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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-24-2015, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
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Elevated Liver ALT and cholesterol levels

We took Mocha back to the internal specialist today for a follow-up, because last time, Mocha had several liver levels which were high, as well as having high cholesterol so she wanted to do a re-check. Here's the discharge paperwork:





The doc thinks that the elevated liver levels *could be* from bacteria in her GI tract from the diarrhea/loose stools before. She gave us a 30-day supply of Denamarin (which isn't cheap) and wants us to have blood work done again in 30 days to see if the ALT is down to normal.

I've gone over Mocha's family history before and won't bring that up again, but what else could be the cause of both the elevated liver levels and the high cholesterol? Especially since she's had nothing to eat except the Rx food? I'd hate to think that at her young age, we' may be on our way to liver problems.

Except for those elevated levels, she has been doing great since she started the Rx food. Steady, slow weight gain, hair loss stopped, dandruff is just about non-existent, coat is shiny and healthy looking, and she only poops twice a day.



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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 10:01 AM
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I can't speak to the cause of liver issues, other than to say that they are, unfortunately, not uncommon in Dobermans. I don't know if you got the Denamarin from your vet, but I know that you can find it cheaper elsewhere. Costco, for example, carries it.

I hope that this is only a temporary issue for Mocha

There are lots of people here with experience with liver issues. Hopefully they'll pop in with some info.


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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I can't speak to the cause of liver issues, other than to say that they are, unfortunately, not uncommon in Dobermans. I don't know if you got the Denamarin from your vet, but I know that you can find it cheaper elsewhere. Costco, for example, carries it.

I hope that this is only a temporary issue for Mocha

There are lots of people here with experience with liver issues. Hopefully they'll pop in with some info.
It's like we can't win. Every time we take one step forward, something else pops up. It's certainly been an interesting first year, that's for sure. Onward



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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 10:35 AM
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I'm at work right now, but I will try to come back later or pm you with my experience with what is now 3 Dobermans with liver issues.

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 10:52 AM
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I have no advice but I just wanted to express my deepest sympathy for you and your baby girl. It's not easy when you're dog has health issues and you don't have answers and you can't make it better. I wish the best for you guys and Mocha's lucky to have such an amazing owner.
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 11:17 AM
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Sigh. I had hoped this was a good post!

Well it mostly is. Seems like you may have beaten the diarrhea! So that's good news. Food intolerance is such a tough thing to get a handle on.

Here's a decent link on elevated ALT levels. I think your doc is just being proactive. A few tests have shown elevated levels and IF she acquires CAH it's best to catch it early.
Chronic Active Hepatitis (CAH) : Doberman Disease & Health Concerns : Issues facing Dobermans : DobermanData.com : Pedigree Research for Doberman Pinchers

And, of course, it might be wise to consult your breeder to ask if CAH is common in their line. You wouldn't happen to have the CBC/SuperChem results from her sire/dam would you?

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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
And, of course, it might be wise to consult your breeder to ask if CAH is common in their line. You wouldn't happen to have the CBC/SuperChem results from her sire/dam would you?
Without going into details at this time, I won't be asking my breeder for anything, again.



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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 01:58 PM
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It's like we can't win. Every time we take one step forward, something else pops up. It's certainly been an interesting first year, that's for sure. Onward
Sigh.

All I can say is, I feel Mocha is really blessed to be in the hands of such committed family members.

You guys have--and continue to--go above and beyond.



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Without going into details at this time, I won't be asking my breeder for anything, again.
This is so not how it should be.

I feel very discouraged, when we urge and cajole folks new to Dobermans to please be ethical and either buy from A Good Breeder, or else support Doberman rescue...and then folks like you TRY to do the right thing, and end up, well...where you've ended up.

I know this is NOT the only breeder who has negative puppy experiences associated with them, and for whom at least some buyers feel a lack of support.

But every instance such as this makes me feel disappointed, deeply disappointed, for our breed.




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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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Sigh.

All I can say is, I feel Mocha is really blessed to be in the hands of such committed family members.

You guys have--and continue to--go above and beyond.





This is so not how it should be.

I feel very discouraged, when we urge and cajole folks new to Dobermans to please be ethical and either buy from A Good Breeder, or else support Doberman rescue...and then folks like you TRY to do the right thing, and end up, well...where you've ended up.

I know this is NOT the only breeder who has negative puppy experiences associated with them, and for whom at least some buyers feel a lack of support.

But every instance such as this makes me feel disappointed, deeply disappointed, for our breed.
Again, without going into details, most of it is on me.

I wasn't diligent enough.
I didn't do enough research.
I didn't ask the right questions and when I did, I accepted answers that bypassed, glossed over, or avoided the issues.
I chose to ignore several red flags.

Bottom line is; I'm not here to bash anyone. If we hadn't bought Mocha, someone else would have, perhaps someone who wouldn't have had the means, patience or fortitude to give her the care and love we have (and she deserves) and we're lucky to have her. As I've said (what feels like a thousand times), we just want what's best for our girl and want her around for at least 10 years.



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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 03:08 PM
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Ugh I'm sorry to hear this. Hopefully this is a temporary set up and not another lifelong issue. Dealing with this particular breeder is difficult to say the least. I recently was approached by a potential puppy buyer who had heard about Khaos's health issues and asked me about it and my experiences with her. Well, instead of sugar coating it, I did tell her the truth about the depth of his health issues and advised her to make sure to get any supposed health testing on the parents in writing before she takes a puppy home. Next thing I know, she posted my name publicly on her FB spouting half truths and outright lies about me and put me on Do No Sell lists. Since she has me blocked I couldn't even defend myself. And anybody that tried to speak up in my defense was also immediately blocked.

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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 03:08 PM
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I don't know anything about the issue - but I wish you and Mocha the best in navigating yet another mystery. She is such a special girl, and you amaze me with the compassion and care you provide

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor_Red View Post
Ugh I'm sorry to hear this. Hopefully this is a temporary set up and not another lifelong issue. Dealing with this particular breeder is difficult to say the least. I recently was approached by a potential puppy buyer who had heard about Khaos's health issues and asked me about it and my experiences with her. Well, instead of sugar coating it, I did tell her the truth about the depth of his health issues and advised her to make sure to get any supposed health testing on the parents in writing before she takes a puppy home. Next thing I know, she posted my name publicly on her FB spouting half truths and outright lies about me and put me on Do No Sell lists. Since she has me blocked I couldn't even defend myself. And anybody that tried to speak up in my defense was also immediately blocked.
Wait, I'm confused (happens easily, I know).

The person who asked you for feedback about Khaos put you on a FB page and a Do Not Sell list?

Or Khaos' breeder did this?

If the former, that's a shame, and if the latter, that is beyond despicable and says far more about her than about any puppy buyer.

If one is not allowed to speak one's truth, then what kind of world are we building?

I have heard, many times over the years, of folks too afraid to speak out about their breeders--not speaking to any one situation, just in general--because they someday want another Doberman puppy, and fear reprisals and being "blacklisted."

It's such a heavy and terrible responsibility, being able to post to DNS list and DNA list...those who do so ought to really weigh that decision carefully and with the utmost transparency.




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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Wait, I'm confused (happens easily, I know).

The person who asked you for feedback about Khaos put you on a FB page and a Do Not Sell list?

Or Khaos' breeder did this?

If the former, that's a shame, and if the latter, that is beyond despicable and says far more about her than about any puppy buyer.

If one is not allowed to speak one's truth, then what kind of world are we building?

I have heard, many times over the years, of folks too afraid to speak out about their breeders--not speaking to any one situation, just in general--because they someday want another Doberman puppy, and fear reprisals and being "blacklisted."

It's such a heavy and terrible responsibility, being able to post to DNS list and DNA list...those who do so ought to really weigh that decision carefully and with the utmost transparency.
I will say this:

I was in contact with 3 breeders, one wasn't going to have pups for quite the while, then there was Pamelot out of Georgia who sounded and looked very promising but also wasn't going to breed till (I think) late last year or this year, and my breeder who also said she wasn't going to have another litter for a while...so we were willing to wait.

Then suddenly I got contacted by my breeder out of the blue, telling me she had a litter "she had kept under wraps" and oh boy, red flags were flying all around, even hitting me on the head but I had waited so many years and wanted a Doberman so bad...

I was told there was one red girl, just like I wanted, but the dam's owner was going to evaluate her for show so I only had a 50/50 chance to get this girl. Then, I was told that the pup was available because the dam's owner couldn't take on a puppy at this time (came to find later out she took one of the other pups; because let's be honest, with Mocha's long, narrow muzzle, her too short tail and mismatched chest markings, she never had a snowball's chance in hell to be a show dog - but, she's perfect to me ).

I put a non-refundable deposit down and only after I did that, did I by accident come across the post by Ruby Slippers(?), the lady from Canada that my breeder had a beef with and in that post, is where I found out that the pups weren't nursed by their own dam but by another female. Another huge red flag, because this is something any good breeder should/would have told their prospective puppy buyers, IMO, not kept from them. Especially when one is buying said pups for $2,500.

And when I finally got to talk with the dam's owner not too long ago, she let it slip that the dam was never going to be bred again, with all these issues...then she realized what she said and quickly changed the subject.

So, lesson learned. The hard way, but learned.



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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 05:40 PM
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Sorry RFR, I should have been more specific. Khaos's breeder is the one that put me on the DNS list.

I did defend myself on my own FB page and unlike her, I never said anything I can't back up with proof, so I let her own words speak for themselves, since she does most of her communication either through email, txt or fb chats.

While I would never buy another puppy from her, I do want to buy another puppy in the future and I only hope that any breeder I approach will give me the benefit of the doubt.

Khaos is now 2 1/2 and I have spent over $8000 in non routine vetcare. I understand that even if you do everything right in breeding, it's no guarantee of health, however she lied to me about the health testing done on the parents. They were either not done at all or had a different results then she claimed. But I have part ownership in it, since I did take him home before I had proof from her that the claims were true.

I have never asked her for any kind of financial compensation, only for breeder support and I resent her continued belittling, blaming me and my "incompetent" vet for his issue as well as saying some pretty awful things about me and Khaos behind my back. All I want is for Khaos to be as healthy as he can be and to that end, he has been seen by specialists as well as me getting second and third opinions from other vets. And I hate that TN Fisher is dealing with some of the same and some very similar issues with his pup out of the same dam. I have also seen yet another puppy out of that dam that is also showing the start of hair loss.

She (Khaos's breeder) goes after everyone that dares to speak the truth, she went so far as to block another breeder on FB who only asked what health testing was done on one of her current litters. I did noticed that when her name comes up on this forum, a lot of people that are often outspoken about other BYB breeders, go very very quiet when her name comes up.

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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 06:16 PM
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Wow you guys just can't get a break can you! Thanks again for being such a committed owner and doing always what is best for Mocha.

I find it ironic that Mocha and Khaos have very similar issues while the pups share the same dam. I am obviously not an expert on breeders as I didn't even know enough to research before buying from a byb but this certainly does not seem coincidental or a one - off to me.

It really is unfortunate but I commend both of you for doing all you can for your pups. Many owners would have given up due to frustration or lack of finances by now.



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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
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...She (Khaos's breeder) goes after everyone that dares to speak the truth, she went so far as to block another breeder on FB who only asked what health testing was done on one of her current litters. I did noticed that when her name comes up on this forum, a lot of people that are often outspoken about other BYB breeders, go very very quiet when her name comes up.
I'll have to go back and look, see if I can find the thread.

I recall asking here on DT once, about health testing on a *very* young sire of hers.

She said she would look it up, don't recall ever seeing the answer, but I absolutely could've missed it--I kind of randomly hit-and-miss various threads here.

I sincerely hope those who are breeding a breed such as ours, with SO MANY hideous health issues, including all this autoimmune stuff, do not feel they have a "pass" on answering honest inquiries about health screenings.

I also asked about one of her dogs being listed in her signature as a "Certified Service Dog," since there is actually no legal certification process in place in this country.

I don't recall seeing an answer on that, either--and I'm sorry, I've realized I'm rambling off-topic now, so I'll shut up.

To sum up:

No puppy buyer is ever perfect.

No breeder is ever perfect.

No breeding is ever perfect.

True mettle and true character come out when there are problems to be faced.

The fact that the two of you have owned your individual parts in this, and that you continue to seek answers in spite of a very combative atmosphere, in the pursuit of the best diagnosis and health care possible for your Dobermans...well, that strikes me as classy.

Just sayin'.




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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 06:38 PM
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TNfisher, you have a PM!

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 06:52 PM
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Hoping Mocha is OK and it's nothing serious.

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 06:57 PM
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Thank you RFR. My dogs are my family and I will do anything to keep them happy and as healthy as I can.

As for her answering questions, no I don't think you missed it, last time I checked she hadn't answered any of them. Just like she didn't answer when someone asked why she didn't do an OFA on Stunner since she just bred him. It seems to be her MO. When questions are asked on an open forum she can't or doesn't want to answer, she will either block you if she can, or just not answer at all. If they are asked privately she will lie.

One of the things that bothers me the most, is that even knowing the depth of Khaos's health issues, she bred his dam again without proper health testing and TN Fisher and others are now dealing with the consequences of that breeding.

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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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TNfisher, you have a PM!
Got it, thanks



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One of the things that bothers me the most, is that even knowing the depth of Khaos's health issues, she bred his dam again without proper health testing and TN Fisher and others are now dealing with the consequences of that breeding.
But, life goes on and despite her health issues, I wouldn't trade Mocha for any dog in the world.

On a good note, a great note, actually, a note I can't begin to describe, during our session with our trainer, my dog and people-reactive girl walked for an hour today, with only a few minor hiccups. After about 15 minutes, this girl of mine, who usually goes over threshold whenever she sees someone walking, or another dog, was walking by people who were laughing, talking, making noise, and moving around, with nothing more than an alert look to see what they were up to. No hair standing up on her back, no growling or barking, no lunging. And 95% of the time, it was at a nice, loose-leash heel position

That, my friends, is what a good trainer can do.



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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2015, 09:41 PM
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I've been keeping up with your threads about Mocha. While I can't speak to her health issues I'm glad you're getting most of them figured out. Hopefully the liver values are just a blip and can be handled with this medication.

As someone mentioned, shop around for her medication if she needs to be on it long term. Someone mentioned Costco, they are great for meds and I know in KY you don't have to be a member to shop at their pharmacy.

Also, check out your local pharmacy or grocery stores. I get Tess's meds at Kroger. A the vets a month supply costs me $50 but it's about $19 at Kroger.

And it's great to hear the update about her training. Go Mocha! She'll be a superstar before long.
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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-26-2015, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Also, check out your local pharmacy or grocery stores. I get Tess's meds at Kroger. A the vets a month supply costs me $50 but it's about $19 at Kroger.

And it's great to hear the update about her training. Go Mocha! She'll be a superstar before long.
Ack! The internal specialist charged us $112 for a 30-day supply



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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-26-2015, 10:47 AM
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Denamarin is a supplement, so you don't need a prescription. You can buy it anywhere.

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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-26-2015, 07:12 PM
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If you're referencing Denamarin you can buy it for much less on Amazon.

I only buy sold by Amazon, not third parties. Prices range from 47-55 for the large over 35lb 30 pills. When it's below 50 I stock up. Been buying for over a 1.5 years with no issues.

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Ack! The internal specialist charged us $112 for a 30-day supply
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