junior. All the best, see you around the forum. I hope this advise helps the next Dobe owners in my previous situation.

Last edited by melbrod; 02-21-2018 at 10:31 AM. Reason: duplicate posts merged--edited to remove redundancies
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-20-2018, 11:38 PM
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Thank you for coming back to update us......I'm sorry for your loss.

Give Franky II a hug and kiss from me.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-21-2018, 09:23 AM
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What here? Am I missing something in this thread?

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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-21-2018, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
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What here? Am I missing something in this thread?
I was wondering that myself.


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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-21-2018, 09:48 AM
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Glad you all posted that question up - I looked and looked and looked - just thought I had missed something

Last edited by melbrod; 02-21-2018 at 10:48 AM.
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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-21-2018, 10:20 AM
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As a "newcomer" member who had not made very many posts, Rowarrior79's first few recent posts had to be OK'd before posting them on the forum (per DT policy). Consequently my comments appeared before the update showed up on the thread.

Sorry for the confusion.

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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-21-2018, 02:41 PM
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Rowarrior, thank you for getting back to the forum and sharing this information. This always helps us and someone in the future maybe facing the same situation. This is very sad and I am sorry for what happened to Frankie. It sounds like you were doing everything right for him.
When you feel like it be sure and send pictures of your new boy.
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 03:38 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for the kind words. I enclose a picture of Frank II , he is a great little guy and i am deeply enjoying his puppy-ness, ....but right now he has the runs (*rolling my eyes*) lots to clean up LOL
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