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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
 
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When to neuter

When we got Ronin we asked a lot of questions and one was when to have him neutered. Our breeder told us to wait until he's at least a year preferrably a year and a half due to letting the growth plates close. First off, what are growth plates? I've always thought you want to do it when they are younger so they don't start marking territory in the house, mounting, etc...I wanted to get feedback from all of you as to what your opinions are on neutering and at what age to do it. What are the benefits, risks.
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 11:50 AM
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I have also been told to wait until at least 18 months due to growth plate and hormone issues, and scientifically the reasoning makes sense. bearing disasters, Lexx will remain intact until that age.

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 11:50 AM
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Well that's a new one for me. Wait till the growth plates close hmmmmmmmm I didn't know that testicles had any. LOL. SOrry, but it did make me laugh. Anywho, best to neuter around 6 months of age, before puberty starts.

Really Lexxsmom, well I do not know about it scientificaly, but I do know that any of my males who were neutered at 6 months grew up to be fine healthy well developed dogs with no growth problems.

Last edited by Darkevs; 04-07-2008 at 11:54 AM.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 11:57 AM
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Dogs neutered younger tend to grow taller and not look as masculine as those who are neutered when they are a bit more mature.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 12:01 PM
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Interesting, I have never noticed a difference in size only attitude. My neutered boys are just as well developed as my intact boys.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 12:13 PM
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read this article when deciding on the age to neuter
http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepape...iesArticle.pdf
there is a vet in ontario that will spay/neuter when cropping the ears, I am so opposed to this practice, it shocks me, but even more shocking is that one of the vet techs is a breeder and they sell all of their dobes this way
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 12:15 PM
 
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There are several threads about this already, so you may want to check the archives for their information because some of them are pretty detailed.

From personal experience, I have a very "tall" boy, and I neutered him at 5 months (the vet recommended it). I did research (after the fact when I was wondering why he was so tall) and too found information that neutering early does affect the growth plates, which results in a taller dog. (and some other things that I can't remember right off the top of my head) I know Kai's chest is not as broad (wide) across the front and to me this also means his legs are a bit closer together, He is Long, lean and tall!

He is 31" at the withers, where his dad is 27" his mom is 24" and the rest of his siblings are all within norms...

There are many more people hear that are, oh so more knowledgeable than I, but i thought I would share my experience.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 12:18 PM
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I have always read 6 months, but I am not an expert by any means, and I haven't had a male dobie, either.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 12:41 PM
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Does the same scientific study apply to when you should spay a female? If people start spayiing and neutering at 1 1/2 years of age I can see a lot of 'accidental' unwanted breedings taking place.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLS View Post
Does the same scientific study apply to when you should spay a female? If people start spayiing and neutering at 1 1/2 years of age I can see a lot of 'accidental' unwanted breedings taking place.
Good point. I have another question, and it might be a really stupid one, but as I said, I've always owned females. I know with horses, when they are gelded later on, they will still exhibit some stallion characteristics. Is this true of dogs, too?
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Dobes View Post
Good point. I have another question, and it might be a really stupid one, but as I said, I've always owned females. I know with horses, when they are gelded later on, they will still exhibit some stallion characteristics. Is this true of dogs, too?
i think they may,but im no expert.kane was fixed at 14 months old. he is very much like an intact male. drives,persona,appearance,etc. he lost his puppy face at 12 months,and looks more mature and kept mature appearance. this being my first dobie,i dont know if we fixed him at 11 months or before what would have been the case.he still ACTS intact. he still has bred a female with no pups(no nuts,but tied her...my bad,never heard of it and was too late),still marks high,still is a 'dominant' male.still is very much intact,in behaviours.i allways waited to about 8 months or more for my other dogs.i ussually let bitches intact till first heats over. then decide.beep is still an i dont know.since shes so big i may wait,till she stops growing and fills out.keep her seporated,and monitor her health,during heat cycle.female mammals have more calcium demands when growing. (our process shouldnt differ from dogs,too much,i wouldnt think)sorta like young women, hitting menopause puts on bone stress,in humans. i dont risk it with my dogs if there a larger breed.i wont take the chance as a spay sends them into menopause.(i know dogs heat for their lives,but i wouldnt risk it developmentally)
i may be off IMO but oh well.

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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 06:13 PM
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DLS, by neutering early (less than 6 months), the lack of testosterone delays the closure of the growth plates, resulting in longer long bones and a taller, less filled-out dog. Which is why most experts agree to wait until 1-1.5 years of age to neuter to allow the growth plates to close at a normal rate, resulting in a more filled-out dog that isn't too leggy. There are many threads on this subject

Personally, I wanted to wait until at least a year to neuter, but I couldn't take the hormones any more so I did it at 11 months. Most vets will tell you anytime after 6-7 months is okay, though with Dobes, the general consensus is to wait until around 18 months.



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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 06:26 PM
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We were an 11-month neuter also, 'cause the hormones got to me too. The info I had seen on about taller dogs involved neuters of dog between 8 weeks and 6 months, mostly at the early end of the range. I think I'd rather deal with a taller, leaner dog than one which has learned to mark territory and generally acts randy even after he is neutered.
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 06:46 PM
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Very interesting Burns, thank you,

All my boys were neutered between 6 and 8 months. And like I said the only difference I noticed between my neutered and my intact boys, was attitude.

And I say neuter them before they are 8 months old, if you are worried about growth plate closure, maybe see about putting them a low dose of testosterone. I wonder if that could be an option.

Burns did the study see just how much testosterone was needed and for how long?
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLS View Post
And I say neuter them before they are 8 months old, if you are worried about growth plate closure, maybe see about putting them a low dose of testosterone. I wonder if that could be an option.

Burns did the study see just how much testosterone was needed and for how long?
I don't think neutering after 6 months will affect the build to the point of being very noticeable. The studies done regarding this were on very young dogs - we're talking around 3 months old. And even then, I don't think the tallness bothers most people - considering they wouldn't know the difference compared to how tall the dog would've been if they had waited anyway. I wouldn't see a good compelling reason to supplement... the simple solution if a person is worried about a taller dog is to just wait to have the dog neutered instead of neutering them early and then giving them extra hormones.



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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 08:10 PM
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https://www.dobermantalk.com/town-hal...neutering.html

This information may help you make an educated decision. My veterinarian knows I am a responsible owner, so his suggestion for me, was to wait until Petey is full grown....18 months to 2 years old before I neuter him. He has read the studies about the growth plates with large dogs and feels it is better for the dog if you can wait longer. We are still hanging in there, Petey is 17 months old.

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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 08:54 PM
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Burns, I agree with you about not needing to put dogs on hormones. And I am against having neutering or spaying of dogs done before 6 months, that is way to young. I remember hearing about Vet's recommending that this be done around 12 weeks of age, but I do not know anyone who has. Has anyone here had a pup neutered or spayed at 3 - 6 months? If so what are your thoughts?
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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLS View Post
Burns, I agree with you about not needing to put dogs on hormones. And I am against having neutering or spaying of dogs done before 6 months, that is way to young. I remember hearing about Vet's recommending that this be done around 12 weeks of age, but I do not know anyone who has. Has anyone here had a pup neutered or spayed at 3 - 6 months? If so what are your thoughts?
My sister adopted a female dog around the time I got Petey...they spayed her before she even left the shelter...she was around 3 months old. All is well with her so far...she is a husky mix, very tall girl, but only 58 pounds.

Carol & Petey!
ox

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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 10:19 PM
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Here is an abstract from one of the relevant studies (published in '91, and not repeated to my knowledge):
Quote:
Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on skeletal, physical, and behavioral development.
Salmeri KR, Bloomberg MS, Scruggs SL, Shille V.

Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville 32610-0126.

In a 15-month study, the effects of prepubertal gonadectomy on skeletal growth, weight gain, food intake, body fat, secondary sex characteristics, and behavioral development were investigated in 32 mixed-breed dogs. Male and female pups from 5 litters were randomly allotted to 3 groups: group I, neuter at 7 weeks (n = 14); group II, neuter at 7 months (n = 8); and group III, sexually intact dogs (n = 10). Growth plate closure was delayed (group I vs group III; P less than 0.000001; group II vs group III, P less than 0.000001) in all neutered dogs, as compared with sexually intact dogs. Growth plate closure was delayed longer (group I vs group II, P less than 0.000045) in dogs neutered at 7 weeks old, compared with dogs neutered at 7 months old. The rate of growth was unaffected by gonadectomy, but the extended growth period resulted in greater final radial/ulnar length in all male dogs and bitches neutered at 7 weeks. Gonadectomy did not influence food intake, weight gain, or back-fat depth. Penile development was immature in the adult group-I males (mean +/- SEM diameter of pars glandis = 11.1 +/- 1.0 mm), compared with adult group-II (16.3 +/- 0.5 mm) and group-III (21.0 +/- 2.2 mm) males. Subjectively, the prepuce and os penis of the group-I males were immature, compared with those of group-II and group-III males. Vulvar development in group-I and group-II bitches was less mature than vulvar development in the sexually intact bitches. Of 7 behavioral characteristics assessed, only general activity and excitability rated differently among treatment groups. All neutered dogs were judged to be more active (group I, P less than 0.004) than sexually intact dogs. Group-I males were judged to be more excitable (P less than 0.02) than group-III males. It was concluded that with respect to skeletal, physical, and behavioral development, the effect of neutering pups at 7 weeks old was similar to that of neutering pups at 7 months old.

I also have a PDF copy of a December 2007 paper that summarizes a lot of pros/cons to early castration. However, the file is too large. PM me if you would like it emailed to you.

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Last edited by berkshire; 04-07-2008 at 10:19 PM. Reason: forgot some words
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 11:15 PM
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I asked this very question to a few of the vets and vet professors at UGACVM while we were taking a tour of the campus (my fiance was accepted into the CVM program). Their response, and this seemed to be a consensus, was that the testosterone has no bearing on the growth plates but does affect the 'filling out' of the dog to where the dog will appear taller.

They actually recommended, if we wanted to see Damien completely fill out and play it safe, to neuter at 2 - 3 yrs. Apparently, and I had no idea this was the case, dobies sometimes do not physically mature until 2 - 3 yrs old.

A few of their answers were based on large-breed dogs as a whole as a few were not dobie owners. Actually surprised to see the number of dobie owners there!

Last edited by Red Damien; 04-07-2008 at 11:17 PM.
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