Positive Homozygous for PDK4/DCM1 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Doberman Health If it has to do with your dog and its health post here.

 7Likes
  • 2 Post By SilasPup
  • 1 Post By Dobe_Mom
  • 1 Post By SilasPup
  • 1 Post By SilasPup
  • 1 Post By MeadowCat
  • 1 Post By windamyr1
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
Snuggle Monster
 
SilasPup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 932
Location: Oregon
Dogs Name: Silas
Titles: Canine Good Citizen, Therapy Dog Novice, Trick Dog Performer, TEAM Level 1+
Dogs Age: born 1/13/2012
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit SilasPup's Gallery
Thanks: 3,682
Thanked 3,002 Times in 790 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Positive Homozygous for PDK4/DCM1

Well, sh*t. Finally sent off the swabs for the DCM1 and DCM2 test at NCSU. Silas is positive homozygous (both genes affected) for PDK4 and, thankfully, negative for DCM2. According to the results, about 40 percent of dogs who are positive for DCM1 will develop DCM -- not quite as high as the percent of dogs who develop DCM if they test positive for DCM2 or anywhere near as high as dogs who test positive for both.

I know it doesn't really mean anything. It's not a death sentence; it just means I'll have to be more vigilant in his testing/monitoring. I'd almost rather NOT know this, tbh. Now it's just going to be this dark cloud hanging over us, this worry I'll have forever. Not that DCM wasn't ALWAYS a worry. But now I'll just be waiting for the train to hit.

UGH.
Dobs4ever and J&LinNY like this.
SilasPup is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SilasPup For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (03-01-2017), dax0402 (03-02-2017)
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 03:53 PM
Alpha
 
Dobe_Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,124
Location: New England
Dogs Name: Jossie, Jessie, Kayla, Mya, Prophet
Titles: GCH, CH, CGC, WAC, CA, CAA
Dogs Age: 9, 6, 3, 2, 18 months
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit Dobe_Mom's Gallery
Thanks: 6,024
Thanked 7,996 Times in 1,797 Posts
Images: 2
                     
Honestly this is just information to have on hand. All Doberman owners need to do echoes and holters regularly, regardless of the results of this gene test. If you had gotten a negative/ negative you may have a false sense of security.

We all need to test at least yearly and try to catch the disease early, no matter where our dogs came from.
Dobs4ever likes this.
Dobe_Mom is offline  
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Dobe_Mom For This Useful Post:
Artemis (02-25-2017), CRDobe (02-24-2017), Cressrb (02-27-2017), dax0402 (03-02-2017), dobebug (02-25-2017), falnfenix (02-24-2017), MeadowCat (02-25-2017), Sam1491 (02-26-2017), SieYa (02-24-2017)
post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 06:42 PM
Eschew Prolixity
 
melbrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 21,103
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Ori AKA Harold DogDog (Hairy Dog), RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Titles: DogDog Mouthe Extraordinaire; Kip Mr. Behavior; Capri Mis-Behavior
Dogs Age: DogDog 2 yrs?; RIP Kip 11 yrs; Capri 7 yrs; Katana 9 yrs; Caesar 13 yrs
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit melbrod's Gallery
Thanks: 61,225
Thanked 52,160 Times in 16,940 Posts
Images: 6
                     
Click here to find out how melbrod became a supporter
Now I’m confused. You say your dog has a 40% chance of developing DCM--which is less than the number quoted for all dobes.

Does the number of 40% mean 40% more likely than dogs without a homozygous PDK4? Or does the 58% number quoted below include dobes who are both occult and overt DCM (dogs tested who showed subclinical signs of arrhythmias plus dogs diagnosed with DCM?) while the 40% number means dogs that will develop clinical DCM?

According to studies done (see below), the incidence of DCM is closer to 50-60 %, which are more or less the numbers I have heard.


From two different sources: (Journal of Veterinary Medicine, and The Universities Federation for Animal Welfare UK)

Prevalence of Dilated Cardiomyopathy in Doberman Pinschers in Various Age Groups - Wess - 2010 - Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library

"DCM prevalence in various age groups was as follows: age group 1 (1 to <2 years) 3.3%, age group 2 (2 to <4 years) 9.9%, age group 3 (4 to <6 years) 12.5%, age group 4 (6 to <8 years) 43.6%, and age group 5 (>8 years) 44.1%. The cumulative prevalence of Doberman Pinscher cardiomyopathy was 58.2%. There was an equal sex distribution, but male dogs showed earlier echocardiographic changes than did female dogs, which had significantly more VPCs."


https://www.ufaw.org.uk/dogs/doberma...cardiomyopathy

"It has recently been found that the overall prevalence of dilated cardiomyopathy in Dobermans in Europe is greater than 50%”.


Last edited by melbrod; 02-24-2017 at 06:56 PM.
melbrod is online now  
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 07:34 PM Thread Starter
Snuggle Monster
 
SilasPup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 932
Location: Oregon
Dogs Name: Silas
Titles: Canine Good Citizen, Therapy Dog Novice, Trick Dog Performer, TEAM Level 1+
Dogs Age: born 1/13/2012
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit SilasPup's Gallery
Thanks: 3,682
Thanked 3,002 Times in 790 Posts
Images: 1
                     
From NCSU:

* Negative Result for both DCM1 and DCM2:The absence of both mutations in a Doberman indicates that the risk of developing DCM is low. It is still possible for a dog to develop heart disease. However, a negative result for both DCM1 and DCM2 indicates that a dog does not have either mutation known to cause DCM.

* Positive result for NCSU DCM1 only: About 40% of dogs with this mutation will develop DCM. Dogs that are positive for only DCM1 will not necessarily develop significant heart disease. Breeding recommendations: Dogs positive for DCM1 should NEVER be bred to a dog that is positive for NCSU DCM 2 since this will lead to dogs that are highest risk of developing DCM. Dogs that are positive homozygous for DCM1 should ideally not be bred.

* Positive Result for NCSU DCM2 only: About 50% of dogs with this mutation will develop DCM. Dogs that are positive for only DCM2 will not necessarily develop significant heart disease. Breeding recommendations: Dogs are positive for DCM2 should NEVER be bred to a dog that is positive for NCSU DCM1 (PDK4) since this will lead to dogs that are highest risk of developing DCM. Dogs that are positive homozygous for DCM2 should ideally not be bred.

* Positive result for both NCSU DCM1 and NCSU DCM2: Dogs that positive for BOTH DCM1 & DCM2 are at a very HIGH risk of developing DCM and should be carefully monitored by your veterinarian for signs of disease. Annual evaluation by a cardiologist with an echocardiogram and Holter monitor after 3 years of age is recommended. Breeding recommendations: Dogs that are positive for both DCM1 & DCM2 are at the HIGHEST risk of developing DCM and should ideally not be bred since they can pass both traits on. They should never be bred to a dog that is positive for either test.
Dobs4ever likes this.
SilasPup is offline  
post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
Snuggle Monster
 
SilasPup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 932
Location: Oregon
Dogs Name: Silas
Titles: Canine Good Citizen, Therapy Dog Novice, Trick Dog Performer, TEAM Level 1+
Dogs Age: born 1/13/2012
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit SilasPup's Gallery
Thanks: 3,682
Thanked 3,002 Times in 790 Posts
Images: 1
                     
So, NCSU is testing for two genes: DCM1/PDK4 and DCM2. Dogs who only have the DCM1 gene (like Silas) have a 40 percent chance of developing DCM. Dogs who have the DCM2 gene have a 50% chance of developing the disease. Dogs who have BOTH genes have a much higher chance of developing DCM. And dogs who have neither marker have a very low chance of developing DCM (but the fact that those dogs could still develop DCM means there are probably other, still unidentified genes that can cause DCM). So you have dogs with a very low chance of developing the disease and dogs with a very high chance of developing the disease, and everything in between, based on which of these two genes the dog has.

That 58% number, which I've also seen before, is an average of all Dobes. It doesn't look at whether those dogs have the DCM1 or the DCM2 gene, or both, or neither. This NCSU test breaks down the percentages into categories (DCM1 present, DCM2 present, both present, neither present). The other studies are an average of all those categories. So it may be true that 58% of all Dobes will develop DCM, but only 40 percent of Dobes with the DCM1 gene will develop DCM. Both figures can be true.

I think one other thing to note is that, if I remember correctly, those 50+ numbers were studies of European Dobes. I think it's been suggested by some studies that frequency may be higher in European Dobes.

And, remember too, a dog can have the genes that cause DCM but, for whatever reason, those genes don't get "switched on." Which is why some dogs can have both genes and still never develop DCM. And we don't know what switches those genes on or keeps them turned off. We just know a dog with both genes is much more likely to develop DCM.
Dobs4ever likes this.

Last edited by SilasPup; 02-24-2017 at 09:00 PM.
SilasPup is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to SilasPup For This Useful Post:
melbrod (02-24-2017)
post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-25-2017, 08:08 AM
Alpha
 
Dobs4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,246
Location: Missouri
Dogs Name: Gunner, Eika, Ayla, Shrock...
Titles: Intl CH, BH, CD, T1, OB3, WAC, ATT, ATTS,
Dogs Age: 5,4, 3, 15 mos
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit Dobs4ever's Gallery
Thanks: 1,491
Thanked 5,067 Times in 2,303 Posts
Images: 5
                     
I personally question the percentages because I have had person experience with 4 dogs - 3 are prior to any testing for PDK4 or the new "DCM2" - First bitch dropped dead at 7 1/2 - necropsy showed a viral infection around the lining of her heart which caused a rupture. 2nd dog 2 years old dropped dead at a dog show while on the grooming table - necropsy showed aneurysm of the brain. 3rd dog died at 5 - had been outside for a run came in jumped up on the couch laid down the then jumped straight up in the air and screamed - necropsy showed a lesion in the lung. Last was PDK4 negative holter good 6 months prior dropped dead at 7 1/2 necropsy showed cardio failure. So one out of 4 does make me question the percentages of actual cardio.

When Dr. Meurs announced the new DCM2 test she said dogs could be negative for both and still die of cardio yet she felt they had found all the mutant genes - I think we have to remember that 3 things cause or contribute to cardio - genetics, viral or bacterial and environmental stressors. There are no guarantees and we have seen plenty of examples of dogs that test homo live past 10. My question is does it mean that the ones that live past 10 have far more valuable strong heart genes that override the negative and should we eliminate those genes. How do we balance that and make sense of it all??

Dobs4ever -
J Bar S Dobermans - Where Dobermans RULE!!!
Dobs4ever is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Dobs4ever For This Useful Post:
SilasPup (02-25-2017)
post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-25-2017, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
Snuggle Monster
 
SilasPup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 932
Location: Oregon
Dogs Name: Silas
Titles: Canine Good Citizen, Therapy Dog Novice, Trick Dog Performer, TEAM Level 1+
Dogs Age: born 1/13/2012
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit SilasPup's Gallery
Thanks: 3,682
Thanked 3,002 Times in 790 Posts
Images: 1
                     
A very informative (albeit long) explanation of the two genes and the test, including breeding ramifications, from the doctor who identified the markers: https://mymediasite.online.ncsu.edu/...6f0755f0cb9b1d
SilasPup is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to SilasPup For This Useful Post:
melbrod (02-25-2017)
post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-25-2017, 08:08 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,964
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V ACT1 RATI WAC; Sypha: NW1 NW2 L1C L1V L1E RATI SOG WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 46,349
Thanked 55,666 Times in 15,287 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
I strongly question those percentages, as I don't think we've come close to identifying all the gene mutations responsible for the development of DCM. I'm frankly surprised they are giving predictions about the development of the disease, as the last I'd heard they were strongly cautioning that these were only *one* component of many in a very complex disease. In humans, more than 50 gene mutations have been identified as linked to the development of DCM, so I hardly think that the identification of 2 mutations is predictive, at this point, of any kind of statistical probability of disease development.
Dobs4ever likes this.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT NW1 L1C L1V L1E NW2 RATI SOG WAC
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is online now  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (02-27-2017), Dobe_Mom (02-26-2017), JenBo21 (02-28-2017)
post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-25-2017, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
Snuggle Monster
 
SilasPup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 932
Location: Oregon
Dogs Name: Silas
Titles: Canine Good Citizen, Therapy Dog Novice, Trick Dog Performer, TEAM Level 1+
Dogs Age: born 1/13/2012
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit SilasPup's Gallery
Thanks: 3,682
Thanked 3,002 Times in 790 Posts
Images: 1
                     
I really can't wrap my head around the responses this thread has drawn. At all. So, forget I posted about science here. Would that I had the power of the mods to delete posts I regretted making :-/
SilasPup is offline  
post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 05:03 AM
Big Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 110
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit windamyr1's Gallery
Thanks: 54
Thanked 196 Times in 73 Posts
               
Never regret Silaspup. It stinks your boy got a double dose of this gene, but what you're reading here is some healthy skepticism of the actual role the genes play in predicting DCM in a particular dog. In a study in Germany, they found the PDK4 gene to be of no value at all in predicting DCM in the European cohort of the breed, and in fact found the same mutation in something like 84 different breeds, majority of which don't have DCM as an issue.

So, I guess what it points out is how little we, or even the scientists studying the disease really know as cold hard facts. There are ongoing studies here and in Europe, so with ANY luck at all, some of these dedicated researchers will find some hard evidence of contributory genes to the problem. Meanwhile, with your guy, you just need to do what you would do anyway, test him annually or more often, if he were mine, I'd probably also do the blood tests for cardiac enzymes, these seem to be a very early indicator of something going wrong and then proper follow up can be done. They're also not as expensive to do, and the dog doesn't have to wear a vest for 24 hours<G>

Meanwhile love your dog, he doesn't know that there's anything potentially wrong, and lives life to the fullest every day. Enjoy that life journey with him, hopefully for many many healthy years!!
Dobs4ever likes this.
windamyr1 is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to windamyr1 For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (02-27-2017), Darkevs (02-26-2017), Dobe_Mom (02-26-2017), MeadowCat (02-26-2017), melbrod (03-01-2017), SilasPup (02-26-2017)
post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 07:16 PM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
Why does it "stink"?
I happen to know a handful of dogs that their breeders/owners have publicly stated are homozygous for BOTH pdk4 and DCM2 genes. And guess what? All are well over 10 years of age. One just celebrated his 13th birthday and was showing in veterans.

What has been most disappointing about both of these tests is that it focuses on two genes out of a possible 50+ genes. There's no telling how many and in what combinations will produce cardio. For now, its best to just accept that the benefit of these tests is solely to promote additional research.

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (02-27-2017), Darkevs (03-02-2017), Dobe_Mom (02-27-2017), JenBo21 (02-28-2017), kaloric (03-01-2017), Q734 (03-01-2017), Rosemary (02-27-2017), windamyr1 (02-28-2017)
post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 11:56 AM
Alpha
 
kaloric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 847
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Kira & Korax
Dogs Age: Kira - 2011-08 :: Kor - 2014-01
Gallery Pics: 12
Visit kaloric's Gallery
Thanks: 2,063
Thanked 1,838 Times in 676 Posts
Images: 12
                     
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't lose any sleep over your results.

Dr. Muers' study seems primarily geared to sell diagnostic testing kits, like so many things veterinary researchers do. I have yet to see any meaningful follow-up, what is being done with the substantially larger sample size which has opened-up since the PDK4 "DCM" test has been commercially available? It's not like it was a slam-dunk, 100% conclusive genetic test, follow-up is definitely warranted to continuously validate the original conclusions. Failure to follow-up is bad science.

I still haven't seen any peer-reviewed papers published in support of the newer DCM2 test. Dr. Muers claims in that video that the dogs who test positive are at SUCH HIGH RISK THEY SHOULD NOT BE BRED!!!1!one!! Nothing in that video, which is the only information provided regarding the implications of the test, has actual data or rationale supporting that conclusion. What it is looking at? What was the sample size? This reeks of bad science.

I'm getting rather irritated at Muers and NCSU. If they're going to be making such strongly-worded recommendations, it's irresponsible and unethical for them to fail to put the rationale for such statements out there, such that folks are able to make educated decisions. They've had plenty of time to publish, and ideally would've done so before offering testing kits publicly.

I'm a huge fan of genetic diagnostic research and testing, but it's worthless garbage if misunderstood and misapplied.
kaloric is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to kaloric For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (02-28-2017), Dobe_Mom (02-28-2017), Dobiewankanobi (03-01-2017), Q734 (03-01-2017), windamyr1 (03-01-2017)
post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 07:19 PM
Big Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 110
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit windamyr1's Gallery
Thanks: 54
Thanked 196 Times in 73 Posts
               
To add to kalorics points, no one can validate the results for DCM2 as the location of the gene wasn't released. So Wess et al in Germany can't check the European population, nor can any of the labs working on health and longevity research for any breed validate the findings. I don't want to DISMISS it out of hand, but then again, it's really hard to jump on board when no one knows what it is they're testing, was it a sample of 50 dogs? 75? or was it closer to 100? No one knows. And the smaller the sample size, quite often the more skewed the results can be. After talking to some geneticists, their magic number seems to be one thousand for validating a finding. With that in mind, I'd love to see some follow up on the tested population of dogs. I'd also really like to see these labs use testing protocol that validates the breed before issuing results. The technology is out there, and it would take some of the dishonest submissions out of the equation(oh the stories you hear LOL!!)I truly hate seeing owners like Silaspup put through all the stress and worry, when it might be for naught

Last edited by windamyr1; 02-28-2017 at 07:22 PM.
windamyr1 is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to windamyr1 For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (03-01-2017), Dobiewankanobi (03-01-2017), kaloric (03-01-2017), melbrod (02-28-2017), SilasPup (03-02-2017)
post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 01:24 AM
_______
 
Q734's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,102

Gallery Pics: 26
Visit Q734's Gallery
Thanks: 11,662
Thanked 7,502 Times in 3,253 Posts
Images: 26
                     
I have no faith in these markers, from this source.
And unless I'm given a compelling reason otherwise as of this writing refuse to do those tests on my guy out of protest and in honor of a friend who had to watch her PDK4 neg girl die in front of her TWICE. People are using these results as selling points for puppies and making breeding decisions on them when in fact these tests as they are *now* in the hands of the wrong people, could well be doing damage to the breed.
Just no.
Silas I would not sweat these gene markers.

-^-^-^----_^-^-^---^-^-^-^-/\-^->
Help the doberman by doing your homework BEFORE buying!


Search a Dam or Sires health certifications

Reading Pedigrees: A Lost Art?

The Pox of Popular Sires

DOBEQUEST <-incomplete but worthwhile

DPCA Longevity List of stored Sires
Puppies on Ice: Collected sires for future use
-^-^-^-^---^-^-^-^----^---^--------/\_____
Q734 is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Q734 For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (03-01-2017), Dobiewankanobi (03-01-2017), kaloric (03-01-2017), windamyr1 (03-07-2017)
post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 05:49 PM
Big Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 110
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit windamyr1's Gallery
Thanks: 54
Thanked 196 Times in 73 Posts
               
Why does it "stink"?

Because the results, whether they're actually causative or not, cause a great deal of worry and stress in the owner of the dog. All of us can say a lot of things, don't worry, the research is still lacking etc, but it doesn't change how the owner feels one whit. A homozygous test result still strikes fear into the owners heart. So yeah, it stinks
windamyr1 is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to windamyr1 For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (03-02-2017), kaloric (03-01-2017), melbrod (03-01-2017), SilasPup (03-02-2017)
post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 07:16 PM Thread Starter
Snuggle Monster
 
SilasPup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 932
Location: Oregon
Dogs Name: Silas
Titles: Canine Good Citizen, Therapy Dog Novice, Trick Dog Performer, TEAM Level 1+
Dogs Age: born 1/13/2012
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit SilasPup's Gallery
Thanks: 3,682
Thanked 3,002 Times in 790 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Thanks to those of you who offered empathy and, especially, to those of you who offered your reasons for distrusting the test. It's hard for me to piece things together when I hear owners saying they don't put stock in the test, but don't list reasons, and then I've got my cardiologist telling me it's a pretty darn good test. (Maybe he has access to information the rest of us don't. Or maybe he doesn't.)
SilasPup is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SilasPup For This Useful Post:
melbrod (03-02-2017), windamyr1 (03-07-2017)
post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 11:39 PM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
Reasons?
I know of more than a few dogs that have tested negative for both genes and either succumbed to DCM or are currently living with CHF.

There is no science on earth that can explain that OTHER than there are simply more than two genes that cause DCM. And because of that it's hard to put much faith in a test that can't really tell me anything other than dogs who test negative MAY get DCM and dogs who test pos het MAY get DCM and dogs who test pos homo MAY get DCM.

Unfortunately for us, these tests are not as black and white as, say, a vwd DNA test. Where there can only be the 3 possibilities: clear, carrier, affected. I put more stock in Holter/echo and NTproBNP than I do in DCM1/DCM2 testing at this time.

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
Dobe_Mom (03-03-2017), Q734 (06-01-2017), Rosemary (03-03-2017), windamyr1 (03-03-2017)
post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 07:12 AM
Big Pup
 
J&LinNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 41
Location: Cuddebackville, NY
Dogs Name: Bell'Lavoro Benedetto Cane Di IL Diavolo (Gabby)
Titles: No
Dogs Age: 22 months
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit J&LinNY's Gallery
Thanks: 20
Thanked 71 Times in 25 Posts
       
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilasPup View Post
Well, sh*t. Finally sent off the swabs for the DCM1 and DCM2 test at NCSU. Silas is positive homozygous (both genes affected) for PDK4 and, thankfully, negative for DCM2. According to the results, about 40 percent of dogs who are positive for DCM1 will develop DCM -- not quite as high as the percent of dogs who develop DCM if they test positive for DCM2 or anywhere near as high as dogs who test positive for both.

I know it doesn't really mean anything. It's not a death sentence; it just means I'll have to be more vigilant in his testing/monitoring. I'd almost rather NOT know this, tbh. Now it's just going to be this dark cloud hanging over us, this worry I'll have forever. Not that DCM wasn't ALWAYS a worry. But now I'll just be waiting for the train to hit.

UGH.
We feel your pain. We have just lost our Leila to DCM. be thankful you did the test, and be diligent with your echo's and holters. Get yourself a good cardiologist and when the time comes, get Silas on meds. Hopefully all will turn out well. Leila showed nothing until it was far to late.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you and Silas.
J&LinNY is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to J&LinNY For This Useful Post:
windamyr1 (03-03-2017)
post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-01-2017, 11:13 AM
_______
 
Q734's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,102

Gallery Pics: 26
Visit Q734's Gallery
Thanks: 11,662
Thanked 7,502 Times in 3,253 Posts
Images: 26
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilasPup View Post
Thanks to those of you who offered empathy and, especially, to those of you who offered your reasons for distrusting the test. It's hard for me to piece things together when I hear owners saying they don't put stock in the test, but don't list reasons, and then I've got my cardiologist telling me it's a pretty darn good test. (Maybe he has access to information the rest of us don't. Or maybe he doesn't.)
Your dog's cardiologist said these gene tests were "pretty darn good"?

sigh.... You know I'm beginning to think more & more cardiology is an art form. I personally had a heart attack going on 2 years ago, no damage thankfully I was dehydrated & didn't know it but it was scary as hell. Woke up feeling great (can't say that very often) , thought I'd mow the yard on a gorgeous day, then felt like crap the rest of the day. (thought I'd somehow heatstroked myself altho it was only 70's outside)

One thing I was told in follow up is that tropinon levels can be elevated for a number of reasons besides heart damage: stress & infection can also raise levels. Oh & my electrolytes were off. It is frighteningly easy to become dehydrated.

So follow up appts where say I had an incident of "lightning" in my chest I'm told things like "well your ekg is good it's not your heart". No one but my gp seems to be able to offer any sort of explanation how I had a HA with only 40% blockage in 2 arteries other than "you must have had a spasm for just long enough".

Anyway I'm on my 2nd cardiologist and just tired of never getting solid answers for anything so I've become suspicious of that field. Seems unless something is GLARINGLY APPARENT RIGHT THEN AND THERE they can't give explanations or any solution.

So I concur w/the above that echos & holters and pedigree history carry more weight than these new "markers". I will never ever buy a dog based on these dcm gene tests until they start making sense with outcomes.
Real damage is being done RIGHT NOW w/these tests IMO.

-^-^-^----_^-^-^---^-^-^-^-/\-^->
Help the doberman by doing your homework BEFORE buying!


Search a Dam or Sires health certifications

Reading Pedigrees: A Lost Art?

The Pox of Popular Sires

DOBEQUEST <-incomplete but worthwhile

DPCA Longevity List of stored Sires
Puppies on Ice: Collected sires for future use
-^-^-^-^---^-^-^-^----^---^--------/\_____
Q734 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Q734 For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-02-2017)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome