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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 12:51 PM
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Meadowcat stated: In my opinion, medication should be considered as a first-line treatment option for the vast majority of dogs with true behavior problems – including aggression, compulsive behavior issues, and any type of pathological anxiety. When we try to reserve the use of drugs as a last resort, something that we only try if the case is “really bad”, or if nothing else has helped, I believe that we do these dogs a tremendous disservice.

I absolutely agree with this. Several years, while shopping at I nearly deserted Walmart store at 11:30 PM, I was attacked and physically harmed resulting in very painful injuries. This trigger a recurrence of severe PTSD which I had previously suffered after being held at gunpoint by one of my high school students - I, rightfully so, fear for my life for two hours. The student shot and seriously wounded a relative after he finally left my classroom. For months after the Walmart exit that I suffered extreme anxiety and hundreds of adrenaline dumps that left me shaking and hypersensitive to the world. Every time I see an untreated reactive dog, I think I can relate to what they are experiencing physiologically and I want to tell you that, without the help of proper medication, it is extremely distressful for them.

I cringe when I hear people saying that they don't want to dope up their dog or mask the symptoms or put a Band-Aid on things. This is simply not understanding good medicine! The first line of defense when the body is reacting uncontrollably to non-life-threatening events by releasing large amounts of fear/fight hormones, is to break the cycle and usually medication is the only way to do this.

Imagine if a car is bearing down on you at 60 miles an hour and you are tied to a post in the middle of the road right in its path. Now imagine that I'm standing over on the sidewalk speaking to you in a cutesy little voice , "Oh, Fifi, look at that," and trying to feed you kibble as a reward for glancing at the car that's about to kill you. That's pretty much a straight up analogy for the way that things go down for lots of dogs with reactivity issues. Yes, of course there is not a car bearing down on them, but the reality of that does not matter. What matters is the way that their body is reacting to what is happening in the environment around them.

Perceived fear is the same as something real in terms of the physiological cascade of things that happened inside the body!!!! I can't emphasize this enough. When the physical body is reacting in a large scale fight/flight manner, there is no processing of anything because the ancient brain, the amygdala, has taken over and is running the show, dumping out lots of adrenaline and other hormones to be prepared to deal with an extreme situation. This is a miserable miserable miserable way to live and I see many dogs living this way without any help from medication because of their owners' uninformed stance against it.

What medication does is help the body stop reacting! If you read that again you will get it – the body has to stop reacting first! Then the behavioral training has a chance to get through. I tried to plow through the PTSD and I'm a very strong individual but things deteriorated to the point where I was literally debilitated by "reactivity". It reached it's peak one day when turned my head in a parking lot, saw a man approaching my car that only vaguely resembled the person who had attacked me, and experienced such a massive adrenaline dump that I was left with uncontrollable muscle spasms and unable to function whatsoever. When all that initial reaction passed, I was left with such extreme exhaustion I could barely hold a cell phone and had to call friends to come and get me. This was just from glancing out my window and seeing a person 8 yards away from me.

Reactive dogs must surely experience such physiological chaos on a sliding scale over and over and over and over again. I agree strongly with MeadowCat – I believe that many, if not most, of these dogs suffer a lot from the physiological aspects of reactivity; it is horrible. It also makes them hyper sensitive to touch, sound, and other seemingly "normal" stimuli; The same thing happens to so-called normal people and dogs after an incident of flight/fight hormones dumping into the body. There's some good research on this with the statistically large number of high-level athletes who commit violent crimes in the hours following competitions. The large and repetitive fight/flight hormone dumps that athletes experience during the competitions are thought to be linked to abnormal/aberrant behavior in the hours following those competitions.

What prescribed medication does is attempt to help stop the body's reactions stemming from the ancient fight/flight response. This most often needs to happen before any training or behavior modification is going to be able to be effective with the "reasoning brain". I had to be on medication and able to function physiologically before any intellectual training for PTSD recovery could work. Reading books, going to therapy, trying to work the exercises – it was not even 1% achievable until medication allowed me to be able to do those intellectual tasks.

Furthermore, repeated adrenaline dumps leave the immune system in a very fragile state. Please think about consulting with a veterinarian if you have a reactive dog. It's not hocus-pocus, it's good medicine to consider it as an option in the treatment plan for your dog. Reactivity is not just an emotional event or exercise, it's a miserable physical state as well.

"The amygdala and related fear perception neural networks create a state of vigilance that last well beyond the actual traumatic events. Over a long period of time the threat, in addition to coming from the external sources, may also begin to come from within the body, showing up as chronic pain and illness. People with chronic musculoskeletal pain, fibromyalgia, migraine, asthma, and cardiovascular disease, for example, are more likely to have a history of psychosocial or tissue trauma than people without these disorders. They are, in a real sense, living in a body that threatens them.

If this underlying body state deterioration is not treated, it can lead to post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), a condition that is characterized in the DSM-IV as having persistently high arousal, flashbacks of parts of the trauma event, memory loss for other parts of that event, lack of ability to concentrate, and impairment of social functioning. Note, however, that these diagnostic criteria are primarily psychological. There are significant potential effects on the body such as chronic pain, muscle tension, movement limitations, outbursts of energy followed by listlessness, not to mention consequent illnesses of the cellular pathways in the neuromuscular, digestive, cardiovascular, hormonal, and immune systems."

THE BOONDOGGLE

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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by triciakoontz View Post
Meadowcat stated: In my opinion, medication should be considered as a first-line treatment option for the vast majority of dogs with true behavior problems – including aggression, compulsive behavior issues, and any type of pathological anxiety. When we try to reserve the use of drugs as a last resort, something that we only try if the case is “really bad”, or if nothing else has helped, I believe that we do these dogs a tremendous disservice.

I absolutely agree with this. Several years, while shopping at I nearly deserted Walmart store at 11:30 PM, I was attacked and physically harmed resulting in very painful injuries. This trigger a recurrence of severe PTSD which I had previously suffered after being held at gunpoint by one of my high school students - I, rightfully so, fear for my life for two hours. The student shot and seriously wounded a relative after he finally left my classroom. For months after the Walmart exit that I suffered extreme anxiety and hundreds of adrenaline dumps that left me shaking and hypersensitive to the world. Every time I see an untreated reactive dog, I think I can relate to what they are experiencing physiologically and I want to tell you that, without the help of proper medication, it is extremely distressful for them.

I cringe when I hear people saying that they don't want to dope up their dog or mask the symptoms or put a Band-Aid on things. This is simply not understanding good medicine! The first line of defense when the body is reacting uncontrollably to non-life-threatening events by releasing large amounts of fear/fight hormones, is to break the cycle and usually medication is the only way to do this.

Imagine if a car is bearing down on you at 60 miles an hour and you are tied to a post in the middle of the road right in its path. Now imagine that I'm standing over on the sidewalk speaking to you in a cutesy little voice , "Oh, Fifi, look at that," and trying to feed you kibble as a reward for glancing at the car that's about to kill you. That's pretty much a straight up analogy for the way that things go down for lots of dogs with reactivity issues. Yes, of course there is not a car bearing down on them, but the reality of that does not matter. What matters is the way that their body is reacting to what is happening in the environment around them.

Perceived fear is the same as something real in terms of the physiological cascade of things that happened inside the body!!!! I can't emphasize this enough. When the physical body is reacting in a large scale fight/flight manner, there is no processing of anything because the ancient brain, the amygdala, has taken over and is running the show, dumping out lots of adrenaline and other hormones to be prepared to deal with an extreme situation. This is a miserable miserable miserable way to live and I see many dogs living this way without any help from medication because of their owners' uninformed stance against it.

What medication does is help the body stop reacting! If you read that again you will get it – the body has to stop reacting first! Then the behavioral training has a chance to get through. I tried to plow through the PTSD and I'm a very strong individual but things deteriorated to the point where I was literally debilitated by "reactivity". It reached it's peak one day when turned my head in a parking lot, saw a man approaching my car that only vaguely resembled the person who had attacked me, and experienced such a massive adrenaline dump that I was left with uncontrollable muscle spasms and unable to function whatsoever. With all that past, I was left with such extreme exhaustion I could not drop a cell phone and had to call friends to come and get me. This was just from glancing out my window and seeing a person 8 yards away from me.

Reactive dogs must surely experience such physiological chaos on a sliding scale over and over and over and over again. I agree strongly with MeadowCat – I believe that many, if not most, of these dogs suffer a lot from the physiological aspects of reactivity; it is horrible. It also makes them hyper sensitive to touch, sound, and other seemingly "normal" stimuli; The same thing happens to so-called normal people and dogs after an incident of large adrenaline dumping into the body. There's some good research on this with the statistically large number of high-level athletes who commit violent crimes in the hours following competitions. The large and repetitive fight/flight hormone dumps that athletes experience during the competitions are thought to be linked to abnormal/aberrant behavior in the hours following those competitions.

What prescribed medication does is attempt to help stop the body's reactions stemming from the ancient fight/flight response. This often needs to happen before any training or behavior modification is going to get through to the thinking brain. I have to be on medication and able to function physiologically before any intellectual training for PTSD recovery could happen. Reading books, going to therapy, trying to work the exercises – it was not even 1% achievable until medication allowed me to be able to do those intellectual tasks.

Furthermore, repeated adrenaline dumps leave the immune system in a very fragile state. Please think about consulting with a veterinarian if you have a reactive dog. It's not hocus-pocus, it's good medicine to consider it as an option in the treatment plan for your dog. Reactivity is not just a mental exercise, it's a miserable physical state as well.
I just want to clarify that my post was quoting an article/blog online, so those words weren't mine But I agree with you that for really reactive dogs, yes, there are very physical symptoms happening. I lived with, loved, medicated and trained that dog for a long time. I learned a lot from her. Thank you, so much, Trish, for sharing your experience. I hope it helps people understand what their dog might be experiencing, too.


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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 01:38 PM
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Good grief! Siri sucks at dictation for someone with a southern accent! Please excuse the stupid mistakes made by the retired English teacher in my post above. Waited too long to edit and fix them.

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 03:23 PM
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I didnít even notice any mistakes; I was wrapped up in your narrative.

It was mentioned way back about Gabapentin (sorry, Iím just catching up). I canít find the reference now so I canít see who mentioned it and in what context, but I can say that Kip is on Gabapentin for back pain. He is a somewhat anxious dog (Iíd call it generalized anxiety) and I havenít seen any difference in his behavior while heís been on that drug.

And a request to Windamyr without meaning to preach: Please donít flush meds down the toilet to get rid of them. They are not removed when the water is treated; it is amazing how many different drugs can be in the water you drink. Antibiotics, oral contraceptives, mood stabilizers...admittedly in trace amounts, but it is still scary.
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by apollothedog View Post
Good to know! Yeah definitely be careful with vitamin K supplements. Vitamin K1 is involved in clotting, vitamin K2 is involved in "activating" (carboxylating) a protein that moves calcium into bones. Totally different vitamins, they only both got K's because they have a similar shape. But a lot of supplements just say K and mean K1 or have both because both are generally good for you. Make sure you get pure K2 and it'll be MK4 or MK7 depending on if it comes from animals or bacteria. It's totally worth it, even years later I started taking it and gained a bunch of flexibility in the broken leg.

I'll go do some looking! Thanks!
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post #31 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 03:34 PM
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Good grief! Siri sucks at dictation for someone with a southern accent! Please excuse the stupid mistakes made by the retired English teacher in my post above. Waited too long to edit and fix them.
I didn’t know you were an English teacher. Now I’m scared to post anything. LOL
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post #32 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 05:29 PM
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I didn’t know you were an English teacher. Now I’m scared to post anything. LOL
Key word is RETIRED teacher. I refuse to edit anything ever again except my own stuff, and, as you see, I don't always even do that. I will admit though, I THINK about editing other people 's stuff - you know, kinda like an addiction.

And, when I get around to thinking about dating I'm not going near some guy who slaughters or even merely mangles the language. But I digress...

Actually, getting back on topic, both Bella and Boon were mentally restless on gabapentin tried for pain of snake and raccoon bites. It makes me hallucinate so I'd not think of using for a calming effect.

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post #33 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: the Gabapentin....not saying it works for every dog, it did at first for Mabel (at first)

https://www.aaha.org/professional/re...uidelines.aspx

Quote:
Pharmacological Intervention
Medications commonly used to treat behavioral conditions in dogs and cats include the following:

Benzodiazepines (BZDs): alprazolam, diazepam, midazolam, clonazepam, and related medications like gabapentin.
Tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs): amitriptyline, nortriptyline, clomipramine, imipramine, and doxepin.
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs): fluoxetine, paroxetine, sertraline, fluvoxamine, citalopram, and escitalopram.
Dual serotonin norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors: venlafaxine and duloxetine.
Dual serotonin 2A agonist/serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SARIs): trazadone and nefazodone.
Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs): selegiline.
Azapirones: buspirone.
Centrally acting 2A agonists that may act as hypotensives (decrease in cardiac output and peripheral vascular resistance): clonidine, guanfacine, medetomidine, and dexmedetomidine.
Local anesthetics (such as lidocaine gel): used before venipuncture, vaccination, or anal sac expression, especially in patients that have experienced procedurerelated fear or pain.
Of those medications, only clomipraminea and fluoxetine (for canine separation anxiety) and selegilineb (for canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome) are approved for dogs in the United States. Controlled studies have demonstrated the efficacy of clomipramine and fluoxetine in combination with behavior modification for treating separation anxiety. 38–44 Because there are few controlled studies for other medications or indications, most medications are used on an extra-label basis. Extra-label use of pharmaceuticals must be done in the context of diagnosis, a comprehensive treatment plan, a discussion of mechanism of action and expected changes, and full disclosure
that use is nonapproved.

Some medications can be used as needed (e.g., BZDs, 2A agonists, some SARIs, gabapentin) for fears, phobias, and panic. Daily medications may also include TCAs, SSRIs, SARIs, BZDs, 2A agonists, and gabapentin for general fears and anxieties. Onset of action may depend on biotransformation and subsequent regional brain molecular receptor changes; therefore, treatment effects for some medications may not appear for 5–8 wk. Dosage recommendations are available elsewhere. 14 Keep in mind that when combining medications, dosages may change, and interactions may occur.
ETA: there would also be different doses depending on the different issue being targeted (to the best of my knowledge), which would be why you wouldn't necessarily see anxiety being cured while being dosed for pain.

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post #34 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 05:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Mabel in general and as far as using other alternatives than prescriptions.... while I wholeheartedly agree with Tricia, I'd also like to add that every dog is different and it's a know your dog thing.

If Mabel was still highly reactive I'd be looking back at pharmaceuticals as a first choice, however since at this point in her life I would classify her issues as more anxiety than anything, that's why I'm looking into other options. I'm completely open to prescriptions if that is what she requires, but since she is in a generally stable environment, I don't see the harm in trying short trials of simpler options to help her. Ex: If I'm prone to panic attacks, I would try therapy and yoga or similar before jumping right to Perkaset (or whatever is generally prescribed).

**Not looking to argue, just trying to point out my personal reasonings for trying other options first.


IF YOUR DOG IS HAVING MAJOR ISSUES, please consult a vet and/or behaviorist first and I would highly recommend the pharmaceutical options in that scenario.

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post #35 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 07:38 PM
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Key word is RETIRED teacher. I refuse to edit anything ever again except my own stuff, and, as you see, I don't always even do that. I will admit though, I THINK about editing other people 's stuff - you know, kinda like an addiction....
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post #36 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-11-2017, 05:14 PM
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We give our Baron, Canna-Pet maple bacon flavor CBD chews that we order through cbdoilreview.org. It helps relieve his anxiety, his fearfulness (he was rescued from an abusive situation) and we're hoping it will help with any health issues that might crop up as he ages
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post #37 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-05-2018, 07:05 AM
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CBD can be derived from the cannabis plant that's why it is safe for our pet. There is no substance that can harm them from using it upon reading this https://www.greenmed.io/blog/5-ways-...help-your-pet/ It is a major phytocannabinoid, accounting for up to 40% of the plant's extract. And as a pet owner, I already tried it on my snowie. When he has a Lyme disease it is dangerous for my cat it is a tick-borne illness that is transmitted through deer ticks. And I used CBD as a medicine for him and it works.that's why its safe
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