Will DCM End the Doberman as a Breed? - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Doberman Health If it has to do with your dog and its health post here.

 9Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #26 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 06:09 PM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,504
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,185
Thanked 5,494 Times in 2,187 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChazTheDerperman View Post
Theoretically, as long as you're breeding to other breeds that don't have the same health problems as the ones you're trying to fix and the problems are the result of recessive alleles then you can kill two or more birds with one stone. Plus, wouldn't you agree that fixing one problem is better than doing nothing?



This actually brings up a good point that supports the idea of outcrossing. If we were to outcross the Doberman with another breed, it could actually help pin down the causes of DCM. Having genetically similar dogs from these crossed litters that do or don't develop DCM can help mitigate the genetic diversity in a sample and can help point out the key genes that are different between affected and unaffected dogs. And I'm not sure why you're so pessimistic about the possibility of this helping our breed. If we outcrossed dogs and removed the suspect DCM alleles and we still have dogs dying, then it's not genetics, it's an act of God and there's nothing we can do about it. But at least we would have tried.
So I'm calling BS on your recessive gene. Mostly bc DCM is dominant, but also bc recessive a are EASILY bred out. As I'm waiting for a few companies to get back with me where did you get your stat test most hereditary diseases are recessive? It doesn't make sense that 1) it's not bred out 2) so many dogs die from a gene that's recessive.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016), kaloric (06-17-2016)
Advertisement
 
post #27 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 06:30 PM
The Veterinarian's Minion
 
Crysser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 113
Location: Delta, BC
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Crysser's Gallery
Thanks: 474
Thanked 333 Times in 99 Posts
                     
It's so unfortunate for this wonderful breed to be in so much trouble and those who love the breed (breeders, breed clubs, etc) aren't exploring every possible avenue to save the Doberman. There's plenty of talk, but first the AKC would have to open the stud book, the breed clubs would have to insist on action (instead of screaming blue murder and digging in their heels, like the Dalmatian clubs with the Dalmatian Backcross Program), and the breeders would have to be on board. And this isn't an instance of one individual dog contributing one normal gene- it would probably take several generations of introducing several breeds.
Sadly I doubt there's much chance of breeders Holtering and Echoing their way out of this one- as I keep hearing time and again, no line is immune, no kennel is 'cardio free'. The only way to predict, rather than react, would be to somehow isolate every faulty gene responsible. But even if that were possible, to remove every carrier from breeding would severely bottleneck an already bottlenecked breed, if there were any lines left to move on with at all.
Clearly help needs to come from outside the breed, either by outcrossing or by completely recreating the Doberman from an approximation of the breeds used in its makeup. But either way, the dogs used would need to be physically and temperamentally healthy and sound- you can't just slap together any two dogs and assume your problems are over because "Hybrid Vigour!". Outcrossing needs to be done every bit as carefully as a pure breeding, so there would also need to be cooperation and collaboration with reputable breeders from other breeds to help with this undertaking as well.
But however the method, and whoever takes the first steps, I don't think anyone who loves the Doberman and wants to ensure its future can ignore the dire situation it's facing.
Crysser is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Crysser For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016), kaloric (06-17-2016)
post #28 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 06:43 PM
Alpha
 
kaloric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 850
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Kira & Korax
Dogs Age: Kira - 2011-08 :: Kor - 2014-01
Gallery Pics: 12
Visit kaloric's Gallery
Thanks: 2,071
Thanked 1,845 Times in 679 Posts
Images: 12
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
Perhaps my ignorance leads me to believe that I don't see the point in outcrossing.
1)Does it not create a mutt?
It wasn't all that long ago that the Doberman was an upstart "mutt", bred by a town dog-catcher/tax-collector. Gotta start somewhere when creating a breed, and sometimes it's necessary to get back to those basics when the foundation needs some repairs.

Quote:
2)Won't it just take health issues and multiply them because now you have the issues of 2 breeds?
It can, which is why it's a risk. There's always a risk of introducing an unknown, new problem while trying to remedy another.

Quote:
3)What breed out there is 100% healthy and compliments the Doberman? I don't see much longevity anywhere.
It's not so much about perfect health, as trying to balance out a particularly bad trait by reducing its severity. DCM isn't a simple trait that's expressed or not, it has matters of degree. Healthier cardio genes could help suppress it or at least delay the average age of onset.

Quote:
I also don't know if I believe the health is going downhill or are the stats just being reported more often now?
As with everything, the source must be considered. Where is most of the current data coming from?

It's somewhat unfortunate, but the bulk of the data is coming from conformation show breeders who dominate the dog fancy. There's a whole lot of linebreeding and Popular Sire Syndrome occurring, and it's a pretty tiny corner of the breed as a whole. They put the most effort into doing what they're doing, doing the health testing and keeping records, but there's no denying the fact that they indulge in higher-risk breeding practices.

I'm far from being convinced that the entire Doberman breed is such a wreck, though. I'd need to see more real data for that conclusion. When probably 90% of the members of the breed live and die without health screenings or any appreciable data being recorded aside from their parentage, who's to say that there aren't throwbacks to previous generations whose lines haven't been tightly linebred in a few decades, who haven't been unduly influenced by popular sire fads from the past 20 years, and that sort of thing?

Problem is, nobody knows, and few breeders with reputation to uphold want to take risks on them. It's pretty sad that when a respected breeder goes for a "vintage" litter, they get pooh-poohed by others in their circles. While that's not a guaranteed path to salvation, it has potential, and it's more within reach at this time than going for an outcross.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doberkim View Post
I have to say, i don't disagree! my "problem" becomes purely that the highest level of the sport i love the most, the best of the best, all happen in the AKC.
Yes, this is the biggest thing the AKC, FCI, and other studbooks use to maintain their stranglehold. I understand some of that, can't necessarily have everyone doing whatever they want and gaining competitive edges from coloring outside the lines, but competing studbooks and open events occasionally do gain critical mass when the old guard can't or won't fix their endemic problems. May someone correct me if I'm wrong, but clubs like the UDC may be a bit more liberal (?) and there are some working dog competitions that are more concerned with demonstrating ability than with pedigree. It's just going to be a lot rougher for folks in conformation showing circles to go out on the limb because they stand to lose access to just about every significant competition.
kaloric is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to kaloric For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016), havenminx (06-18-2016), windamyr (06-18-2016)
Advertisement
 
post #29 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 06:44 PM
Got mutt?
 
Rosemary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 13,102
Location: Southeast Texas
Dogs Name: Leo (GSD); Lily (APBT)
Titles: They do, and are working on more
Dogs Age: Leo 7; Lily 5; Ilka 2009-2017; Lucky 2000-2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rosemary's Gallery
Thanks: 39,021
Thanked 31,136 Times in 10,345 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
So I'm calling BS on your recessive gene. Mostly bc DCM is dominant, but also bc recessive a are EASILY bred out. As I'm waiting for a few companies to get back with me where did you get your stat test most hereditary diseases are recessive? It doesn't make sense that 1) it's not bred out 2) so many dogs die from a gene that's recessive.
I'm not really sure that you can claim "DCM is dominant" when there have so far only been two genes isolated. The results of +/+, +/-, and -/- are all over the place for both of them, as far as dogs actually developing DCM.

A recessive gene can actually be harder to breed out, IMO, since without a DNA test for it, you don't know if a dog carries for recessive traits, since they aren't expressed phenotypically. Used to be that breeders who wanted to know if a dog carried a recessive, they bred it to a dog that was known to carry it (by having produced pups who expressed it). For example, in Dobes, dilution is a recessive. Two black Dobes can produce blue and fawn puppies.


~~The Current Hellhounds~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~Requiescat In Pace~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!”

Last edited by Rosemary; 06-17-2016 at 06:46 PM.
Rosemary is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rosemary For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016)
post #30 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 07:31 PM
Alpha
 
kaloric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 850
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Kira & Korax
Dogs Age: Kira - 2011-08 :: Kor - 2014-01
Gallery Pics: 12
Visit kaloric's Gallery
Thanks: 2,071
Thanked 1,845 Times in 679 Posts
Images: 12
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
So I'm calling BS on your recessive gene. Mostly bc DCM is dominant, but also bc recessive a are EASILY bred out. As I'm waiting for a few companies to get back with me where did you get your stat test most hereditary diseases are recessive? It doesn't make sense that 1) it's not bred out 2) so many dogs die from a gene that's recessive.
Two interesting concepts here. They are not mutually exclusive, though.

I don't think it's too far off the mark to say that most hereditary diseases are recessive, because they would be so easy to breed-out if they were noticeable right off the bat. Nobody in their right mind would keep their hand on the throttle if their train was heading for a collision, right?

Generally speaking, it's not quite that simple-- recessive genes can become extremely commonplace and difficult to be rid of if a particular population had its gene pool throttled, with massive amounts of inbreeding occurring. It becomes nigh impossible to correct a particular trait if practically all members of the population possess it.

So, the biggest problem is when recessive genes aren't noticeable at first, but they start taking over, but nobody notices until it's a genetic disaster unfolding and it's too late to do anything about it. Too much linebreeding around a popular sire has great potential to lead to this situation.

Human eugenics and genetic counseling are extremely difficult and taboo subjects, but there's plenty we can learn as a result (due to great research funding). Good case studies involve diseases like Tay-Sachs, which are autosomal recessive, but found with extremely high frequency in a particular populations. Isolationist religious sects with relatively few patriarchs are incredible for incubating these sorts of horrible genetic diseases, as are royal families (as previously discussed). Here's another good example of what is likely a recessive hereditary disease ravaging a specific population: Genetic Disorders Hit Amish Hard - CBS News

I don't know about DCM, though. There are plenty of theories, but I don't think anyone has the first clue where it's coming from, and that's which is why it's proving so difficult to make any headway against it. It probably comes from multiple sources with various levels of dominance, and not a single definitive genetic source has been identified. There's no way to begin problem isolation without having a single "known" to work with. A known-positive can be avoided to work towards the next known. A known-negative can be used to isolate a positive factor. A jumble of unknown variables is nothing more than a crapshoot.
kaloric is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to kaloric For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016), windamyr (06-18-2016)
post #31 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 07:34 PM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,504
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,185
Thanked 5,494 Times in 2,187 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
I'm not really sure that you can claim "DCM is dominant" when there have so far only been two genes isolated. The results of +/+, +/-, and -/- are all over the place for both of them, as far as dogs actually developing DCM.

A recessive gene can actually be harder to breed out, IMO, since without a DNA test for it, you don't know if a dog carries for recessive traits, since they aren't expressed phenotypically. Used to be that breeders who wanted to know if a dog carried a recessive, they bred it to a dog that was known to carry it (by having produced pups who expressed it). For example, in Dobes, dilution is a recessive. Two black Dobes can produce blue and fawn puppies.
I know they're dominant bc the good Dr. Said so in her webinar. 😊
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016)
post #32 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 07:36 PM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,504
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,185
Thanked 5,494 Times in 2,187 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaloric View Post
Two interesting concepts here. They are not mutually exclusive, though.

I don't think it's too far off the mark to say that most hereditary diseases are recessive, because they would be so easy to breed-out if they were noticeable right off the bat. Nobody in their right mind would keep their hand on the throttle if their train was heading for a collision, right?

Generally speaking, it's not quite that simple-- recessive genes can become extremely commonplace and difficult to be rid of if a particular population had its gene pool throttled, with massive amounts of inbreeding occurring. It becomes nigh impossible to correct a particular trait if practically all members of the population possess it.

So, the biggest problem is when recessive genes aren't noticeable at first, but they start taking over, but nobody notices until it's a genetic disaster unfolding and it's too late to do anything about it. Too much linebreeding around a popular sire has great potential to lead to this situation.

Human eugenics and genetic counseling are extremely difficult and taboo subjects, but there's plenty we can learn as a result (due to great research funding). Good case studies involve diseases like Tay-Sachs, which are autosomal recessive, but found with extremely high frequency in a particular populations. Isolationist religious sects with relatively few patriarchs are incredible for incubating these sorts of horrible genetic diseases, as are royal families (as previously discussed). Here's another good example of what is likely a recessive hereditary disease ravaging a specific population: Genetic Disorders Hit Amish Hard - CBS News

I don't know about DCM, though. There are plenty of theories, but I don't think anyone has the first clue where it's coming from, and that's which is why it's proving so difficult to make any headway against it. It probably comes from multiple sources with various levels of dominance, and not a single definitive genetic source has been identified. There's no way to begin problem isolation without having a single "known" to work with. A known-positive can be avoided to work towards the next known. A known-negative can be used to isolate a positive factor. A jumble of unknown variables is nothing more than a crapshoot.
You are too smart!
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016)
post #33 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 07:51 PM
Got mutt?
 
Rosemary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 13,102
Location: Southeast Texas
Dogs Name: Leo (GSD); Lily (APBT)
Titles: They do, and are working on more
Dogs Age: Leo 7; Lily 5; Ilka 2009-2017; Lucky 2000-2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rosemary's Gallery
Thanks: 39,021
Thanked 31,136 Times in 10,345 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I know they're dominant bc the good Dr. Said so in her webinar. 😊
I'm assuming you are talking about the PDK4? That is one gene. One. How many others are there? Are they all going to be dominant? Or are there going to be a lot of ressecive one? Is the DCM-2 gene supposed to be dominant or recessive? I don't think I've heard which.


~~The Current Hellhounds~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~Requiescat In Pace~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!”
Rosemary is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rosemary For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016)
post #34 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,854
Dogs Name: Rah, Berlin and the Cherrybomb
Titles: too many to list!
Dogs Age: 5.5, 3.5, and baby
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit doberkim's Gallery
Thanks: 492
Thanked 12,283 Times in 2,449 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
So I'm calling BS on your recessive gene. Mostly bc DCM is dominant, but also bc recessive a are EASILY bred out. As I'm waiting for a few companies to get back with me where did you get your stat test most hereditary diseases are recessive? It doesn't make sense that 1) it's not bred out 2) so many dogs die from a gene that's recessive.
vWD is a simple recessive and we never bothered to rid the breed of that... not so easy when people aren't willing to make it a priority. fact is, there are clearly multiple genes involved with doberman DCM and there is clearly incomplete penetrance that result in varying expression - we just don't know enough yet. or more importantly, we know we don't know it all.

and recessives can easily be brought out when you have a breed has heavily inbred as the doberman. thats precisely the point. you do such tight breeding and you create the perfect storm where something that SHOULD have been a mild recessive gene becomes a huge factor, and in fact is overrepresented.





and kaloric - i don't play in the breed ring. i do obedience - but either way, it still ends up being AKC has long been my goal as the ultimate. maybe in the future that will change, and certainly with herding that is far from the ultimate (though i will herd with them as well). and UDC obedience is good for the dobe, but my border collie cannot - and i won't do UDC open or utility because of the higher jump hight in tiny rings - too much.


Bowie's Here Comes the Boom! UD BN RN TKP WAC CGC
Katwalk Calm Like a Bomb UDX OM1 PCD GN BN TKP CD-C CGC
Bowie's Atomic Bomb NW1 TKI
ARCHX Bowie's Semper Fidelis v DRU, UD ASCA-CDX CDX-H D-CD RE RL1X RL2X RL3 ATT WAC TT CGC VC FFX-OG
Beja's Bombs Away v Bowie, CD ASCA-CD CD-H BN RN NA NAJ RL1 WAC ATT YTT PTT CGC CHIC#71265
Bowie's Modern Love RN CGC
Forever in my heart


more beatings, less love!
doberkim is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to doberkim For This Useful Post:
ChazTheDerperman (06-17-2016), Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016), havenminx (06-18-2016), kaloric (06-17-2016)
post #35 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 09:21 PM
Alpha
 
kaloric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 850
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Kira & Korax
Dogs Age: Kira - 2011-08 :: Kor - 2014-01
Gallery Pics: 12
Visit kaloric's Gallery
Thanks: 2,071
Thanked 1,845 Times in 679 Posts
Images: 12
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
I'm assuming you are talking about the PDK4? That is one gene. One. How many others are there? Are they all going to be dominant? Or are there going to be a lot of ressecive one? Is the DCM-2 gene supposed to be dominant or recessive? I don't think I've heard which.
To add to this, if PDK4 is coming-up, it's also NOT A DCM GENE. It is not a DCM test.

(A splice site mutation in a gene encoding for PDK4, a mitochondrial protein, is associated with the development of dilated cardiomyopathy in the Do... - PubMed - NCBI is the abstract for Muers' study)

What that abstract says, in plainspeak, is the following:

"We took a bunch of genetic tests for known genetic mutations, ran them against a bunch of Dobermans, then looked at samples of their heart muscles under a scanning electron microscope. Only the test for the PDK4 mutation occurred alongside heart muscles exhibiting the signs of DCM at a frequency greater than random chance."

It's a coincidence that may only exist in the North American cohort of Dobermans. A 16-bp deletion in the canine PDK4 gene is not associated with dilated cardiomyopathy in a European cohort of Doberman Pinschers

It has nothing whatsoever to do with DCM, all it really points to is an import which happened to have one type of DCM and also that PDK4 mutation.

It is bad science to read more into this coincidence than is there. All it is to us is a starting point, geneticists may have a slightly more refined population of Dobermans to run more detailed genetic analyses on to identify the actual genes responsible. It's a very promising lead, but very, very far from conclusive, much less a slam-dunk.

More data points are helpful, so I would not discount the value of PDK4 tests, but their primary value is in furthering research.
kaloric is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to kaloric For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016), windamyr (06-18-2016)
post #36 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 09:25 PM
am the law
 
havenminx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Maine
Dogs Name: Apollo, Achilles, Eros, Prima
Titles: CGCA, CGC, ATD
Dogs Age: 7.5 (RIP); 3; 1; puppy
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit havenminx's Gallery
Thanks: 1,058
Thanked 2,341 Times in 723 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnatoldu2 View Post
While I totally agree and would want to see our dobermans living healthier lives, it also scares me. We all have our things that bother us or that we accept. I can't imagine the people, who scream bloody murder, about how awful it is to leave ears and tails, accepting any "trespass" into their dobermans type.
This was the first thing I thought of as well. We have a large amount of breeders--people who have lived with this breed for DECCADES--who have openly admitted they will leave the breed should cropping and docking become illegal. I cannot imagine these same breeders satying in the breed (or at least participating in this outcrossing project) should the studbooks be opened. Sad to say but I oredict this very much dividing the Doberman community, with an elitist attitude going along with "truly purebred" Dobermans.

havenminx is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to havenminx For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016)
post #37 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 09:45 PM
Super Moderator
 
greenkouki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,947
Location: SC

Gallery Pics: 77
Visit greenkouki's Gallery
Thanks: 19,811
Thanked 30,786 Times in 9,921 Posts
Images: 77
                     
Click here to find out how greenkouki became a supporter
In my opinion too little is known about the disease and its genetic inheritance to consider outcrossing at this point. Crossing breeds has the possibility to help eliminate or lessen the prevalence of genetic disorders and diseases as evidenced by dalmatians, but it can also introduce new problems in a breed. Then there's the consideration of what breed would even be compatible with the doberman as far as temperament, conformation/type, and overall health. I don't think there is one.

There is no denying there is a huge problem in our breed and we need to do something. I just don't think outcrossing is the answer... at least until we know more about DCM. I hate "telling" breeders what to do, but I will support breeders breeding older dogs more often or trying frozen AI from males who didn't die of DCM with good longevity. Most importantly there needs to be more breeder collaboration with Dr. Muers and others in the field, fund raising, and pet owner participation in these studies.
greenkouki is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to greenkouki For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-17-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016), Gretchen_Red (06-17-2016)
post #38 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 09:55 PM
Owned by Dobes since 1975
 
Darkevs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 30,675
Location: BC, Canada!
Dogs Name: Charlie & Naughty Dottie!
Titles: BDIH & BND
Dogs Age: 7 3/4 & 3
Gallery Pics: 46
Visit Darkevs's Gallery
Thanks: 86,447
Thanked 50,157 Times in 19,284 Posts
Images: 46
                     
Anyone ever read Leon Whitney's book How to breed dogs.

A very interesting book.

I would like to thank everyone who has responded in this thread.

A great read in itself.
Darkevs is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Darkevs For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (06-18-2016), Gretchen_Red (06-17-2016), kaloric (06-17-2016)
post #39 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 10:49 PM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,504
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,185
Thanked 5,494 Times in 2,187 Posts
Images: 14
                     
What I like most about this thread is that people are disagreeing but no ones saying "you're wrong", "you're stupid", or being disrespectful.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-18-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016)
post #40 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 11:06 PM
Super Moderator
 
greenkouki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,947
Location: SC

Gallery Pics: 77
Visit greenkouki's Gallery
Thanks: 19,811
Thanked 30,786 Times in 9,921 Posts
Images: 77
                     
Click here to find out how greenkouki became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
What I like most about this thread is that people are disagreeing but no ones saying "you're wrong", "you're stupid", or being disrespectful.
I don't know, I find this post pretty condescending and rude. Calling breeders elitist because they would leave the breed for what many consider a compelling reason. Take away something essential to breed type and to many, myself included, you just have any other large black dog breed but with a hell of a lot of health problems. That "final straw" is why many will leave the breed. This attitude only creates problems when we need to be coming together to discuss how to make our breed healthier. It can already be argued we have 2 or more "breeds" within the breed so why push people away more. Also there's only one "C" in "decades".

Quote:
Originally Posted by havenminx View Post
This was the first thing I thought of as well. We have a large amount of breeders--people who have lived with this breed for DECCADES--who have openly admitted they will leave the breed should cropping and docking become illegal. I cannot imagine these same breeders satying in the breed (or at least participating in this outcrossing project) should the studbooks be opened. Sad to say but I oredict this very much dividing the Doberman community, with an elitist attitude going along with "truly purebred" Dobermans.
greenkouki is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to greenkouki For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (06-18-2016)
post #41 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 11:09 PM
Alpha
 
kaloric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 850
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Kira & Korax
Dogs Age: Kira - 2011-08 :: Kor - 2014-01
Gallery Pics: 12
Visit kaloric's Gallery
Thanks: 2,071
Thanked 1,845 Times in 679 Posts
Images: 12
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by havenminx View Post
This was the first thing I thought of as well. We have a large amount of breeders--people who have lived with this breed for DECCADES--who have openly admitted they will leave the breed should cropping and docking become illegal. I cannot imagine these same breeders satying in the breed (or at least participating in this outcrossing project) should the studbooks be opened. Sad to say but I oredict this very much dividing the Doberman community, with an elitist attitude going along with "truly purebred" Dobermans.
The way I see it, the breed is just a brand. A member of the breed should possess enough consistency with the accepted branding (the standard) that it's identifiable without papers, or rejected if it's not correct regardless of whether its parentage paperwork appears to be in order.

Breeders and owners who feel threatened by that concept are of little value to the breed. They are welcome to make their own choices.

What I worry about losing are the endearing quirks and combination of other traits that generally make Dobermans perfect in every respect other than the health issues.

Last edited by kaloric; 06-17-2016 at 11:20 PM. Reason: Less disrespectful :P
kaloric is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to kaloric For This Useful Post:
alan j. (06-17-2016), Darkevs (06-18-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016), Gretchen_Red (06-22-2016), havenminx (06-18-2016), triciakoontz (06-19-2016)
post #42 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-18-2016, 01:10 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,523
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V ACT1 RATI WAC; Sypha: NW1 NW2 L1C L1V L1E RATI SOG WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 47,396
Thanked 58,197 Times in 15,834 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
If we can't even get a lot of breeders to create more diversity by avoiding "popular sire syndrome", how is this even a viable discussion? I don't feel educated enough scientifically or on breeding to have an opinion on this topic, but I despair at the lack of diversity in stud dog use already, and very few people seem to have a problem with that. Or, at least, you sure do see tons of litters sired by some really popular males.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT NW1 L1C L1V L1E L1I L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG WAC
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-18-2016), dax0402 (06-18-2016), eighmie (06-20-2016), Gretchen_Red (06-20-2016), Jazi (06-18-2016), kaloric (06-19-2016), Rosemary (06-18-2016), windamyr (06-18-2016)
post #43 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-18-2016, 05:53 PM
am the law
 
havenminx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Maine
Dogs Name: Apollo, Achilles, Eros, Prima
Titles: CGCA, CGC, ATD
Dogs Age: 7.5 (RIP); 3; 1; puppy
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit havenminx's Gallery
Thanks: 1,058
Thanked 2,341 Times in 723 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
Take away something essential to breed type and to many, myself included, you just have any other large black dog breed but with a hell of a lot of health problems.
Replace "something essential to breed type" with "erect ears and a stubby tail" (because that is ehat you mean). Do you see how ridiculous that sounds to so many Doberman lovers? To dog people in general? "Just another big, black dog?" I could not disagree with you more. The Doberman is so much more than its ears and tail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
Also there's only one "C" in "decades".
Yes. I know. I was an English major and actually am an impeccable speller but a blood clot in my brain has robbed me of much of my vision. I struggle to proofread my posts as I have large blind spots and letters disappear. I added a disclaimer to my signature so hopefully I won't have to explain this again, though you have been the first here to take issue with it.

havenminx is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to havenminx For This Useful Post:
alan j. (06-18-2016), Caleb Cox (06-18-2016)
post #44 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-19-2016, 07:38 PM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,504
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,185
Thanked 5,494 Times in 2,187 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
I don't know, I find this post pretty condescending and rude. Calling breeders elitist because they would leave the breed for what many consider a compelling reason. Take away something essential to breed type and to many, myself included, you just have any other large black dog breed but with a hell of a lot of health problems. That "final straw" is why many will leave the breed. This attitude only creates problems when we need to be coming together to discuss how to make our breed healthier. It can already be argued we have 2 or more "breeds" within the breed so why push people away more. Also there's only one "C" in "decades".
I'm confused were you saying my quote was rude and condescending? Not how I meant it at all. I think this is a VERY intense debate that I feel was been pretty well controlled emotionally.

If you are talking about Havenmix , I think they were just expressing how they felt. Which I'm fine with, thy didn't say anyone was wrong or dumb, just expressing an opinion. Sometimes opinions can offend people but that's when you have to look at their intent. I don't believe/hope that was the intent.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
post #45 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-19-2016, 09:19 PM
Always Grateful
 
triciakoontz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,947
Location: Durham, NC
Dogs Name: Mercury's Prince of the Universe (Boon)
Titles: CFFII,NW1, NW2, NWE1, CFFIII, CFFIV
Dogs Age: 12/29/12
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit triciakoontz's Gallery
Thanks: 9,005
Thanked 12,652 Times in 4,151 Posts
Images: 22
                     
We are losing our breed to an overwhelming mass of very serious illness pooling and concentrating, not just DCM. Add in Thyroid disease, OCD, and CSM (Wobblers) along with liver disease and vWd...it's heartbreaking. As much as I adore the breed, I don't know if I'll have the courage to get another.

THE BOONDOGGLE

Last edited by triciakoontz; 06-19-2016 at 09:24 PM.
triciakoontz is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to triciakoontz For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-19-2016), dax0402 (06-22-2016), kaloric (06-22-2016)
post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-19-2016, 09:47 PM
Alpha schmalpha
 
alan j.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,341
Location: Florida

Gallery Pics: 1
Visit alan j.'s Gallery
Thanks: 6,865
Thanked 8,815 Times in 2,701 Posts
Images: 1
                     
I get your feelings toward the breed. I lost my last two well bred dobes, one to liver and the other from DCM both made it to eight years and died suddenly. A male doberman really does not become perfect till after the age of six IMO.
I have already accepted that i will lose my current boy (3.5 yrs old) by the age of 8 any thing more will be a blessing and less would have me doing much soul searching about another dobe.
This breed is doomed just using mathematics , unless a new technology comes on the scene. The genetic weakness that is built into the dobe is such a issue and when you add many of the environmental dangers we all face in our daily lives , chemical and radiation exposure that are causing increased rates of cancer it seems no matter what is done the deck is stacked unfairly
alan j. is online now  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to alan j. For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (06-19-2016), Darkevs (06-19-2016), dax0402 (06-22-2016), kaloric (06-22-2016)
post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 10:14 AM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,504
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,185
Thanked 5,494 Times in 2,187 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
If we can't even get a lot of breeders to create more diversity by avoiding "popular sire syndrome", how is this even a viable discussion? I don't feel educated enough scientifically or on breeding to have an opinion on this topic, but I despair at the lack of diversity in stud dog use already, and very few people seem to have a problem with that. Or, at least, you sure do see tons of litters sired by some really popular males.
That's what I'm saying. I think before crossing breeds more breeders should just try crossing their lines and maybe looking at more dogs across the pond even! Sadly, I think it will take a lot. If more judges in the US started asking for more bone and more in Europe started asking for more balance it's possible. I do think the cropping and docking issues has become to hurt the breed as far as importing/exporting between the US and other countries.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-20-2016), dax0402 (06-22-2016)
post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 11:04 AM
Alpha
 
workingk9s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,870
Location: Nor Cal
Dogs Name: Ija, Dallas, Carson
Titles: Ija - UKC/UDC Ch., IPO1, WAC, CD
Dogs Age: Ija 10/2011
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit workingk9s's Gallery
Thanks: 5,975
Thanked 15,696 Times in 3,896 Posts
                     
I'm heading to the National this year to look at the males out there for another outcross. I feel like I am going to see a whoooooole lot of Blue sons though. Last couple years have been a display of beautiful Blue kids.


Erynn
workingk9s is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to workingk9s For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-20-2016), dax0402 (06-22-2016), Gretchen_Red (06-20-2016), Rosemary (06-20-2016)
post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 11:25 AM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,504
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,185
Thanked 5,494 Times in 2,187 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingk9s View Post
I'm heading to the National this year to look at the males out there for another outcross. I feel like I am going to see a whoooooole lot of Blue sons though. Last couple years have been a display of beautiful Blue kids.
I LUUUUUUUUUUUUUVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV my boy! Gets handsomerrrrrrr every day!

I will not be going to Camarillo as it falls the same weekend as a show in the mountains and we all kind of make a fun weekend out of it.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (06-22-2016), workingk9s (06-21-2016)
post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 09:20 AM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,504
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,185
Thanked 5,494 Times in 2,187 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChazTheDerperman View Post
Not necessarily. Many of the health problems found in purebreds are the result of recessive alleles. Inbreeding or "line breeding" increases the frequency of these recessive, damaging alleles by breeding together carriers of the alleles who are not affected by the genetic condition. So breeding to another breed that doesn't have that problem increases the healthy, dominant allele frequency within the population, reducing the incidence of the disease. So in the same way that another breed's genes could reduce DCM in the Doberman population, the Doberman genes (assuming the other breed doesn't have any of the same health problems) could potentially help introduce new healthy genes to the outcross breed as well.


Stats are probably being reported more often, which can skew the data these researchers have collected. If that's the case, then maybe we have more time than they predict, which would be awesome! However, the crash in population size following the boom in the 80's only hurts our chances by decreasing the gene pool. The smaller the gene pool, the more effect genetic drift has, and the more likely we are to see rising DCM rates.
So I looked into this with Vetgnostics and you are correct MOST are recessive! I concede! BUT many the most dangerous ones are dominant, which is weird.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-22-2016)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome