Early detection of DCM - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Doberman Health If it has to do with your dog and its health post here.

View Poll Results: Do you test for DCM
I do not test at all 11 33.33%
I holter and echo yearly 16 48.48%
I Cardiopet pro-BNP test 3 9.09%
tested for PDK4 9 27.27%
Other 3 9.09%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,533
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,213
Thanked 5,609 Times in 2,218 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Early detection of DCM

I've been reading articles about this and maybe I shouldn't be but I was wondering if anyone here has tested for PDK4. I'm not sure if I should do this. I'm afraid if I do, and it comes back that G. does have that Gene that I will FREAK OUT! I spoke to a breeder who said if I have no plans of breeding that I shouldn't worry about it and I'd like to have others input on this as well.

Also has anyone done the Cardiopet pro-BNP test? If so do you feel it is an accurate way to early detect DCM and at what age do you suggest I start testing for this?

PS. I do plan to holter and echo.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 11:33 AM
Alpha
 
bigfootlives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,996
Location: Alaska
Titles: AKC S.T.A.R. Puppy
Dogs Age: d.o.b 03/09/2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit bigfootlives's Gallery
Thanks: 6,766
Thanked 3,903 Times in 1,420 Posts
                     
I think we did had them test for it the last time we had a full blood panel done. It was a CARDIO pro-BNP and his levels came back within the normal range. This was done at 1 year old, and we will probably have it checked yearly in addition to the holter monitor.

I don't know much about the test other than it was recommended to me. It was only an extra $25 or so at my vet.

"stay hungry, stay foolish."
bigfootlives is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to bigfootlives For This Useful Post:
dobegal (07-22-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-22-2015)
post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 11:36 AM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
I echo/holter yearly and also do NTproBNP and UltraTroponin. Additionally, all of mine have had the PDK4 test.

The issue with the PDK4 test is that it has only isolated ONE gene. In humans, there are an estimated 20+ genes that cause DCM. Since we have seen well known dogs that were PDK4 negative drop dead of DCM we have to assume that there is more than one gene in Dobermans as well.

IMO-the PDK4 test should be done to support further research. I have not and likely will not use it as consideration for breeding simply because it's only focusing on the one gene. The more people that support this test for research, the greater chance that researchers have of isolating additional genes that could be more beneficial going forward.

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
AuraDobe (07-23-2015), Beaumont67 (09-12-2015), brw1982 (07-27-2015), Cressrb (07-22-2015), dax0402 (07-23-2015), dobebug (07-25-2015), dobegal (07-22-2015), Dobe_Mom (07-22-2015), falnfenix (07-22-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-22-2015), RedFawnRising (07-22-2015), Rosemary (07-22-2015), SilasPup (07-22-2015), TNfisher (07-30-2015)
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 11:40 AM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,533
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,213
Thanked 5,609 Times in 2,218 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
I echo/holter yearly and also do NTproBNP and UltraTroponin. Additionally, all of mine have had the PDK4 test.

The issue with the PDK4 test is that it has only isolated ONE gene. In humans, there are an estimated 20+ genes that cause DCM. Since we have seen well known dogs that were PDK4 negative drop dead of DCM we have to assume that there is more than one gene in Dobermans as well.

IMO-the PDK4 test should be done to support further research. I have not and likely will not use it as consideration for breeding simply because it's only focusing on the one gene. The more people that support this test for research, the greater chance that researchers have of isolating additional genes that could be more beneficial going forward.
Wow good info. and good points! Can you explain the UltraTropin test? Is it a blood test? What is it detecting? Is there a good article out there?
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Dobiewankanobi (07-22-2015)
post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 12:26 PM
Got mutt?
 
Rosemary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 13,150
Location: Southeast Texas
Dogs Name: Leo (GSD); Lily (APBT)
Titles: They do, and are working on more
Dogs Age: Leo 7; Lily 5; Ilka 2009-2017; Lucky 2000-2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rosemary's Gallery
Thanks: 39,153
Thanked 31,333 Times in 10,393 Posts
                     
Another issue with the PDK4 test is that BYB and the like do the test, and then advertise their dogs as "DCM negative" or "DCM clear", and never holter or echo their dogs.


~~The Current Hellhounds~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~Requiescat In Pace~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!”
Rosemary is offline  
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Rosemary For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (07-23-2015), Beaumont67 (09-12-2015), bigfootlives (07-22-2015), dobebug (07-25-2015), Dobiewankanobi (07-27-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-22-2015), kaloric (07-24-2015), RedFawnRising (07-22-2015), TNfisher (07-30-2015)
post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,533
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,213
Thanked 5,609 Times in 2,218 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Another issue with the PDK4 test is that BYB and the like do the test, and then advertise their dogs as "DCM negative" or "DCM clear", and never holter or echo their dogs.
You don't really think they should put money, time and care into their cash cows do you? I just read a thread, I think it was on DT even, where a BYB was forging vWD results!!! How friggin scandalous is that?!? Really you're forging a $65 test because that's too much money to put forth? It saddens me that they care so little not only for the dogs but to the people that they're selling their dogs to. I think the hardest thing about being a GOOD breeder would be to have even one unhealthy puppy. I know you can't prevent it and you do your best, but it must really sadden them to see the puppy unhealthy and to see the owners suffering. I know it would me, same reasons why I couldn't be a vet/tech or a teacher.., I'm much too sensitive. I'll stick with accounting.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 12:42 PM
Alpha
 
ShelianDobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,672
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Dogs Name: Wheeler, Spock, Fame
Titles: Wheeler - AKC GCH/UKC CH, RO3. Spock - AKC/UKC CH. Fame - AKC/UKC CH.
Dogs Age: Wheeler: 11/13/08 Spock: 07/10/13 Fame: 07/10/13
Gallery Pics: 17
Visit ShelianDobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,179
Thanked 13,529 Times in 3,434 Posts
Images: 17
                     
I Holter and Echo annually starting at 2 years of age, as well as do the NT-ProBNP. Wheeler has been tested for the PDK4 gene. As of yet, I have not tested the others for PDK4.


Shelly Wing
SHELIAN DOBERMANS
AKC GCH/UKC CH, RO3 Lyndobe's Wheel of Fortune, NTD "Wheeler"
AKC UKC CH Windsong's Fortune Hunter v Shelian, "Spock"
AKC UKC CH Windsong's Fame N Fortune v Shelian, "Fame"
AKC Ptd/UKC CH Shelian's Fifty Shades of Fame v Windsong, "Shade"
Shelian's A Thousand Words "Whisper"
Shelian's Words of Peace CGC BN RN "Olive"
www.sheliandobe.com
ShelianDobe is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ShelianDobe For This Useful Post:
bigfootlives (07-22-2015), dax0402 (07-23-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-22-2015)
post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 05:08 PM
Alpha
 
Dobe_Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,140
Location: New England
Dogs Name: Jossie, Jessie, Kayla, Mya, Prophet
Titles: GCH, CH, CGC, WAC, CA, CAA
Dogs Age: 9, 6, 3, 2, 18 months
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit Dobe_Mom's Gallery
Thanks: 6,073
Thanked 8,075 Times in 1,813 Posts
Images: 2
                     
We do holter and echo based on our cardio vet (Dr. Morris) reccomedation - see below:

Doberman Pinschers should have a baseline echocardiogram and 24 hour holter monitoring study between 1-2 years of age. From 2-4 years of age, annual echo and holter monitoring is suggested. From 4 years onward, in dogs used for breeding purposes, it is ideal to perform an echo and holter study every 6 months. Clinical research in Dobermans has shown that the24 hour holter test may provide the earliest indication in a Doberman with cardiomyopathy. This test maybe abnormal before the echocardiogram is abnormal in some dogs. More than 50 singular ventricular premature beats (VPC’s), or any couplets, triplets or runs of ventricular tachycardia found on a holter test, has been correlated with Dobermans that go on to experience sudden death or develop dilated cardiomyopathy and congestive heart failure later in life.

My cardio vet was one of the authors of the proBPN biomarker study, see link to publication below. In that study the proBPN assay was found to be useful in combination with holter monitoring:
http://www.massvetcardiology.com/Dat...dobes_2012.pdf

Holter monitoring is essential to early diagnosis of DCM and based on that we made the decision to purchase one for our Dobermans.


Last edited by Dobe_Mom; 07-22-2015 at 05:10 PM.
Dobe_Mom is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Dobe_Mom For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (07-23-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-22-2015), MeadowCat (07-23-2015), RedFawnRising (07-22-2015), Rosemary (07-22-2015)
post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 06:03 PM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
Here is an older article on UltraTroponin.

In very general terms, it detects cardiac necrosis within the test's reference range. This is suggestive of some kind of cardiac damage and signals further study via echo and holter.

Our cardiologist is hopeful that this may be an alternative for those who can't afford to undergo costly yearly echo/holter. It's a relatively inexpensive blood test. I do it to further promote research and because I think it's accurate enough to detect subtle changes that may not yet show itself on the echo/holter.

In the fight to understand DCM, its causes, why some get it and some don't, etc. I really believe it's important to utilize all the tools we have available. Maybe it won't happen in my lifetime, or even the next...but the more info and data we can gather on the disease from the breed population the better chance we have to understand how it mutates genetically, and more importantly, how to eliminate it.

Cardiac Troponin-I Concentration in Dogs with Cardiac Disease - Oyama - 2008 - Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC

Last edited by Dobiewankanobi; 07-22-2015 at 06:09 PM.
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
brw1982 (07-27-2015), dax0402 (07-23-2015), falnfenix (07-22-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-22-2015), MeadowCat (07-23-2015), RedFawnRising (07-22-2015)
post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 06:06 PM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
I also wanted to note that if someone had already had the PDK4 test run for their dog and it later came down with some form of cardio, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE contact Dr. Meurs' team at NCSU. They need this information to further their studies. If they aren't updated then they can't go back to look at your dog's info to see if there is something else genetically that could have caused the cardio.

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (09-12-2015), brw1982 (07-27-2015), churchill (07-23-2015), dax0402 (07-23-2015), Dictator (07-23-2015), falnfenix (07-22-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-22-2015), MeadowCat (07-23-2015), RedFawnRising (07-22-2015), ShelianDobe (07-23-2015), stryker2 (09-03-2015), TNfisher (07-30-2015)
post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 09:15 PM
Holier Than Now
 
RedFawnRising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 22,475
Dogs Name: Whisper; George; Mina, Nashua, Arcus
Titles: George-Working Service Dog
Dogs Age: 9 yr, 5 yr, 4 yr, 2 yr, 1.5 yr
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit RedFawnRising's Gallery
Thanks: 72,151
Thanked 77,342 Times in 18,231 Posts
Images: 3
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
I also wanted to note that if someone had already had the PDK4 test run for their dog and it later came down with some form of cardio, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE contact Dr. Meurs' team at NCSU. They need this information to further their studies. If they aren't updated then they can't go back to look at your dog's info to see if there is something else genetically that could have caused the cardio.
^^^Yes, this is vital to ongoing research, and bears repeating.




My heart has joined the thousand, for my friend stopped running today~Richard Adams


"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
―Cyril Connolly
RedFawnRising is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RedFawnRising For This Useful Post:
Dobiewankanobi (07-23-2015)
post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-23-2015, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,533
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,213
Thanked 5,609 Times in 2,218 Posts
Images: 14
                     
G. is about 14mo. old (the grow so quickly ) I am going to set up a Vet visit for some skin issues she's having, everyone says it's a bug bite or allergies but I just like confirmation. At 14mo. is it a good idea to do any of these blood tests or is she still a bit too young?
Gretchen_Red is offline  
post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-23-2015, 11:55 AM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
G. is about 14mo. old (the grow so quickly ) I am going to set up a Vet visit for some skin issues she's having, everyone says it's a bug bite or allergies but I just like confirmation. At 14mo. is it a good idea to do any of these blood tests or is she still a bit too young?
Diagnostically she's too young for the cardiac testing. Our cardiologist recommends a baseline at 24 months. Her baseline is defined as echo, holter, NTproBNP, and UltraTroponin.

Since we echo/holter yearly this has been helpful to have. Especially with my rescue male whose heart has always measured slightly larger than average. Our cardiologist compares his previous year's measurements and says that it's his normal. Just one of many examples of why you should always bring past test data to a current appointment and how helpful it can be to have baseline and yearly records to compare to.

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
brw1982 (07-27-2015), dax0402 (07-23-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-23-2015), MeadowCat (07-23-2015), Rosemary (07-23-2015), TNfisher (07-30-2015)
post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-23-2015, 03:41 PM
Holier Than Now
 
RedFawnRising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 22,475
Dogs Name: Whisper; George; Mina, Nashua, Arcus
Titles: George-Working Service Dog
Dogs Age: 9 yr, 5 yr, 4 yr, 2 yr, 1.5 yr
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit RedFawnRising's Gallery
Thanks: 72,151
Thanked 77,342 Times in 18,231 Posts
Images: 3
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
Diagnostically she's too young for the cardiac testing. Our cardiologist recommends a baseline at 24 months. Her baseline is defined as echo, holter, NTproBNP, and UltraTroponin.

Since we echo/holter yearly this has been helpful to have. Especially with my rescue male whose heart has always measured slightly larger than average. Our cardiologist compares his previous year's measurements and says that it's his normal. Just one of many examples of why you should always bring past test data to a current appointment and how helpful it can be to have baseline and yearly records to compare to.
I used to follow the 2-3 year age guideline, as well, Dobiewan, but after losing Ezra to CHF at only age three, and seeing Zolee'smom losing her girl to DCM/CHF at a mere nineteen months, and then that six month old puppy that doberkim was seeing, with DCM, I fear that age 2 may be too late for some to begin.

Totally agree about bringing past test results for comparison.

My rescue boy George also has a larger-than-usual heart, but it appears to be stable and "normal" for him.




My heart has joined the thousand, for my friend stopped running today~Richard Adams


"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
―Cyril Connolly
RedFawnRising is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to RedFawnRising For This Useful Post:
churchill (07-23-2015), Dobiewankanobi (07-23-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-23-2015), Rosemary (07-23-2015)
post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-23-2015, 04:00 PM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
I used to follow the 2-3 year age guideline, as well, Dobiewan, but after losing Ezra to CHF at only age three, and seeing Zolee'smom losing her girl to DCM/CHF at a mere nineteen months, and then that six month old puppy that doberkim was seeing, with DCM, I fear that age 2 may be too late for some to begin.

Totally agree about bringing past test results for comparison.

My rescue boy George also has a larger-than-usual heart, but it appears to be stable and "normal" for him.
Well, technically, since I'm one of those people, I start at a year. Simply because all of my dogs go for their yearly at the same time and I'm fortunate enough to own my own holter monitor. However, my cardiologist has given the heads up that for diagnostic purposes the 2 year old echo is the one she prefers to use as it should be a mature heart at that time.

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (09-03-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-23-2015), MeadowCat (07-30-2015), RedFawnRising (07-25-2015), Rosemary (07-23-2015), ShelianDobe (07-23-2015)
post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-23-2015, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,533
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,213
Thanked 5,609 Times in 2,218 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Should I have to the 2 blood test drawn? Are they fairly inexpensive? Will my vet know where to send them? My club has a holter I can rent for cheap.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-23-2015, 04:15 PM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
Should I have to the 2 blood test drawn? Are they fairly inexpensive? Will my vet know where to send them? My club has a holter I can rent for cheap.
Cardiopet ProBNP is the name of the NTproBNP and is done by idexx. The ultratroponin has to be sent to Texas A&M the last time I checked.

ETA: Idexx charges $46.50 for the stand alone test. I usually do it at the same time that we do our annual CBC/Liver/Kidney panel and then it's an add on for $17.89. Of course, your vet is free to mark up after that if they want but mine doesn't.

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC

Last edited by Dobiewankanobi; 07-23-2015 at 04:17 PM.
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (08-07-2015), dobebug (07-25-2015), MeadowCat (07-30-2015)
post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-24-2015, 04:46 PM
Alpha
 
kaloric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 850
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Kira & Korax
Dogs Age: Kira - 2011-08 :: Kor - 2014-01
Gallery Pics: 12
Visit kaloric's Gallery
Thanks: 2,071
Thanked 1,846 Times in 679 Posts
Images: 12
                     
Something to bear in mind is that PDK4 is not even a "DCM gene." It's just a completely unrelated mutation which has been noticed to occur in a statistically-significant number of American-bloodline Dobermans which develop DCM. There's not even an identified correlation between the PDK4 mutation and a statistically-significant elevated incidence of DCM in the European Doberman cohort.

All this test means is that there was likely one popular bloodline responsible for both the mutation and ONE hereditary factor (of many) that cause DCM, and it's fairly widespread.

There is no absolute, "If your dog tests positive, it will develop this type of DCM" conclusion which may be reached, nor should anyone conclude that there's any such result as "clear of DCM".

The only context in which this test should be used is to help broaden the sample set and understanding of one potential cause. At worst, it creates unnecessary anxiety with a positive result, and bad breeders tend to use negative results to instill an utterly false sense of confidence in gullible buyers who don't understand the science.

I can't say I'm sold on the predictive value of the Holter unless there's already cause for concern. The value of Holter Monitoring in humans is pretty well-researched, and there's been a pretty common theme outlined:

--Imaging techniques (echocardiograms) are best, hands-down, for identifying the physical changes to the heart that are cause for concern.
--Holter Monitoring (ambulatory ECG) is great, in conjunction with imaging diagnostics, to understand more about what's going on and how a heart condition is progressing, WHEN such a condition has been identified.
--HM is not particularly useful as a positive predictive diagnostic tool that sudden cardiac death is imminent, but it may be useful as a NEGATIVE predictive diagnostic tool to identify patients at low risk of sudden cardiac death (again, in conjunction with other diagnostics).

Also, SCD is not a huge concern of mine. It kills some Dobes, sure, but that's a relatively small problem compared to congestive heart failure that comes on slowly as a result of DCM.

The bottom line is that the purpose, scope, and implications of tests need to be understood and leveraged appropriately. They should not be done in ignorance, just to feel good about having done them or to satisfy a checklist.

My testing plan is to continue as I have been-- regular screenings where the vet just listens for abnormalities. Periodic echocardiograms to have a specialist see if there's something to be concerned about. As far as Holter, I'd certainly do that if there was a cause for concern from an Echo, to better understand the problem. If no concerns are presenting, I wouldn't bother, because the best result is simply inconclusive as far as DCM. The worst, which is the typical result, is inconclusive on both DCM and SCD risks.
kaloric is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to kaloric For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (07-24-2015), Darkevs (07-30-2015), Dobe_Mom (07-26-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-24-2015)
post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-24-2015, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,533
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,213
Thanked 5,609 Times in 2,218 Posts
Images: 14
                     
This was actually posted on another forum a few months ago and it's what has had me thinking and reading articles. Additionally, I have seen some breeders testing for PDK4 as well.

A predictive model for canine dilated cardiomyopathy?a meta-analysis of Doberman Pinscher data
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (07-30-2015), kaloric (07-24-2015), stryker2 (09-03-2015)
post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-24-2015, 08:04 PM
Alpha
 
kaloric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 850
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Kira & Korax
Dogs Age: Kira - 2011-08 :: Kor - 2014-01
Gallery Pics: 12
Visit kaloric's Gallery
Thanks: 2,071
Thanked 1,846 Times in 679 Posts
Images: 12
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
This was actually posted on another forum a few months ago and it's what has had me thinking and reading articles. Additionally, I have seen some breeders testing for PDK4 as well.

A predictive model for canine dilated cardiomyopathy?a meta-analysis of Doberman Pinscher data
That's an interesting paper, and the statement in the conclusion that, once a potential genetic predisposition has been identified, that an individual should be more closely monitored for warning signs of heart disease, is an appropriate way to handle test result.

The primary reason I think breeders should assist with genetic studies is that they're better suited to track these things in their dogs, in a way that may be highly reliable at associating a genetic disorder with a particular bloodline. It's in their own best interests, as well as those of their customers, to do their part in increasing the sample sizes so that there's a chance of more accurate genetic diagnostics being developed, which absolutely have the potential to put the brakes on a damaging genetic disease.

These tests often start out as best guesses for relatively uncommon mutations which can be identified consistently and associated with a particular disorder, even if they're not actually mutations that directly cause the disorder. Looking at many genotypes for a particular correlated mutation may actually lead to identifying a cause or at least improve the potential for other diagnostic discoveries.

In other words, it's not about the individual dogs being tested, at that level, the test isn't too useful and it's nothing to brag or worry about. It's really about what testing many individuals, then following them throughout their lives, and what that tells researchers about trends in the breed as a whole.
kaloric is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to kaloric For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (07-30-2015), Dobiewankanobi (07-27-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-25-2015)
post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-25-2015, 12:31 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,099

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 12,501
Thanked 24,300 Times in 6,277 Posts
                     
I test for almost everything that has a reliable test. I do this specifically because I understand the value of cumulative information in the case of genetic tests and the fact that tests like echos and Holters are most informative as a record over time.

I test for PDK4, early, because it's a genetic test which only needs to be done once. Even thought it's not predictive it is one more bit of information. I've been testing my dogs since the test was first available--they have all been negative.

I now have the ProBNP run whenever I do a complete senior panel (once a year at least from a year on)--as an add-on it's cheap. All of those have been negative.

I start doing yearly echocardiograms and Holters between two and three. At around five/six or if there is any indication that there may be a developing problem I start doing an echo and Holter every six months. The dogs cardiologist recommends starting echos no earlier than 2 because the heart is typically not mature earlier than tat and often will produce wacky results.

Cardio testing by echo and Holter is most informative if you have results over time.

It's entirely probable that classic DCM/CHF and sudden cardiac arrest are two phenomenon which may or may not be related. I lost my last dog to sudden death a couple of weeks shy of10 years. We (his cardiologist and I) knew, because of his bi yearly Holters that he was having issues with electrical functions of the heart and they were increasing. So the sudden death was not exactly unexpected. The ultrasounds were still pretty normal--and he was in grey area when it comes to deciding if he was actually in occult DCM or not.
dobebug is offline  
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (07-25-2015), brw1982 (07-30-2015), dax0402 (07-26-2015), Dobe_Mom (07-25-2015), Dobiewankanobi (07-27-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-25-2015), MeadowCat (07-30-2015), Q734 (07-31-2015), RedFawnRising (07-26-2015), Rosemary (07-27-2015), TNfisher (07-30-2015)
post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-27-2015, 11:55 AM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaloric View Post
--Imaging techniques (echocardiograms) are best, hands-down, for identifying the physical changes to the heart that are cause for concern.
--Holter Monitoring (ambulatory ECG) is great, in conjunction with imaging diagnostics, to understand more about what's going on and how a heart condition is progressing, WHEN such a condition has been identified.

As far as Holter, I'd certainly do that if there was a cause for concern from an Echo, to better understand the problem. If no concerns are presenting, I wouldn't bother, because the best result is simply inconclusive as far as DCM. The worst, which is the typical result, is inconclusive on both DCM and SCD risks.
I'm going to slightly, and very respectfully, disagree with your opinion. And that's based solely on previous experience with another dog. While I agree 100% that echo's are the best tool-- it's only a short 2-3 minute view. My previous male had normal echos (at first). However, he was throwing arrhythmias on the holter. Unfortunately, because of the short 2-3 minute view of the echo it was never picked up on that particular echo. If we hadn't done the holter we wouldn't have had a clue since he was exhibiting no physical signs at that time.

I think the combination of both gives us a more accurate picture. Some dogs exhibit normal echo's while throwing vpcs the entire time. Some show dilation or regurgitation or valve insufficienies on echo but have normal holters. And for me, that's the crappiest part of this disease. It can present entirely different in any dog.

This is where I really the see the value in NTproBNP and Ultratroponin. It's another key to the puzzle in that the reference range can indicate that a dog with a value over that range is exhibiting some type of damage to the heart and can clue you in that further diagnostic study is needed. Suppose the echo and holter came back normal but the NTProBNP/Ultratroponin shows a high value. In theory, we would wait another year to echo/holter on a dog that presented normal, but with higher NTProBNP/Ultratroponin values that may be a dog that I would retest again in 6 months or so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
I test for almost everything that has a reliable test. I do this specifically because I understand the value of cumulative information in the case of genetic tests and the fact that tests like echos and Holters are most informative as a record over time.
Agree 1000%, Bug. Cumulative. That's the key word. The value of these tests is being able to track that data from year to year.

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
brw1982 (07-30-2015), dax0402 (09-03-2015), dobebug (08-02-2015), eegreen (07-27-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-27-2015), kaloric (07-28-2015), Q734 (07-31-2015), Rosemary (07-30-2015), stryker2 (09-03-2015), TNfisher (07-30-2015)
post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-30-2015, 09:17 AM
joie de vivre
 
brw1982's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 11,059
Location: Missouri
Dogs Name: Cypress (Dobe) & Dempsey (Rat Terrier)
Dogs Age: 05.08.19 & 11.04.14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit brw1982's Gallery
Thanks: 50,773
Thanked 31,466 Times in 8,769 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
I'm going to slightly, and very respectfully, disagree with your opinion. And that's based solely on previous experience with another dog. While I agree 100% that echo's are the best tool-- it's only a short 2-3 minute view. My previous male had normal echos (at first). However, he was throwing arrhythmias on the holter. Unfortunately, because of the short 2-3 minute view of the echo it was never picked up on that particular echo. If we hadn't done the holter we wouldn't have had a clue since he was exhibiting no physical signs at that time.

I think the combination of both gives us a more accurate picture. Some dogs exhibit normal echo's while throwing vpcs the entire time. Some show dilation or regurgitation or valve insufficienies on echo but have normal holters. And for me, that's the crappiest part of this disease. It can present entirely different in any dog.

I couldn't agree more with this. Tali had a heart attack last October, we did 2 holters immediately and she was having arrhythmias all day and night; including pauses, singles, and supras. Followed that with an echo - nothing showed up. She's on Sotalol now to manage the arrythmias. If I'd have relied solely on an echo, we'd have been sent home without diagnosis. Fortunately I had the holters for the cardiologist's review, too.



Old Drum's Crimson Crisp CGC, "Fiona" 04-21-2009 - 01-15-2018
Old Drum's Fiery Rumors of Taliesin CGC, "Tali" 05-09-2008 - 08-19-2018
brw1982 is offline  
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to brw1982 For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (08-07-2015), dobebug (08-02-2015), Dobiewankanobi (08-03-2015), eegreen (07-30-2015), Gretchen_Red (07-30-2015), MeadowCat (07-30-2015), Q734 (07-31-2015), Rosemary (07-30-2015), stryker2 (09-03-2015)
post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-07-2015, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,533
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Maverick and Kya
Titles: GCH, BH, Dock Diving, Agility, Rally, and of course Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 4 years and 20mo
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 7,213
Thanked 5,609 Times in 2,218 Posts
Images: 14
                     
I just ordered the PDK4 test from Vetgen. Does anyone know if the results of this test can change to a preexisting condition with Insurance? I was going to wait until G. was about 18mo. or so before getting pet insurance and now I'm wondering if I should go ahead and get it. Can the test results allow the ins. companies to now say she had a preexisting condition if she does test positive?
Gretchen_Red is offline  
post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-07-2015, 03:29 PM
Sirai Dobermans
 
Dobiewankanobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,100
Location: Katy, Tx
Dogs Name: Koa, Siri, Hottie & Chloe (shep x)
Titles: Koa-STAR Puppy, RN, CAA, CGC, Chloe-CA,CGC, Siri-AKC Grand Champion, CAX, DockDogs BAJJ, CGC
Dogs Age: 3 years, 2 years, 6months, 4 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobiewankanobi's Gallery
Thanks: 3,525
Thanked 5,798 Times in 1,534 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I just ordered the PDK4 test from Vetgen. Does anyone know if the results of this test can change to a preexisting condition with Insurance? I was going to wait until G. was about 18mo. or so before getting pet insurance and now I'm wondering if I should go ahead and get it. Can the test results allow the ins. companies to now say she had a preexisting condition if she does test positive?
I'm not 100% sure. You might call the insurance provider and ask. I do know that my insurance states that they can review my veterinary file at any time. SO, if it's not in any veterinary history I would think that they might not know.

I would call and ask. I like to keep things on the "up and up" when it comes to insurance.

RIP Kai 3/19/2001 - 11/8/2011
Koa RN, CAX, CGC
Siri-GCH Sunny N Foxfire's Starstruck CAX CGC
Chloe-CA, CGC
Hottie-CH Foxfire's I'm Smokin' Hot CA
Aero-GCH Sirai's Brace For Impact CA DJ CGC WAC
Bluebie-Sirai's Clear Skies Ahead CA WAC
Cessna-CH Sirai's Cleared For Takeoff CA WAC
Luxe-BPIS Sirai's Hollywood Glamour CA WAC
Mavi-CH Sirai's Hollywood Hot Shot WAC
Dobiewankanobi is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dobiewankanobi For This Useful Post:
Gretchen_Red (08-07-2015), MeadowCat (08-07-2015)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome