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post #126 of 201 (permalink) Old 05-06-2013, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dwspinks View Post
Another issue that I have found is that it seems to me that most breeders are not very responsive to prospective buyers if they are not looking for show prospects. That may be incorrect, it maybe that they do not respond to any potential customers. I have contacted numerous breeders and have only been responded to by 3 and only 1 of them has replied to my second email. One of them has been fantastic, phone calls, emails and a great deal of time at her place. The others do not respond and I have found many websites listed with bad links to them. i know breeders are in a hobby, not a profession, but I must admit I have been disappointed with the lack of response from most of them that I contacted.
I haven't found that to be true. I think the response sometimes depends on the contact. I think the best way to contact breeders is to prepare almost a resume. Describe yourself, what you are looking for, and what you like about their breeding program. They get tons of emails that are just "Do you have puppies/How much are your puppies" and I think those tend to be ignored. Also, know that many breeders are better with phone rather than email, so you may try calling some of those you haven't heard from and leaving a brief message with some information about yourself.
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post #127 of 201 (permalink) Old 05-06-2013, 03:06 PM
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I've found, when looking around for myself or for a friend, asking questions other than "do you have puppies and how much are they" is going to get you so much farther.

When I started sniffing around for breeders shortly after joining this forum, I didn't even ask any of them about price or whether or not they had a litter at the moment or even planned that year. Instead I asked about temperament and drive, since I'm particularly interested in sports but not super competitive- I will go as far as the dog will take me, whether that's never getting the chance to title or all the way to nationals. I told them about the plethora of small animals in the house and the plans to keep dogs away from them. I told them my past experience with dogs, what I did and did not like about each one that I've owned, and what I'd consider to be my ideal dog. I then asked them how their dogs measured up to that.

I think the difference is that I started a conversation, instead of just reading off the same copy/paste list of questions that everyone gets. I told them what I like, and asked them what they like, what faults they see in their dogs and what strengths they have. Then I started asking about health and longevity and the subject of cropping/docking/dewclaw removal (I prefer a natural dog), THEN after all that I asked about price. I'm pretty comfortable where I'm at now, and I only got there because I had these conversations.




BTW I think between when I first started putting feelers and when I stopped, I must have contacted probably every working breeder on this side of the states and a couple on the west coast, plus several show breeders. And still no puppy, though I am on a list And out of all those people, only one did not respond, though when speaking to one of their puppy buyers apparently sometimes that breeder loses emails and if I was really concerned I could probably just give them a call.

I am NOT a show person by any means, I've come to appreciate the work it takes to get show titles but I've got very little interest in the whole thing. I make that very clear in my first email that the most I'd be interested in is some training on how to stack for pictures. Other than that my dog is a pet first, a competitor in sport second, and (due to some new health things) a possible service dog third. I truly think, because of my long-winded conversations, that is why I don't seem to have much of a problem getting a reply email.

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post #128 of 201 (permalink) Old 05-06-2013, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dwspinks View Post
Another issue that I have found is that it seems to me that most breeders are not very responsive to prospective buyers if they are not looking for show prospects. That may be incorrect, it maybe that they do not respond to any potential customers. I have contacted numerous breeders and have only been responded to by 3 and only 1 of them has replied to my second email. One of them has been fantastic, phone calls, emails and a great deal of time at her place. The others do not respond and I have found many websites listed with bad links to them. i know breeders are in a hobby, not a profession, but I must admit I have been disappointed with the lack of response from most of them that I contacted.
While I've never had the issue of responses but to understand the annoyance, I can say that back to the issue of competing with back yard breeders and puppy mills, one can see how the deck is stacked. I have around 2k to spend on a puppy. I searched and realized very quickly there aren't very many reputable breeders in my state nevermind my city so after expanding my search to a nationwide one and spending days upon days of trying to find breeders who actually have puppies available it becomes quite tiresome. Then if I do happen to find a reputable breeder who just happens to have puppies available then I have to worry about the extra cost of shipping because most of those breeders want you to either fly to meet half way or you have to pay for their flights to you for a hand delivery. Now while I do understand worrying about the little puppy flying, again it's just one more incurred cost and inconvenience in an already complex process.

In a world where people want to be able to point click and not pay so much it's a lost cause. But even to those who can afford the higher standard pups it's an overburdened process. I mean at the end of the day for someone who thinks about things on the most simplistic of terms it goes something like this..."Ok so after searching for a few days, now you want me to get on a waiting list for a puppy that is going to cost me around $2,000. On top of that because I don't really want to wait half a year for a puppy anywhere near my area, that means you want me to pay another $500 or more for flights??" As a friend of mine said...I can go on a once in a lifetime trip to Thailand for 3k.

I mean you do have to see the concern of the consumer right?
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post #129 of 201 (permalink) Old 05-06-2013, 06:01 PM
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I haven't found that to be true. I think the response sometimes depends on the contact. I think the best way to contact breeders is to prepare almost a resume. Describe yourself, what you are looking for, and what you like about their breeding program. They get tons of emails that are just "Do you have puppies/How much are your puppies" and I think those tend to be ignored. Also, know that many breeders are better with phone rather than email, so you may try calling some of those you haven't heard from and leaving a brief message with some information about yourself.
I have not sent an email that says "Do you have puppies and how much?" I have not even inquired about the price in my initial emails. I have been very direct and very informative of my background with Dobermans and what I am looking for. I appreciate your reply, but I must say from personal experience for the most part I do not agree. Maybe you are correct in saying that phone would be better. Thanks again for your reply.
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post #130 of 201 (permalink) Old 05-07-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dwspinks View Post
I have not sent an email that says "Do you have puppies and how much?" I have not even inquired about the price in my initial emails. I have been very direct and very informative of my background with Dobermans and what I am looking for. I appreciate your reply, but I must say from personal experience for the most part I do not agree. Maybe you are correct in saying that phone would be better. Thanks again for your reply.
I think you're right to some extent, that many breeders have bigger agendas for their animals and if you're not a potential owner who will further their goals based on what you plan to do with your pup, they view you as a waste of their time unless you already have experience showing or training dogs.

It might depend on who you were asking, too. Some breeders have long waiting lists, some seem to just be too scatterbrained or "busy" to respond to inquiries unless they have puppies that are almost ready to go.

Meadowcat is right about trying to engage, but giving a breeder what amounts to your CV is a bit much. A personalized inquiry about whether they have any upcoming litters might be about right. If so, THEN try to talk details. Most people stop reading after a sentence or two, so make it an elevator pitch. Obviously, I don't have the art of being succinct down very well.

For those elitists who want to screen you as a qualified buyer by having you fill-out the questionnaire before they'll communicate with you, even answering very simple questions, ask yourself if that's the sort of person you want to have any dealings with. Unqualified buyers especially need guidance and may become qualified someday, treating them like garbage and not taking a little time to steer them towards a good entry-level choice will only result in an increased probability of poor choices being made. Would a truly reputable breeder snub a newbie, knowing a greeder would be more than glad to talk with them and take their money?

There are a lot of unprofessional reasons a breeder might not bother to respond; do you really want to buy a puppy from someone who won't give you the time of day in response to your honest inquiry simply because they don't have anything to sell you at that moment? How well will they respond down the road if you encounter a challenging situation relating to the health or temperament of the puppy you purchased from them?

Keep looking, sooner or later you'll find someone who isn't so rude as to not even acknowledge your honest inquiries.

Last edited by kaloric; 05-07-2013 at 11:09 AM.
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post #131 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 09:50 PM
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I think you're right to some extent, that many breeders have bigger agendas for their animals and if you're not a potential owner who will further their goals based on what you plan to do with your pup, they view you as a waste of their time unless you already have experience showing or training dogs.
Hi i'm new here and i've been trying to find reputable breeders and have found some excellent recommendations from people on DT. However, when i'm responding to breeder or filling out the "What are your plans for your puppy?"
What is the correct answer?

What if I want to do only obedience titles with my dog but don't want to do any schutzhund work, how do they look at that? At what point do you have to start lying and being deceptive so you can be put on the "list"?
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post #132 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasDobie View Post
Hi i'm new here and i've been trying to find reputable breeders and have found some excellent recommendations from people on DT. However, when i'm responding to breeder or filling out the "What are your plans for your puppy?"
What is the correct answer?

What if I want to do only obedience titles with my dog but don't want to do any schutzhund work, how do they look at that? At what point do you have to start lying and being deceptive so you can be put on the "list"?
The world is small, you might get blacklisted from all breeders just by lying to one. Nothing wrong with putting down, "just wanting a pet" or in your case obedience.
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post #133 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasDobie View Post
Hi i'm new here and i've been trying to find reputable breeders and have found some excellent recommendations from people on DT. However, when i'm responding to breeder or filling out the "What are your plans for your puppy?"
What is the correct answer?

What if I want to do only obedience titles with my dog but don't want to do any schutzhund work, how do they look at that? At what point do you have to start lying and being deceptive so you can be put on the "list"?
You shouldn't have to lie to get a puppy from a good breeder. Most litters will have "pet" puppies, meaning that they simply are not going to be an outstanding show or serious sport dog. Probably more puppies are sold as pets than show or working prospects, I think. Just tell the breeder that you want a pet that is capable of being a good obedience dog. I have rescues, and my dogs are first and foremost my pets. Any "working ability" is icing on the cake.


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post #134 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-06-2013, 12:31 AM
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I am just saying what I was looking for in the breed. The first thing was temperment, do they live with toddlers, any z factors and can I call your vet. Then we went from their. Yeah the money thing was an issue to a point. Was not spending no 3000.00 on a dog have it or not. But thanks to you on this website I learned alot about the breed and found an outstanding vet Dr. Christopher Johnson Lemont Il. My family and I are proud doberman owners and our children have a wonderful friend and protector in our home with an amazing personality.
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post #135 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-06-2013, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasDobie View Post
Hi i'm new here and i've been trying to find reputable breeders and have found some excellent recommendations from people on DT. However, when i'm responding to breeder or filling out the "What are your plans for your puppy?"
What is the correct answer?

What if I want to do only obedience titles with my dog but don't want to do any schutzhund work, how do they look at that? At what point do you have to start lying and being deceptive so you can be put on the "list"?
I would feel absolutely terrible if I ever lied to someone so important to the life of my dog. Plus, once you're found out in a lie, you may never get the opportunity to buy from reputable breeders again. Word spreads fast, in small communities like these.

But plenty of people on this forum have requested "just a pet", or a dog to get their feet wet in obedience and agility, but not schutzhund, from good breeders. I let mine know that I'm not uber competitive, I want to dip my toes in sports but if it ends up not working for the both of us then I'm not heartbroken. There are some who just say, my plans for the dog is for it to be a loving active member of the household... and that's perfectly fine for an answer*!


** For some breeders, they'll have litters or even lines that might not be suited to a "just a pet" lifestyle as much. There are some breeders of working dobes that have requested sport-only buyers, and some breeders of show dobes that have requested show-only buyers. But overall the above remains true.

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post #136 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-06-2013, 08:39 AM
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I had two people that lied about why they wanted a puppy from my first litter - I can tell you that I'd never sell to them again and would warn other breeders about them. The world of reputable breeders is small and word gets around.

Don't lie - be totally honest about what you want or you may end up with a puppy that is way more than you bargained for or a breeder who might take you to court to get a puppy back when you don't live up to your end of the contract.

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post #137 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-06-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasDobie View Post
Hi i'm new here and i've been trying to find reputable breeders and have found some excellent recommendations from people on DT. However, when i'm responding to breeder or filling out the "What are your plans for your puppy?"
What is the correct answer?

What if I want to do only obedience titles with my dog but don't want to do any schutzhund work, how do they look at that? At what point do you have to start lying and being deceptive so you can be put on the "list"?
Don't lie. Good breeders need pet homes too, just say you are looking for a well bred pet. If you want to do obedience, agility, rally or protection work for fun, say that as well. Just be honest, word does get around.

Welcome from another Las Vegan.
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post #138 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-06-2013, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasDobie View Post
Hi i'm new here and i've been trying to find reputable breeders and have found some excellent recommendations from people on DT. However, when i'm responding to breeder or filling out the "What are your plans for your puppy?"
What is the correct answer?

What if I want to do only obedience titles with my dog but don't want to do any schutzhund work, how do they look at that? At what point do you have to start lying and being deceptive so you can be put on the "list"?
What the others said.

How I look at it is that the correct answer is the truth. If some elitist breeder won't consider you because they don't like your answer or type of ambition (or lack thereof), I think the better question is, "Why would you want to get a puppy from them in the first place?" Judging is a two-way street.

The worst mistake you can make is lying about your ambitions to get on a list, you are most likely to succeed in getting entirely the wrong dog based on what your actual interests are; that's most likely to result in the breeder being pissed over the deception, you being disappointed, and the dog being confused.

So by the example you mention, if you want to pretty much do only obedience, while a dog from strong working lines may be good at that, it might also be a bit too sharp & hard (things more needed for being a tough bodyguard). That would probably make it an unnecessary handful, requiring more handling skill on your part in areas you're not interested in honing your skills in, at some expense of time spent doing what you wanted to practice.
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post #139 of 201 (permalink) Old 06-10-2013, 08:46 PM
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Thanks for the responses.

Yeah I would never lie just to get a dog. I feel it is in my best interest anyways to tell the truth about my situation and get the most compatible puppy from the breeder. If I lie, I would be the one losing out and the dog.

I am learning though, that not all puppies in a litter will be high drive|prey prospects. So that is a good thing.
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post #140 of 201 (permalink) Old 09-22-2013, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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All of the off-topic posts have been moved to a new thread: https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...g-vs-show.html. Please keep this thread on topic.


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post #141 of 201 (permalink) Old 11-03-2013, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by justduff3324 View Post
I'm trying not to be long winded althought being brief can leave out important details.

Tell me if you read it differently but the origional poster was basically saying if you want a doberman who looks and acts like a doberman then you should go though a qualified breeder who has experts confirm that their dog is a doberman.

I do not disagree with this statement.

The origional poster all states that they believe people buy cheap doberman because they want a deal.

I was arguing against this point. Not everyone wants a deal, but people probably want what is affordable. If they simply can't afford $2,000 it doesn't matter how much they want quality they can't afford it. And at the end of the day they want a dog. They will buy a BYB dog rather than have no dog.

My point was if you want to stop people going to BYB then if you can make the breed more affordable you will allow more to buy quality dogs who want them.

If your dog costs more than a car then you can't be mad when people buy a BYB dog.
I think it is the PERCEPTION that needs adjusting. $2000 is not expensive, its not cheap but it definitely affordable although it may require budgeting etc. For that price you get a healthy pup from a reputable breeder complete with a 'helpline') Buying a pup (for me) is adding a member to our family. A baby is going to cost at least at least $2000 -3000 to set up the nursery, buy all the clothes etc, a puppy is really no different. No one having a baby expects it to be cheap, so why expect a pup to be. If people would stop forming their decisions to acquire a puppy based on price we might stamp out BYB.

If you want a decent pup you have to pay for it. Fullstop. For me personally saying it is about price is a cop out, as others have said if you genuinely cant or dont want to pay big $$ then rescue is the answer. Buying a dodgy pup is not, not matter how 'cheap' it is. IMO
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post #142 of 201 (permalink) Old 11-03-2013, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustGran View Post
I think it is the PERCEPTION that needs adjusting. $2000 is not expensive, its not cheap but it definitely affordable although it may require budgeting etc. For that price you get a healthy pup from a reputable breeder complete with a 'helpline') Buying a pup (for me) is adding a member to our family. A baby is going to cost at least at least $2000 -3000 to set up the nursery, buy all the clothes etc, a puppy is really no different. No one having a baby expects it to be cheap, so why expect a pup to be. If people would stop forming their decisions to acquire a puppy based on price we might stamp out BYB.

If you want a decent pup you have to pay for it. Fullstop. For me personally saying it is about price is a cop out, as others have said if you genuinely cant or dont want to pay big $$ then rescue is the answer. Buying a dodgy pup is not, not matter how 'cheap' it is. IMO
You know, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Why is it that people balk at the idea of spending $2000 for a dog? That dog is going to be your FAMILY member. I bet if you asked people to think back on their last pet or fond memories of a dog who has passed, and asked if they would pay $2000 to have that back, most people wouldn't even flinch.

People spend that kind of money on a TV for crying out loud. Maybe I'm in the minority, but my dogs sure mean more to me than a TV! Once when I was talking to a friend I found myself almost apologizing for my "dog craziness" because of the amount of $ I spend. My friend said, "Why should you feel bad? People spend tons of money on all kinds of random hobbies." He said a friend of his spends hundreds of dollars a month on video games.

To me it seems like a no-brainer. I guess I value dogs a lot more than many people, but I don't see why $2000 is such a steep price for a family member. Save the money or save a life. Those are the only two options IMO.


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post #143 of 201 (permalink) Old 07-25-2014, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Most litters will have "pet" puppies, meaning that they simply are not going to be an outstanding show or serious sport dog.
Hi everyone. I know I pulled this from an old thread but I have always wondered at what age a breeder can tell if the puppies are of show quality? A good representation of the breed? What should a person look for (physically) when examining a puppy? I'm no expert for sure. I have had a Doberman before (for 11 years) but to actually know a certain puppy has a better chance of being a show quality dog versus a puppy that will be sold as a pet would be a bit difficult. I'm thinking any obvious flaws would stand out but other flaws would show up as the puppy ages. I could be wrong though. That is why I am asking the experts!

Oh...I'm sorry if this has been brought up before but I couldn't fine anything asking this exact question. Thanks in advance
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post #144 of 201 (permalink) Old 07-25-2014, 02:26 PM
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usually by the time they're ready to go to their homes (8 weeks, minimum), a breeder will know which are show prospects and which aren't.
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post #145 of 201 (permalink) Old 08-22-2014, 10:33 PM
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As usual, The Dog Snobs hit the nail on the head. How Shitty is Your Breeder? Another Dog Snob Guide to Life | The Dog Snobs


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post #146 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-01-2015, 09:51 PM
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This is why I have been one of those people who say "I don't want a show dog, I want a pet". That's what we wanted a family member for our home. We did research so we learned we needed a good breeder and were will to put in good money for a quality dog from a good line, which should reduce the chances of hereditary issues.
I have no interest in breeding dogs ever and that is not going to change. We didn't want to support a puppy mill so we never got a Doberman.
Maybe some day a Doberman will end up at our pound and we will adopt it, but they are not common here. We have a good home, He or she would have had a good life. But that's that.
I just think it speaks a lot about someone who thinks someone is lying when someone they say they don't want a show dog, they want a pet/family member, they might be telling the truth.

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post #147 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-01-2015, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marykate View Post
This is why I have been one of those people who say "I don't want a show dog, I want a pet". That's what we wanted a family member for our home. We did research so we learned we needed a good breeder and were will to put in good money for a quality dog from a good line, which should reduce the chances of hereditary issues.
I have no interest in breeding dogs ever and that is not going to change. We didn't want to support a puppy mill so we never got a Doberman.
Maybe some day a Doberman will end up at our pound and we will adopt it, but they are not common here. We have a good home, He or she would have had a good life. But that's that.
I just think it speaks a lot about someone who thinks someone is lying when someone they say they don't want a show dog, they want a pet/family member, they might be telling the truth.

Bold, mine.

Um, I think you need to re-read, carefully.




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post #148 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 10:04 AM
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I did and this is what was written
"This is one of the most pervasive sentiments that puppy buyers, especially families, express when they're looking for a dog. What they really mean, of course, is that they don't want a show BREEDER – don't want to pay the high price they think show breeders charge, don't want to go through the often-invasive interview process, and think that they're getting a better deal or a real bargain because they can get a Lab for $300 or a Shepherd for $150.".
My point is that's not always what people mean. When I say it what I mean is I want a pet/family member. I can't go to the dog show so I am not interested in being a "show dog" owner. For me when I say it what I am saying is a good blood line with few hereditary issues but doesn't have to be the "show dog" prospect of the litter. The price was never an issue. It was odd how many breeders wanted to hold onto the rights of the dog, which were things we weren't looking for. Such as Breeding rights, we don't want to breed dogs or lose our dogs for a bit of time while they are at another's home away from our family.
It's just that not everyone is as open with communication or are more private with their home life. I think when they are turned away because they may be more private about their home or because they are more abrupt in their communication then they are prob turned away, next stop for them a puppy mill.
An example is me dad, he's a very straight forward person, he prob wouldn't call someone or email them about whose living in his home because he doesn't know them and he's not going to feel comfortable right off the bat. He instead gets his dogs from the pound and has never breed any dogs. He also would agree to the strings attached that comes with getting a dog from a breeder.
I just feel like there were a lot of assumptions of one sentence being said from someone they barely know. I am saying we wanted a show dog BREEDER and were willing to pay the high price for a pet, but it's odd to buy a dog that someone else retains so many rights to.
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post #149 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 10:24 AM
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I think you're over estimating how many rights the breeder has for pet quality dogs. Our dog is ours, not hers. I signed a contract stating I will take care of him for the rest of his life, otherwise he needs to go back to the breeder. He was also sold on limited registration. But that is it. She has no other 'claim' on my dog.

And yes, he came from a show breeder. His parents are both AKC champions.

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post #150 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-02-2015, 10:43 AM
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I wish that was the case but I know what was proposed to us. We met two breeders, we chose against one because we weren't sure that the European Dobermans were a good fit for our family. Not to say anything against the European line, they are beautiful, we just felt we didn't know enough about the European line. The other one wanted breeding rights, for us to cover all the vet bills on anything with the breeding, when we said we didn't want to breed (bf has breed dogs in past and he's over it) we were told that we would have to surrender here then when it was breeding time. Or when you feel a connection to a pup and your told, it's not a right fit for you and your family. Then you have to watch someone else get and raise that pup.
That's not what we were looking for what we wanted was a family member who wouldn't be leaving us for weeks.
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