"I don't want a show dog; I just want a pet." - Page 7 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #151 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marykate View Post
I wish that was the case but I know what was proposed to us. We met two breeders, we chose against one because we weren't sure that the European Dobermans were a good fit for our family. Not to say anything against the European line, they are beautiful, we just felt we didn't know enough about the European line. The other one wanted breeding rights, for us to cover all the vet bills on anything with the breeding, when we said we didn't want to breed (bf has breed dogs in past and he's over it) we were told that we would have to surrender here then when it was breeding time. Or when you feel a connection to a pup and your told, it's not a right fit for you and your family. Then you have to watch someone else get and raise that pup.
That's not what we were looking for what we wanted was a family member who wouldn't be leaving us for weeks.
Neither one of those sound like reputable breeders which is what the article is really about.
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post #152 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 09:58 AM
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Sounds like you need to find a different breeder then! There ARE breeders out there that match you the perfect puppy, and don't breed them because they are PET quality. They should not be bred. Most breeders don't take the dog away from you... I've never heard of that. I don't know who you talked to but that doesn't sound normal to say the least. Show quality dogs, yes, I can see a co ownership for breeding of the dog once it has finished their Ch, but that's the only reason I could see the breeder borrowing the dog. Whoever you spoke to does not sound reputable.

My dobe is not European either, he is 100% American show lines.

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post #153 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 10:10 AM
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I believe the two breeders are both amazing. I did feel a bond with one of the breeders and we like her a lot. The one we chose has experience and loves her dobs, I do believe this person when this person said it was not a good fit for one reason or another. This breeder was and still is someone I trust and would go to advice for in a heartbeat. This breeder was going to contact us when one that was right for us came along.
But we moved, causing us to look for another breeder because we know good breeders want to do house calls before adoption. We are in the process of talking to a different breeder now, we trust her.
Sadly we lost one of our Terriers and we haven't been able to open our hearts again, our other one will prob have a year or two left, vet says shes in good shape but shes 9.
We also have a 6 month old little girl and don't feel comfortable having any dogs around her.
We can't invest the time needed to train a pup they way we need to right now either, not like when we were looking before.
In our old neighborhood there was a male dob. He would sit in his front yard all day, he never left his yard and didn't have a fence, we were always amazed at that discipline, it was almost majestic.
Maybe some day we will try again.
In an off topic note, my bf uses this group as a sales lesson in his meetings at work. How to explain to a customer the importance of quality verse the cheap guys.
I just remembered there was a third breeder we met as well, she had expected one of her females to be pregnant and she wasn't so that was that.

Last edited by Marykate; 03-02-2015 at 10:39 AM. Reason: forgot third breeder
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post #154 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 10:48 AM
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We have also considered running a rescue for dobs, my bf used to run a pit bull rescue so he has experience. We are aware we will mostly get puppy mill dobs but at least we can give them a good second part of life. My understanding is they are no longer wanted once they hit five years old.
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post #155 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 10:59 AM
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yes that was it, co-ownership. It was an amazingly attractive pup. This is why I believe the co-ownership became an requirement.
The hopes we had was to get one of the litter that had a good line but was not meant for dog shows. We just don't have a lifestyle that could accommodate showing dogs. We do enjoy the competitions though, they are fun. Only bad experience we had at on was when someone brought their in heat female to the show, I think the diaper made her scent even stronger.
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post #156 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marykate View Post
yes that was it, co-ownership. It was an amazingly attractive pup. This is why I believe the co-ownership became an requirement.
The hopes we had was to get one of the litter that had a good line but was not meant for dog shows. We just don't have a lifestyle that could accommodate showing dogs. We do enjoy the competitions though, they are fun. Only bad experience we had at on was when someone brought their in heat female to the show, I think the diaper made her scent even stronger.


The way you word this 'litter that had good line but not meant for dog shows'

That is byb terminology plain and simple.


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post #157 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:11 AM
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I dont recall what byb means
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post #158 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:25 AM
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BYB= Backyard Breeder.

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post #159 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:26 AM
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But this is my point all over again, not all of us are good at communication and a lot is being read into. It's like there's these so called red flags that people fall into because so much is being read into.
Dobermans that are poorly breed tend to have major hereditary issues, I have read about them on here. So people who want a good doberman who don't want these issues turn to good breeders. Good breeders are usually show breeders, but if the owner doesn't want to do have a show dog, meaning they don't want to do the shows or co-ownership its a red flag.
Some people are just good people looking for a good line to avoid hereditary issues are willing to pay show dog prices but are aware that not every dog in the litter would be viable for a show dog for one reason or another, but are willing to pay for quality of the line.
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post #160 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:27 AM
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ty, I recalled after the post
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post #161 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marykate View Post
But this is my point all over again, not all of us are good at communication and a lot is being read into. It's like there's these so called red flags that people fall into because so much is being read into.
Dobermans that are poorly breed tend to have major hereditary issues, I have read about them on here. So people who want a good doberman who don't want these issues turn to good breeders. Good breeders are usually show breeders, but if the owner doesn't want to do have a show dog, meaning they don't want to do the shows or co-ownership its a red flag.
Some people are just good people looking for a good line to avoid hereditary issues are willing to pay show dog prices but are aware that not every dog in the litter would be viable for a show dog for one reason or another, but are willing to pay for quality of the line.
I think you are misunderstanding the article. It's not a red flag if a potential buyer doesn't want a show prospect or co-ownership. Reputable breeders need pet buyers and are thrilled when a knowledgeable home comes along that just wants a companion.
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post #162 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:44 AM
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Not every pup in a litter is 'show quality' yet the breeder carefully screens their puppy buyers, they title, health test and are there for the lifetime of the pet.

Byb/greeders use interesting turns of phrase to entice people in, but once they have your money they're often done with you.

If more people would do their homework, and not be so impulsive or in such a hurry to purchase a puppy. Commercial breeders and greeders would have a much harder time selling their pups.


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post #163 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:45 AM
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could be, thank you for understanding.
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post #164 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marykate View Post
could be, thank you for understanding.
I always try to buy from a good breeder. Sometimes I get rescues, but when I buy a puppy, I know what I am getting. I don't show in the breed ring and I make that clear up front and it doesn't affect much at all. My last puppy I bought from good lines with a well-titled sire front and back while the dam had performance titles. That was what I wanted - a performance puppy from good lines - love her so much and she is so easy to live with. I also asked for and was given the right to keep the ears natural (I grew up around natural ears). Before that I had 2 males at different times from a quality breeder close to me - no breed ring but used for performance sports. Before that a variety of rescues and then a quality puppy from a show litter (before I started performance sports with dogs), etc. back thru time to mid-70's where I bought my 1st quality puppy that I didn't intend to show and the breeder knew it.

I am just saying it has always been the case that a litter rarely contains 100% conformation champion material and therefore there are a lot of pups from well-bred litters that need good homes. Breeders love having these people available to sell their non-breed ring pups to - many go onto to have great careers in obedience, rally, agility, protection (depends on the lines here much more so than the other sports).

I understand where you are coming from.


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post #165 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SieYa View Post
Not every pup in a litter is 'show quality' yet the breeder carefully screens their puppy buyers, they title, health test and are there for the lifetime of the pet.

Byb/greeders use interesting turns of phrase to entice people in, but once they have your money they're often done with you.

If more people would do their homework, and not be so impulsive or in such a hurry to purchase a puppy. Commercial breeders and greeders would have a much harder time selling their pups.
That's why we never got one. We will not support a puppy mill or a byb. We waited and now that the way our life is we can't take on a puppy. We have read all the stories on here of the puppy mill pups issues.
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post #166 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
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I always try to buy from a good breeder. Sometimes I get rescues, but when I buy a puppy, I know what I am getting. I don't show in the breed ring and I make that clear up front and it doesn't affect much at all. My last puppy I bought from good lines with a well-titled sire front and back while the dam had performance titles. That was what I wanted - a performance puppy from good lines - love her so much and she is so easy to live with. I also asked for and was given the right to keep the ears natural (I grew up around natural ears). Before that I had 2 males at different times from a quality breeder close to me - no breed ring but used for performance sports. Before that a variety of rescues and then a quality puppy from a show litter (before I started performance sports with dogs), etc. back thru time to mid-70's where I bought my 1st quality puppy that I didn't intend to show and the breeder knew it.

I am just saying it has always been the case that a litter rarely contains 100% conformation champion material and therefore there are a lot of pups from well-bred litters that need good homes. Breeders love having these people available to sell their non-breed ring pups to - many go onto to have great careers in obedience, rally, agility, protection (depends on the lines here much more so than the other sports).

I understand where you are coming from.
Over the past two years I have started to feel maybe my heart for dobs will be better as a rescue though than buying one, maybe someday when there's no more orphaned dobs, it will be time to get my own.
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post #167 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-29-2015, 01:58 PM
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"I don't want a show dog; I just want a pet"

For me what I mean when I talk to a breeder is, if you have something that you think is spectacular and your expectations are to find an owner to show and finish him, well that's not me.
I appreciate a well bred dog. I know there is no money in breeding. (if done to improve the quality of the breed) Hopefully one day you will find me in the obedience ring competing with my Doberman, and I would want him to look like a nice specimen when I'm in the ring.
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post #168 of 201 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 01:13 PM
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It's funny to me because the precise reason I was alright with paying top dollar for a health tested high quality puppy is so that I could have "just a pet" doberman. I don't have any concrete plans to show her in any discipline as of yet (considering schutzhund or agility now) but I knew that if I paid attention to the details that mattered and found a breeder that was the same, the money would be well worth it in the long run. I want a balanced intelligent dog and I know that even for "just a pet" I'm going to be paying for that big time. But I'm ok with it knowing that she's in good health, good pedigree and that she came from a responsible quality breeder. People who say they don't want to pay up haven't done their research because in the end, you get what you paid for.
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post #169 of 201 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 09:12 PM
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Don't make the same mistake I did...

I read through these discussions and also thought I just wanted a "pet" quality Doberman, so I paid the $1500 for an Ozark Autumn Doberman. This dog is sweet and attractive, but has more health problems than any dog I have ever owned. The specialist I dealt with for her hereditary issue indicated the DCM testing they complete is NOT adequate. I will also warn that they were very nice up until the point that the dog clearly had hereditary issues, and instead of standing up to their contract they disappeared and ignored my correspondence. Maybe a few people were lucky enough to get a healthy dog, but I wasn't, and I certainly found a breeder who is a veterinarian but doesn't seem to have the standards that other breeders would follow. Although I love the dog dearly, there has been a lot of heartbreak, and we are finally past her hereditary issue thanks to listening to the specialist rather than the breeder who is a vet.

The next time I will select a breeder who I have met in advance and many people in the show world know, but is still pet quality. I could have had a $4000 dog already and my dog is a year old, so please don't make the same mistake I did. Many regrets, and I didn't do enough research to find a reputable breeder. I can only hope this post saves someone else from making the same mistake I did.
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post #170 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-19-2018, 04:40 PM
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Sorry I could not disagree with you more!! I have owned Dobermans for 40 plus years. I not only owned but I trained, showed, breed. I have purchased Dobes from the so call rep show breeders with outstanding reference, with big title and CH al over the papers. I had nothing but health issues from these breeders and short life of the Doberman. I am looking for a new puppy I just lost my Dobe of 11 years to Bone Cancer. I will not look at puppies until I see the Sire and Bitch. If I don't like the Sire and Bitch I wont even look at the puppies there is no point in seeing them. The breeder must have DNA and Genetitc testing done and paperwork they can put in my hand. I want vet records of the care from the breeders vet. I want to see how this breeder care for there dog. I do not want a Confirmation Show breeder, I am looking for Working Class Breeder only. Dobermans are a working class breed they need a job, I have been going to shows again for about 6 months again, Confirmation Show Dobermans do not show the need to work. Confirmation Show Breeder seems to only be breeding as to the look that wins. and do not look at the improvement and stability of the breed. I am not say all Confirmation Breeders are like this, but it seams to more are that are not with what I have been seeing at the shows. If you compare the Doberman breed today to the Doberman Breed of 15 to 20 years ago, the Dobermans today cannot even compare the Doberman 15 to 20 years ago. Todays Doberman are very substandard to Dobermans 15 to 20 years ago. The health issues have more that tripled.

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post #171 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-19-2018, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtewell View Post
Sorry I could not disagree with you more!! I have owned Dobermans for 40 plus years. I not only owned but I trained, showed, breed. I have purchased Dobes from the so call rep show breeders with outstanding reference, with big title and CH al over the papers. I had nothing but health issues from these breeders and short life of the Doberman. I am looking for a new puppy I just lost my Dobe of 11 years to Bone Cancer. I will not look at puppies until I see the Sire and Bitch. If I don't like the Sire and Bitch I wont even look at the puppies there is no point in seeing them. The breeder must have DNA and Genetitc testing done and paperwork they can put in my hand. I want vet records of the care from the breeders vet. I want to see how this breeder care for there dog. I do not want a Confirmation Show breeder, I am looking for Working Class Breeder only. Dobermans are a working class breed they need a job, I have been going to shows again for about 6 months again, Confirmation Show Dobermans do not show the need to work. Confirmation Show Breeder seems to only be breeding as to the look that wins. and do not look at the improvement and stability of the breed. I am not say all Confirmation Breeders are like this, but it seams to more are that are not with what I have been seeing at the shows. If you compare the Doberman breed today to the Doberman Breed of 15 to 20 years ago, the Dobermans today cannot even compare the Doberman 15 to 20 years ago. Todays Doberman are very substandard to Dobermans 15 to 20 years ago. The health issues have more that tripled.
I don't personally think that the health and average age has changed much at all among Dobermans from show breeders. Some die young some live an average span of about 9.5 years and some live longer. The difference is that you hear about it on social media, AND that there is a lot more testing and telling. You can't lump all show breeders together, just like you can't lump other breeders all together. However, if you think the average (non show) breeder out there will be doing all of the health tests, then I think you are fooling yourself!! Health testing isn't cheap - the average breeder out there is doing very little of it. The unfortunate truth about Dobermans is that heart disease is EVERYWHERE - there truly is no getting away from it. My second litter of 6 is 8 years old now. Their dam (my bitch) lived to 11 and had a totally normal heart ultrasound and EKG at age 10 1/2 - she dropped dead at age 11 6 months later. .... after the cardiologist and I laughed about the fact that she would NOT die of heart disease. The sire is STILL alive at almost 13. One died of cancer at age 2, one dropped dead a month ago at age 8, one was just diagnosed with cardio last week. The other 3 all appear to be healthy..... but who knows as I can't force their owners to get health testing.... I can only advise what they should do. How the heck could I have done better as far as health goes? It was an outcross of two champion dogs that were both completely health tested and from healthy pedigrees. Great fantastic pedigrees and health along with fantastic temperaments - I sure as heck would take those dogs over what is being produced by byb breeders out there. At least I can look at my pet homes & show homes in the eye and know that I did everything that could be done to produce a really good dog with a good chance of living a long life. I didn't just say a prayer and breed!
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post #172 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-19-2018, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtewell View Post
Sorry I could not disagree with you more!! I have owned Dobermans for 40 plus years. I not only owned but I trained, showed, breed. I have purchased Dobes from the so call rep show breeders with outstanding reference, with big title and CH al over the papers. I had nothing but health issues from these breeders and short life of the Doberman. I am looking for a new puppy I just lost my Dobe of 11 years to Bone Cancer. I will not look at puppies until I see the Sire and Bitch. If I don't like the Sire and Bitch I wont even look at the puppies there is no point in seeing them. The breeder must have DNA and Genetitc testing done and paperwork they can put in my hand. I want vet records of the care from the breeders vet. I want to see how this breeder care for there dog. I do not want a Confirmation Show breeder, I am looking for Working Class Breeder only. Dobermans are a working class breed they need a job, I have been going to shows again for about 6 months again, Confirmation Show Dobermans do not show the need to work. Confirmation Show Breeder seems to only be breeding as to the look that wins. and do not look at the improvement and stability of the breed. I am not say all Confirmation Breeders are like this, but it seams to more are that are not with what I have been seeing at the shows. If you compare the Doberman breed today to the Doberman Breed of 15 to 20 years ago, the Dobermans today cannot even compare the Doberman 15 to 20 years ago. Todays Doberman are very substandard to Dobermans 15 to 20 years ago. The health issues have more that tripled.
This is an interesting view as far as I'm concerned.

I've had Dobes since 1959--knew nothing about getting a Doberman when I was looking for my first one. I wanted a show dog. I'd been to my first dog show with my college roommate who was starting to show a Great Dane puppy. The breed in the ring after Danes happened to be Dobes. So that's what I wanted and I wanted to show my dog.

I got incredibly lucky with that first dog--and as a green as grass novice I got (quite accidently) the pick male of the litter--who was also probably the pick puppy of the litter) The breeder, who was at that time an owner handler was willing to put on little conformation classes for those of us who thought we wanted to show--and he did that from the time the puppies were 4 months old until the owners no longer wanted to come and practice.

I owner handled and finished that dog in AKC and Canadian KC--and it wasn't any easier for an owner handler to do that in 1960 than it is now--if fact, if anything there were fewer dogs owner handled at the time.

By my second dog I knew how to look for what I wanted (a show prospect) and I knew where most of the prospective show puppies came from.

Most of my dogs have lived to 9 to 10 years. And the most recent ones have made to 10 and more and the charming fawn dog who lives with me now is now 12 years and 4 months and still going strong--oh, and fawn or not he actually still has a full coat. All of my dogs have been from show line breeders and since 1996 all of my dogs have finished their championships (although I no longer owner handle) and have performance titles as well. All of them passed the WAE and also had a ROM.

Did I see the sire and dam of all of the--no, I didn't but I always knew what the breeding lines were and had seen at least half of the dogs behind the puppy I was thinking about.

I either know the breeder of the prospective puppy or I know what their reputation is. I know who tests and I know how to find out if they are telling the truth about health testing. I know which conditions have genetic tests and which ones don't.

I do want a conformation breeder because the first thing I'm always looking for is a show prospect. I've found over time that with only one exception all of my Dobes have been able to do performance stuff and do reasonably well at it. I'm not going to be looking at breeders who are "Working Class breeders"--if I had an interest in training for IPO or Ring I might have a different opinion but that's not what I want--and if I wanted a good pet and never wanted to go into a show ring again or do anything else except walk my dog and watch tv with him I'd still be looking for puppies from conformation breeders. In my opinion that's a good way to find a good pet. Many of the Working breeders are looking for 'podium' dogs which are often too 'drivey' for the average pet owner.

I don't think that Dobermans born today are worse than those born 15 to 20 years ago. I don't think temperaments are worse. And I surely don't think there are more health problems.

I had this breed 57 years ago--I've watched both temperaments and conformation improve over the years. Periodically I note that there is a change in style in the ring--for awhile but I have also watched these "different' looking dogs produce offspring that aren't so different looking and in fact, over time end up being responsible for changes that are entirely beneficial to the breed.

And as for deteriorating health issues--many people don't realize just how much medicine has improved over the years. Diagnostics identify problems that I KNOW existed in the breed but were simply written off as 'normal'. Treatment is many times better. And just because you think you hear about more health issues you should also take into consideration the fact that with the internet and instant communications you hear about a lot more issues than used to be the case--when the only information trail was word of mouth, the telephone and/or USPS.

I don't breed--I figured that out with my third Dobe--a bitch and when I bred her I ended up with two male puppies--I was hoping for a nice bitch AND I discovered that after whelping and raising those puppies I had a very hard time finding what I regarded as 'good' homes for them. So I make a point of meeting breeders, talking to them and watching what they produce and how they do it--and I get my puppies from them

Frankly, I'm very happy with what the conformation breeders have done with this breed over the years. By and large I've had very health dogs and dogs that would 'work' at anything I taught them.

Our starting points are different, obviously, since what I want first and foremost is a show prospect but I've been the intermediary between a first time owner and enough conformation breeders to know that the same breeders who have produced my very satisfactory show dogs have also provided friends of mine with wonderful, long lived, healthy pets over the years.
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post #173 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 09:24 PM
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Dobebug I liked and enjoyed reading you reply, and I am really glad that you have had good luck with a show conformation breeders, My Dobes of the 70's and that I breed and owned had much better structure, and confirmation than the Doberman of today and had life of 13 to 16 year of age. With that being said breeding today is much different, I researched each and every Dobe that I own and breed, I crossed map every dog back a full 10 generation back. When I go to shows today the Doberman just don't have the confirmation and structure that the Doberman from 10 to 15 years ago. You also do not see the Doberman winning in major shows like they did 10 to 15 years ago. I just see better structure and confirmation within the Working Class verse the Conformation show class of the Doberman today. Testing today has advanced, but Just in the time that I have started my search for a new baby, high ranking show breeders that I have been to are doing not paying attention to DNA testing, but they will tell you when you caught this, Oh well yes both the Sire and the Bitch are both carrier we have never had a problem and keep on breeding, When I go to show I see owner and breeder using Black shoe polish and covering up white on the chest of the Dobermans, Working Class breeder are doing DNA and Genetic test on there Dobes, I don't get a lot of my information from word of mouth or off the internet I follow the medical information from Top Vet Medical Facilities and teaching facilities in the USA. I just had, last week had a well know show breed could not even tell me what went to the development of Doberman, I am not say all show breeder are like this, and I have ran across others that are very knowledgeable, but I have walked away from there litters because I just did not like the Sire and Bitch, and most Show Breeder do not have both on site, witch is a big red flag me. It took me 5 years to find my last Dobe and I am not apposed to looking at Show Breeder because you just never know what I will find, I am just looking for the best Doberman for me, just because of my love for the breed, and I just don't want to live life without a Doberman in my life. .
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post #174 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 09:40 PM
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Dobermanlove2 You just proved my point, your post was excellent, A lot of breeders what vet reference of the buyer, This time around I am requiring a vet reference and client references on the breeder,
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post #175 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 10:02 PM
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caloric,, great point on the line breeding , I went back 10 generations. It is to bad that AQHA don't clean up there act and start letting horse move with nature collection in Western Pleasure!!!!
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