I don't know if we know enough to answer this question.....
But we do know that DCM seems to have multiple genes involved in its expression. It seems possible that there could be different versions of the disease with different courses according to which genes are present and interacting. Do some blood lines with DCM tend to live longer than others?
Some dogs with DCM live until 9 or 10, but others succumb to an early sudden death. Could these differing outcomes depend on which genes are present, with some bloodlines with DCM tending to greater longevity, some not?
Example, my last girl was diagnosed at 8 and lived symptom-free on meds until almost 10. Expensive, certainly, but she lived a good life until the last night when symptoms started showing up and we made the decision to put her to sleep. Kip has now been diagnosed with occult DCM--no symptoms, just abnormal test results--and he's almost ten.
But a lot of us have not been so lucky. Sudden death at age 4 or 5 is devastating.
At this point, perhaps our observations are only anecdotal, but is there enough information out there to hang a theory on? Those of you who follow blood-lines extensively--have you noticed any trends in the kind of DCM which shows up in different bloodlines?
I would request that we keep specific names and bloodlines out of this discussion. Seems like it might be too easy to derail the basic question if we get into arguing about this breeder vs that one.
It is a very interesting hypothesis. I think any responses you get will be based on anecdotal experience and like you indicated it may devolve into a discussion of specific dogs and lines.
What I would love to see would be some actual statistical analysis based on actual reliable data source - unfortunately I am not aware of a data source that is accurate enough to use in such an analysis. That would be the best way that any sort of correlation or trends may be able to be established.
If someone has the courage to comb through the dates of death and cause of death on various pedigree sites and database, that would be a place to start compiling data. The trickier part would be finding details such as occult or not, symptomatic or not etc.
A more academic way would be to survey DPCC, DPCA and FCI/IDC members, asking for the additional details and info.
Thank you Melbrod for opening this topic. As a newcomer to owning Dobermans, this is a subject I am very interested in. I've done some theorizing myself after doing a lot of reading of various scientific articles on the subject. I don't feel I 'know' enough to add much, but I SO look forward to information being shared, I don't need names, or lines. I think this can be a very productive discussion without getting personal!
My own personal feeling is it may not be so much two types, as much as it is degree of genetic load. Sort of like, if you have a couple of the markers, you may have a dog who lives to a ripe age with no problem. Add another one or two little defective codes and you get a dog who is affected, but can be maintained. Add just one more little defect, especially if it is coding for proteins, and you get sudden death when the dog reaches the limit of what the body can do without the ability to properly produce enough of any one thing needed for healthy cardiac tissue. Just me theorizing. And I could be way way way off base!
Something to bear in mind is that, while there's a genetic component that leads to an at-risk phenotype, there are also environmental risk factors as well that may influence the eventual cause of death. These include aerobic exercise (and the lack thereof), altitude, vitamin deficiencies, and probably some things nobody has thought of yet. Endocrine diseases and/or the drugs used to treat them could contribute to heart disease, even though those things are not "DCM", such problems do plague Dobermans and likely play some sort of role in exacerbating a heart condition.
Even with all the research money and efforts, it's a huge, complicated mess to get to the causes of the same disease in humans. Check this article out: Dilated and Restrictive Cardiomyopathies -- if it sounds like DCM is all over the place (ignore the other cardiomyopathies discussed), with many causes and risk factors, it's about right. About the only risk factors canines don't have are alcohol & narcotic abuse.
This is why it's important for breeders to gather and publish causes of death for their animals. Health testing isn't for a checklist, it's for the future. It's so that, if a dog gets ill and dies, folks can assemble data points and maybe come-up with a decent idea of what specific risk factors may be in play.
So, both of Sophie's parents tested negative for the one gene they test for DCM. If they are both negative, then she should be negative and not need further testing. At least that's what I remember from my college genetics class. Any of you think I should spend the $ on testing. I know it's just one piece of info and guarantees nothing.
If you mean that you do not need to test for the gene, I can't answer that. But if you are referring to general DCM testing as in echos and holtering, you still need to be vigilent because the dog can be negative and still develop DCM. Baron, among others, are examples. He was diagnosed at 4 1/2 with early stage and was immediately put on meds and he will be 9 in November and was just put on 2 more meds this past April.
My thought is, and I did ask his cardiologist this, since he is negative for the gene, has this helped him respond better to the meds?
Yep, I know. It just means she doesn't have that one gene. I have read extensively on DCM. I agree that holter and other testing should be done, but that can be no guarantee. I hope that someday veterinary science can come up with more clues to diagnose and help breed out this terrible disease.
We need to implement local non-profit co-ops to share the cost of equipment and Dvm's who really care (like mine) who would offer their time and/or space at a reduced price.
They are out there.... My vet, who happens to be my son's Father in Law, spends about a month a year doing pro-bono vet surgery in third world countries.
What's really odd is the lack of support for the Doberman breed in certain communities such as mine.
Interesting note here, I just read an article not long ago that hypothesized that there may be an autoimmune component to DCM in some breeds. Though it did go on to say that hypothyroidism did not seem to be related to DCM in Boxers. So much info out there, it's a shame we can't come up with definitive answers, or at least guidelines based on science! Even if we did have a 'hard' finding, breeders would need to be careful not to introduce other deleterious genes in their zeal to do away with DCM. Mini Schnauzers ran into this when trying to do away with juvenile cataracts, they did manage to do that, however they ended up with a couple of other problems that could be worse. Designer Genes – Genetic Management or Misery? | Best In Show Daily | 2015 if you'd like to read the article, it is written by a breeder
The best thing is to hook up with a doberman club or even other Doberman owners and purchase a Holter Moniter.
We and 3 other friends have 9 dobermans all together. We chipped in and purchased a Digital Holter and Vest from Alba Medical. It only costs $30 for the Tech to look over and send you the results. If it is abnormal they will let you know. Then if you want their Cardiologist to read it is $50 more.
Early detection is most important. This can help the dog to have a good quality of life with the use of Meds and a supplemental regiment.
We we visited NCSU Vet School with our boy Stryker. He was diagnosed (by Holter and Echo with no other symptoms) at 6yrs old, the beginning of this past July with DCM. He is on 4 Heart Meds, a regiment of supplements for his Heart, supplements to protect his Kidneys, Liver and acupuncture.
Cardiologists at NCSU said Dobes should start being tested at 2yrs with a Holter and Echo every year up to 5yrs. Then after 5yrs Holter every 6mo and Echo every year. There are also blood tests which can be given. They are a Troponin, Pro BNP and NT-proBNP tests. They test for certain enzymes and proteins which are produced in the heart and released when the heart is stretched and working hard to pump blood.
Both of our boys were DNA tested back in 2010 for the Gene. They both tested Positive for 1 Copy of the Normal Gene and 1 Copy of the Mutated Gene. These dogs should be monitered more closely.
I would not be without some type of pet insurance owning a Doberman.
Yes on the Thyroid. If a Holter comes back abnormal. The first thing is to do a Full Throid Panel. They Thyroid is very important in controling other Glands and Organs as the Heart.
Would also suggest in NOT getting anymore Vaccines.
Also putting the pet on the best foods such as a Raw or Dehydrated Raw (like Honest Kitchen) or the budget allows.
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