"I don't want a show dog; I just want a pet." - Page 4 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #76 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 02:50 PM
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post #77 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaloric View Post
You can't factor in "showing costs". It's a hobby and not even remotely necessary (my personal opinion is that ribbon-chasing is detrimental to the breed).
I'm sorry but you just completely voided your argument for me right there.

Can so-called 'ribbon chasing' be detrimental? Yes it can. It can be abused like all things and all forms of judging that can be considered objective.

(One could use the German Shepherd as an example. And for horses you could use Impressive halter breeding in the American Quarter Horse and I know in my own breed of pony there are judges I won't even bother to show under because they wouldn't know breed type if it bit them).

But not even remotely necessary?

I'd have to disagree there.

It is necessary because otherwise without having an objective outside person looking at your animal and judging it and you stacking yourself up against other representatives of the breed well then you may as well be a backyard breeder who gushes about how their dog is a perfect example of the breed but has never shown it and never had to prove themselves.

And performance events and dog sports do not alone preserve breed type. Can they prove that form can follow function? Yes. But they are not set up to keep the breed standard and the breed resembling what it should look like.

Me personally I'm greedy. I want a doberman that looks like a doberman as well as one that can perform.

But if we focus on the later we lose the former.

And vice versa.

There has to be a balance.

And disregarding dog showing as merely 'ribbon chasing' just comes off as ignorant to me.
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post #78 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I sincerely wish that were true. Sometimes, it is. But what happens when your puppy eats a sock and has an obstruction surgery? Or the trip to the emergency vet after hours because your pup has horrific diarrhea? While a spay surgery isn't $2K, it's not cheap, either. Honestly, I don't make a lot of money. Saving up the price of a well-bred puppy was not easy. But if I can't do that, if I don't have enough to put away some each month for the cost of a puppy, how will I afford the dog food? The vet expenses? Training? If you have enough for that, you can save up for a pup. The problem isn't the cost, it's that people want a puppy NOW and they aren't willing to save for one, and they aren't willing to wait on a breeder's waiting list for a year. It's the "I want it now" mentality, not the cost.

Also, rescuing a dog is always an option. My rescue boy was an amazing dog and I miss him every day. His adoption fee wasn't much. However, he cost me a fair amount in vet bills, too. No dog is cheap.
I believe all of what you listed falls under an injury/health condition which I said could/would cost more than the cost of the puppy. I said the cost is the largest lump sum you have to pay if you don't incur any of these costs. So I'm missing the point of this post?
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post #79 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 03:21 PM
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[QUOTE=WindyPony;1635057]
Me personally I'm greedy. I want a doberman that looks like a doberman as well as one that can perform.
[QUOTE]

I also appologize, but you voided your arguement right there. Anytime you use "I" as the reasoning for your arguement it becomes invalid. If you want something that is great, good for you, but assuming that because that is how you want something everyone should want it the same is ignorant.
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post #80 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by the_discowhore View Post
And what's the big deal if someone DOES make money from a litter? I mean seriously, do we really want breeders being constantly in the red so that we can have amazing dogs? If my future breeder makes any sort of profit from me I will be pleased for them, they deserve it!
Ok, let me clear up what I have said as I believe people are taking it the wrong way. I never said breeders shouldn't make money, I never said $2,000+ was unreasonable. Apologies if I mistyped and it came off that way.

My posts were in response to the origional poster who was angry that people go out and buy the cheapest most readily available pet they can find.

My response was 1) people aren't necessarily searching for cheapest they are searching for affordable, and $2000+ isn't affordable to most american familiies. 2) If breeders want to stop people from going to BYB they should become part of the solution, scolding these buyers and telling them they are wrong doesn't fix the problem, lowering the prices of your dogs does. I was exploring if it was possible to lower the cost and still be reasonable. If a breeder chooses not to that is fine, but they can't complain if people buy cheaper puppies if they don't also offer cheaper puppies.

I'm simply addressing the first post that basically critizied people who want a "pet." If you want to end BYB I'm exploring solutions. If you would rather just say it's wrong and look down on those who do well then you aren't part of the solution.

Making a profit is fine, everyone has the right to make a profit. However, most organizations that do "good" are called non-profit organizations (yes i know this title is BS) but the idea is if you want to help a geater cause sometimes it puts a dent in your own pocket, buyer and seller.
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post #81 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by WindyPony View Post
But not even remotely necessary?

I'd have to disagree there.

It is necessary because otherwise without having an objective outside person looking at your animal and judging it and you stacking yourself up against other representatives of the breed well then you may as well be a backyard breeder who gushes about how their dog is a perfect example of the breed but has never shown it and never had to prove themselves.
It's the way it's done that makes it pretty goofy and fad-prone (rather than an absolute standard), overpromotes a tiny corner of the gene pool based on which sires enter into and win the most shows, and really just becomes a self-licking ice cream cone.

As I said, I'd think of it as more useful if it was required of breeding stock to be entered into the studbook, a certificate graded on the absolute standard, and not such a circus. More like the idea behind ZTP, not a competition, just a trial grading the dog against the ideal for basic breeding fitness.

Since it's not required and not reasonably easy & inexpensive to obtain, though, how many puppies have two parents with Ch? Maybe 5%? How many people lose in a show and then just keep entering into shows until they manage to be better than other dogs there, or simply go ahead and breed anyway, because only the winners take results seriously?

Heck, I wish it was the same in the horse world, but when showing gets so dysfunctional and far from the working side that you have an either/or situation (as was being discussed in that other topic floating around), then the breed loses.

Straying off-topic a bit, but that's why, until there's a universal necessity to have someone approve of conformaation, and it's a trial to pass and not a competition to "win", it'll continue to be completely optional and a hobby as far as I'm concerned.

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And performance events and dog sports do not alone preserve breed type. Can they prove that form can follow function? Yes. But they are not set up to keep the breed standard and the breed resembling what it should look like.
Agreed.
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post #82 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 03:44 PM
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I want to address a few topics being spoken on so sorry if this post jumps around.

First is the topic of what costs should you not include when pricing your puppies. Well it depends, what costs would you incure if you chose not to breed your dog?

1) Your dog? If you chose not to breed would you still have a dog? If they only reason you purchased a puppy was to breed then are you not in fact what you claim to dislike, a person who buys puppies to breed and not because they love them? I'm going to assume all good breeders love doberman and would have a doberman even if they weren't going to breed them. Thus the cost of your own puppy shouldn't be applied.

2) You keep a puppy from the litter. Should the cost of this puppy be passed along to others who purchase your puppy? If you are breeding to get the dog you want the arguement could be made that no costs should be associated with your litter because you have having it for yourself. You obviously can't keep all the puppies born (unless there is only 1) so you should be happy to find the rest of them good homes. Not saying they should be free, but saying you shouldn't use the cost of the litter to determine the cost of the puppies if you had the litter solely so you could get a dog bred the way you wanted.

3) Life style choices. This goes back to question 1. If you weren't breeding would you still have a doberman? I have a doberman and I'm not breeding him, he effects where I can live. Only 1 place in town would rent to me because he is a "dangerous dog" at a rate of $1300 a month for a 1 bedroom. If I didn't have a dog or had a smaller dog I could easily find a 1 BR for $300/mo. Having a dog affects the decisions you make in life, your choice to have a dog shouldn't be passed along to those who buy your puppies, because you would have to live in a similar situation anyways. In fact I researched plenty of breeders who required buyers to have a large fenced yard to buy their dogs, whether breeding or not. It's silly to think breeders can pass along this cost.

4) Training/Competing. Again, we are back to, are you only doing this so you can breed your dog? I took my puppy through training, we are looking at competing in the protection sport, he is neutered so obviously no breeding in the future. These are choices I'm making for 1) the betterment of my dog and 2) because I enjoy doing things with my dog. If you enjoy showing and would do it without breeding these cost's shouldn't be included.

5) Titling. I just want to touch on this. I saw a person post that "I want a dog that conforms to breed standards and that is why I title." That is great, you know what you want. Most people want a doberman and don't care if he/she doesn't meet breed standard perfectly, most people purchasing for pets don't even know breed standard. If they are an inch to short or 10 lbs to heavy it doesn't bother most people, it tends to only bother people who show because it means they can't show them. Assuming every person that wants a doberman wants them all to look identical is incorrect. Also, on WendyPony's post which is addressed above, who cares about an outside opinion on prove your dog is "perfect." Last I checked breeders all see their dogs differently. The breeder I purchased from preferred her dobermans faces to look a certain way vs another way, both were within breed standard. I looked at the two types of faces and could barely see a different but it was majorly important to her. Most buyers will not notice a difference in the nuaces of the breed unless its very obvious (size and weight for example). Let the buyer decide if your dog is beautiful and if they want a dog that looks like yours. That is how most consumers will decide which puppy to buy, not because some referee said yours is prettier than someone elses.

Now all that being said. As a breeder. If someone said, I only purchased a dog because I want to sell puppies, I only title so I can charge more for the puppies, and I moved into a big house so I can have a big yard so my dog can stay outside 24/7 what would you say. You would probably say this is a terrible breeder. Well if you pass along all these costs to the consumer that is basically what you are saying, the only reason you have a dog is to breed the dog, and we have been advised from reputable breeders not to buy from people like this.

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post #83 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 03:47 PM
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I wouldn't do breed showing with my dog if I wasn't going to breed it, in fact you couldn't pay me to show a non-breeding dog LOL


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post #84 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Because I actually care about longevity, and thought that maybe I could do something about it by waiting to breed most of my bitches until they are 4 or 5, giving them more time to show me possible problems so that I may remove them from the gene pool.

I'm breeding bitches that are older than 16 months when bybs usually start breeding.

I'm also trying to breed to older males whenever possible, again for the sake of longevity.

In my case, there is a sacrifice of fertility, I think. My larger, "normal" litters came when I bred girls that were 3.

kaloric wants longevity to improve, it seems from his posts. He also wants people to avoid popular sires, something else I try to do. But then comes the inevitable criticism about price from people who just don't understand what it costs to try to do the right things.
Okay, that's a fair explanation, I'm sorry I assumed too much regarding your bitches' infertility issues.

Since that's the reason you're not making a reasonable profit, I hope you're describing your strategy to potential buyers and adjusting your prices at least a little accordingly? Because yes, that is a VERY valid reason to be in a different circle as far as breeding goes.

Making efforts in that area is a significant and costly added value, and it is worth a premium price, as far as I'm concerned. You don't have to profit on everything, that's not going to happen, but an average profit across all is a reasonable goal.

But I still disagree on expensing-out living arrangements.
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post #85 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by justduff3324 View Post
I want to address a few topics being spoken on so sorry if this post jumps around.

1) What can be included in the cost of a puppy?

Here is what I think. What costs would you incur if you were not going to breed your dog?
I am too long-winded. Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed it in one sentence.

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post #86 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Here is something else that most don't think about.

Dobermans take up space. Breeders can't live in tiny, inexpensive houses or apartments. We generally have to buy homes with space and with property, so we have to spend more to live in order to be breeders. I can't live where I want because I can't legally have my dogs there any longer. We have to seek out counties or townships where we can legally be, and that usually means a longer commute and more gas/higher cost for us to get to our real jobs - it's not like there is public transportation out here. I literally live in an area where I don't want to so that I can continue to have my dogs and be a breeder. That often means higher property taxes for breeders, too.

And then we have to buy vehicles in which to transport dogs and puppies around. We might want a little vehicle that is great on mileage, but our dogs won't fit in them. The vehicles cost us more and the insurance probably costs us more. There are times I'm taking 4 or 5 dogs to a vet at a time, not like the usual pet owner travelling with one dog.

It's stuff like that which many of you also don't take into account.
Please see my above post .
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post #87 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by the_discowhore View Post
I wouldn't do breed showing with my dog if I wasn't going to breed it, in fact you couldn't pay me to show a non-breeding dog LOL
So then why show? If breeders lose money or barely break even this doesn't make any sense.
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post #88 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kaloric View Post
It's the way it's done that makes it pretty goofy and fad-prone (rather than an absolute standard), overpromotes a tiny corner of the gene pool based on which sires enter into and win the most shows, and really just becomes a self-licking ice cream cone.

As I said, I'd think of it as more useful if it was required of breeding stock to be entered into the studbook, a certificate graded on the absolute standard, and not such a circus. More like the idea behind ZTP, not a competition, just a trial grading the dog against the ideal for basic breeding fitness.

Since it's not required and not reasonably easy & inexpensive to obtain, though, how many puppies have two parents with Ch? Maybe 5%? How many people lose in a show and then just keep entering into shows until they manage to be better than other dogs there, or simply go ahead and breed anyway, because only the winners take results seriously?

Heck, I wish it was the same in the horse world, but when showing gets so dysfunctional and far from the working side that you have an either/or situation (as was being discussed in that other topic floating around), then the breed loses.

Straying off-topic a bit, but that's why, until there's a universal necessity to have someone approve of conformaation, and it's a trial to pass and not a competition to "win", it'll continue to be completely optional and a hobby as far as I'm concerned.
.
Because (to me and many others at least) showing isn't the end all be all as far as breeding decisions go. Just because a dog finishes doesn't mean it should be bred. As a buyer, it is one's responsibility to decide if they think the breeder is doing right by breeding their dog or just breeding because they have a "CH" before their name. Obviously JQP won't know better, but that's why we educate.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justduff3324 View Post
I believe all of what you listed falls under an injury/health condition which I said could/would cost more than the cost of the puppy. I said the cost is the largest lump sum you have to pay if you don't incur any of these costs. So I'm missing the point of this post?
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Ok, let me clear up what I have said as I believe people are taking it the wrong way. I never said breeders shouldn't make money, I never said $2,000+ was unreasonable. Apologies if I mistyped and it came off that way.

My posts were in response to the origional poster who was angry that people go out and buy the cheapest most readily available pet they can find.

My response was 1) people aren't necessarily searching for cheapest they are searching for affordable, and $2000+ isn't affordable to most american familiies. 2) If breeders want to stop people from going to BYB they should become part of the solution, scolding these buyers and telling them they are wrong doesn't fix the problem, lowering the prices of your dogs does. I was exploring if it was possible to lower the cost and still be reasonable. If a breeder chooses not to that is fine, but they can't complain if people buy cheaper puppies if they don't also offer cheaper puppies.

I'm simply addressing the first post that basically critizied people who want a "pet." If you want to end BYB I'm exploring solutions. If you would rather just say it's wrong and look down on those who do well then you aren't part of the solution.

Making a profit is fine, everyone has the right to make a profit. However, most organizations that do "good" are called non-profit organizations (yes i know this title is BS) but the idea is if you want to help a geater cause sometimes it puts a dent in your own pocket, buyer and seller.
I think you missed the entire point of the original post about why it's important to buy from quality breeders.

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Since it's not required and not reasonably easy & inexpensive to obtain, though, how many puppies have two parents with Ch? Maybe 5%?
Are you saying only 5% of puppies from reputable breeders are from two Champion parents? Because I think you are way, way off, there.


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post #90 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I think you missed the entire point of the original post about why it's important to buy from quality breeders.



Are you saying only 5% of puppies from reputable breeders are from two Champion parents? Because I think you are way, way off, there.
I'm trying not to be long winded althought being brief can leave out important details.

Tell me if you read it differently but the origional poster was basically saying if you want a doberman who looks and acts like a doberman then you should go though a qualified breeder who has experts confirm that their dog is a doberman.

I do not disagree with this statement.

The origional poster all states that they believe people buy cheap doberman because they want a deal.

I was arguing against this point. Not everyone wants a deal, but people probably want what is affordable. If they simply can't afford $2,000 it doesn't matter how much they want quality they can't afford it. And at the end of the day they want a dog. They will buy a BYB dog rather than have no dog.

My point was if you want to stop people going to BYB then if you can make the breed more affordable you will allow more to buy quality dogs who want them.

If your dog costs more than a car then you can't be mad when people buy a BYB dog.
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post #91 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaloric View Post
You can't factor in "showing costs". It's a hobby and not even remotely necessary (my personal opinion is that ribbon-chasing is detrimental to the breed). Now, if it meant more as a fundamental breeding-fitness examination like the ZTP, THAT would be a breeding-related business expense.



You can't factor in lifestyle choices or things you mostly use personally. I have land, I have outbuildings, I have larger vehicles which are almost certainly larger than most dog breeders, since horses are my hobby/lifestyle choice. And actually, the costs of my lifestyle choices are kind of lower than most of the alternatives.

As for health testing expenses, it sure might be nice to eliminate some of those if more folks were to focus more on longevity and health, rather than show ribbons as breeding qualifications. But even as things sit, most folks are probably paying too much. Don't dog people have co-ops to get your occasional-use things from on the cheap? Don't you ever get together and schedule your vet needs as a group so you can negotiate prices down? Have you ever asked a vet for any sort of professional or bulk discount? A litter's worth of ear crops should be substantially cheaper each than a one-off.


.
I think titles are important on breeding stock. We will just have to disagree on this.

Again, disagree on land, facilities and rolling stock. I have a small hobby horse farm and do factor that into pricing. Pretty darn hard to raise horses or dogs such as Dobermans without decent facilities, that is if one is doing a good job of it. Furthermore breeders need to set a good example for their puppy buyers with having the proper facilities.

Regarding health many of the good breeders are looking hard at overall health and longevity. At least both of the breeders of my two dogs do and both are getting quite a few on the longevity lists. Addressing the cost of health testing, cardio clinics are not held on every street corner. Often times it would be more costly traveling to a clinic than just paying the going rate.

While I disagree with you, you’re free to express your own opinions on the matter just as I am mine. Moreover, none of these reputable breeders have a gun to your head begging you to buy a puppy from them. There are plenty of us puppy buyers out there who think the reputable breeders are more than fair in their pricing. In my opinion if the reputable breeders raised their prices a full $1,000 per puppy they still would have plenty of fully vetted and qualified homes.

When chatting with one of my breeders a couple of years back when she had a litter of 9 on the ground, she was selling 8 pups and keeping one, she told me that she had an additional 12 people that had qualified for further vetting from her initial puppy questionnaire, which is quite extensive in itself. That was 12 additional people who wanted a puppy who were not getting one!

The other thing that you are not factoring in, is the breeders who have been at it for a while have quite a few repeat buyers who normally are given at least some priority on any given litter. When I purchased my girl Tara, half of the litter went to repeat buyers.

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post #92 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 05:17 PM
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Are you saying only 5% of puppies from reputable breeders are from two Champion parents? Because I think you are way, way off, there.
All puppies in the breed, in general. I'd assume that the greatest percentage have one Ch parent (usually a sire, because that's where a lot of folks try to get their return, and it's why there's a problem with Popular Sire Syndrome), and some have none at all, whether working lines or BYB lines.

I could be way off, here. Does the AKC provide these sorts of statistics?
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post #93 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 05:24 PM
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There are plenty of us puppy buyers out there who think the reputable breeders are more than fair in their pricing. In my opinion if the reputable breeders raised their prices a full $1,000 per puppy they still would have plenty of fully vetted and qualified homes.
Well, that's my point. Pricing to the market is fair, and I don't want a "deal", I like "value". If it's there, I prefer to pay a fair price for the value, otherwise I feel like I'm taking advantage of someone. A fair price is fair to both the buyer and seller.

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My point was if you want to stop people going to BYB then if you can make the breed more affordable you will allow more to buy quality dogs who want them.

If your dog costs more than a car then you can't be mad when people buy a BYB dog.
I guess that's a fair point too. There are all levels of breeder, some will have entry-level pricing and not necessarily be BYBs. I don't think "pay what you can afford/think it's worth" pricing for puppies would be for any breeder who isn't ridiculously wealthy, but that seems to be all the rage with products these days.

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post #94 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 06:52 PM
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Well, that's my point. Pricing to the market is fair, and I don't want a "deal", I like "value". If it's there, I prefer to pay a fair price for the value, otherwise I feel like I'm taking advantage of someone. A fair price is fair to both the buyer and seller.

I guess that's a fair point too. There are all levels of breeder, some will have entry-level pricing and not necessarily be BYBs. I don't think "pay what you can afford/think it's worth" pricing for puppies would be for any breeder who isn't ridiculously wealthy, but that seems to be all the rage with products these days.
But, where do you draw the line? My mother thinks it's a shame to pay more than $50 for a dog, and WON'T pay more than $150. There are no breeds out there that cheap from reputable breeders. There are folks that don't think they should pay for a dog at all and complain about small shelter adoption fees. There are people who pay $5 for a puppy out of the newspaper. Sometimes, that's all people can afford, or are willing to pay. Do we pander to them, as well? Most breeds are at least a couple hundred, if not thousand.


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post #95 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 07:07 PM
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4) Training/Competing. Again, we are back to, are you only doing this so you can breed your dog? I took my puppy through training, we are looking at competing in the protection sport, he is neutered so obviously no breeding in the future. These are choices I'm making for 1) the betterment of my dog and 2) because I enjoy doing things with my dog. If you enjoy showing and would do it without breeding these cost's shouldn't be included.

5) Titling. I just want to touch on this. I saw a person post that "I want a dog that conforms to breed standards and that is why I title." That is great, you know what you want. Most people want a doberman and don't care if he/she doesn't meet breed standard perfectly, most people purchasing for pets don't even know breed standard. If they are an inch to short or 10 lbs to heavy it doesn't bother most people, it tends to only bother people who show because it means they can't show them. Assuming every person that wants a doberman wants them all to look identical is incorrect. Also, on WendyPony's post which is addressed above, who cares about an outside opinion on prove your dog is "perfect." Last I checked breeders all see their dogs differently. The breeder I purchased from preferred her dobermans faces to look a certain way vs another way, both were within breed standard. I looked at the two types of faces and could barely see a different but it was majorly important to her. Most buyers will not notice a difference in the nuaces of the breed unless its very obvious (size and weight for example). Let the buyer decide if your dog is beautiful and if they want a dog that looks like yours. That is how most consumers will decide which puppy to buy, not because some referee said yours is prettier than someone elses.
Yes breeders may all see their dogs differently. Yes people may have different likes and dislikes or attributes within the breed. Slight deviations.

But guess what? A breed standard exists for a reason.

And breeders - the good ones at least. Do their best to uphold the standards to their ability. To conform to it and hope that each litter is better than the last. Is there ever going to be a perfect dog? No. But the good ones are striving uphold the standard.

Breeders are the preservers of a breed. (And yes I know we can all fall prey to fads and whims and what's popular).

And in regards to John Q Public not caring.

It's good that John Q Public doesn't care.

John Q Public shouldn't HAVE to care if they are going with a reputable breeder who has the best interests of the breed at heart.

Because John Q Public wants a doberman right?

Was drawn to the breed for certain reasons right?

And going with a reputable breeder will fulfill those reasons. He won't have to worry that he'll get a Doberman that is riddled with preventable health problems or with an unsound temperament.

But alternately John Q Public not caring and not being informed and going with bad breeders leads to being taken advantage of. Puppy millers and backyard breeders who breed 'Warlock,' 'Superior Size' 'King' whathaveyou Dobermans. Myths of Euros look a certain way vs. American lines look another way. It's why Kimbertal can continue to churn out puppy after puppy and rescues be flooded with its byproducts.

A judge is not some 'referee' most are breeders themselves and have gone through years of study and training to become certified to be able to judge. You acting flippant is not helping yourself at all.

But who cares right? I mean it's only the prettiest dog who wins after all.

I'm pretty sure there's a term for what you're espousing and it's called 'kennel-blindess.'
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post #96 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 07:10 PM
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I personally don't think that lowering prices will do a whole lot to stop BYB's. BYB's make a profit by cutting corners. No health testing, no stud fee, no ear crop, often no real pre-natal vet care for the bitch. Certainly, there are some cases where price will influence a buyer, but a large majority of the people that purchase from BYB's do so because they do not know any better.

Not only do they not know much about the breed, they haven't a clue how to find a breeder. Mr & Mrs GP do not know what DPCA is or that it even exists. Most pet buyers have only seen dog shows on Television, and wouldn't have a clue how to find a dog show in their area.

So.... they google and what comes up are loads of BYB's or Commercial Breeders. Most choose a breeder closest to them and go from there.

IMO, a good way to put a dent in the BYB business is for reputable breeders to advertise in some of these same places. (Hobbly, Puppyfind, etc.) While they are advertising their dogs, they could then also provide some basic information about the breed and health issues, and......

This won't put BYB's out of business, as you are still going to have those that want a "cheap" puppy. However, there are many intelligent, educated people that simply do not have a clue, because dogs are not their life and they do things just like their parents did when they were kids. But, they will see/read this information and they will begin to research, they will learn and they won't go to a BYB.

Were people better informed, and reputable breeders easier to find, they would be much more likely to purchase from a "good" breeder.

JMHO.


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post #97 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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I'm trying not to be long winded althought being brief can leave out important details.

Tell me if you read it differently but the origional poster was basically saying if you want a doberman who looks and acts like a doberman then you should go though a qualified breeder who has experts confirm that their dog is a doberman.

I do not disagree with this statement.

The origional poster all states that they believe people buy cheap doberman because they want a deal.

I was arguing against this point. Not everyone wants a deal, but people probably want what is affordable. If they simply can't afford $2,000 it doesn't matter how much they want quality they can't afford it. And at the end of the day they want a dog. They will buy a BYB dog rather than have no dog.

My point was if you want to stop people going to BYB then if you can make the breed more affordable you will allow more to buy quality dogs who want them.

If your dog costs more than a car then you can't be mad when people buy a BYB dog.
I will reiterate what I said on page one, I think. If you cannot (or refuse to) afford a puppy from a good breeder, then you can adopt from a rescue or shelter. You are setting up a false dichotomy between good breeder and backyard breeder. The real choice is ethical (good breeder or rescue or shelter) or unethical (backyard breeder or puppymill). I can, in fact, be upset when people know better and still choose to line the pockets of the people who are destroying our breed. I understand that many people do NOT know better, and I do my best to educate them. Our girl is not from a good breeder (not that I spent any less on her than I did on our pup), but I did not know how to find a good breeder. Now that I know better, I make the ethical choice. Our next dog was a fantastic boy from a rescue, and our new pup is from an amazing breeder who is doing everything she can to produce fantastic, versatile, long-lived, healthy dogs.

Money is not an excuse for making unethical decisions, and breeders will not fix the backyard breeder problem by reducing prices.

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I personally don't think that lowering prices will do a whole lot to stop BYB's. BYB's make a profit by cutting corners. No health testing, no stud fee, no ear crop, often no real pre-natal vet care for the bitch. Certainly, there are some cases where price will influence a buyer, but a large majority of the people that purchase from BYB's do so because they do not know any better.

Not only do they not know much about the breed, they haven't a clue how to find a breeder. Mr & Mrs GP do not know what DPCA is or that it even exists. Most pet buyers have only seen dog shows on Television, and wouldn't have a clue how to find a dog show in their area.

So.... they google and what comes up are loads of BYB's or Commercial Breeders. Most choose a breeder closest to them and go from there.

IMO, a good way to put a dent in the BYB business is for reputable breeders to advertise in some of these same places. (Hobbly, Puppyfind, etc.) While they are advertising their dogs, they could then also provide some basic information about the breed and health issues, and......

This won't put BYB's out of business, as you are still going to have those that want a "cheap" puppy. However, there are many intelligent, educated people that simply do not have a clue, because dogs are not their life and they do things just like their parents did when they were kids. But, they will see/read this information and they will begin to research, they will learn and they won't go to a BYB.

Were people better informed, and reputable breeders easier to find, they would be much more likely to purchase from a "good" breeder.

JMHO.
I think Shelly's right. Most people don't know how to find great breeders, or, really more basically, they don't know that there are different types of breeders. I have found that people who learn, and really understand the difference, are willing to either wait and save and find a way to get a pup from a great breeder, or they make the choice to rescue instead.


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post #98 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 07:47 PM
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Were people better informed, and reputable breeders easier to find, they would be much more likely to purchase from a "good" breeder.

JMHO.
Very well-said. I do think it would help to see them advertising side by side so everyone can do comparison shopping, it would certainly offer some insight into all the things the worst BYBs simply aren't doing for someone who doesn't have the first clue about buying a puppy, and maybe make BYBs work a bit harder to keep-up.
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post #99 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 08:19 PM
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I will reiterate what I said on page one, I think. If you cannot (or refuse to) afford a puppy from a good breeder, then you can adopt from a rescue or shelter. You are setting up a false dichotomy between good breeder and backyard breeder. The real choice is ethical (good breeder or rescue or shelter) or unethical (backyard breeder or puppymill). I can, in fact, be upset when people know better and still choose to line the pockets of the people who are destroying our breed. I understand that many people do NOT know better, and I do my best to educate them. Our girl is not from a good breeder (not that I spent any less on her than I did on our pup), but I did not know how to find a good breeder. Now that I know better, I make the ethical choice. Our next dog was a fantastic boy from a rescue, and our new pup is from an amazing breeder who is doing everything she can to produce fantastic, versatile, long-lived, healthy dogs.

Money is not an excuse for making unethical decisions, and breeders will not fix the backyard breeder problem by reducing prices.



I think Shelly's right. Most people don't know how to find great breeders, or, really more basically, they don't know that there are different types of breeders. I have found that people who learn, and really understand the difference, are willing to either wait and save and find a way to get a pup from a great breeder, or they make the choice to rescue instead.
I will agree with the points that most people don't know about the BYB problem. I wasn't aware until I did research, mostly through finding this forum. I also agree that lack of education is a problem with all animals in general, BYB exists for all animals and people still don't know about it.

I disagree with the other points. I do agree that the ethical decision is to rescue or find a good breeder. I disagree that this drives the motivation of all people. Will this influence some people? yes of course. Expecting all people to be ethical? That's a losing fight. My point is if you actually want to stop the BYB/puppymill problem you can't rely on ethics, it just doesn't work.

Also, you have the problem of supply and demand. Currently, all good breeders sell all their puppies, and often have to tell people "sorry I don't have enough puppies for you" and have waiting lists. If you took all the people who buy BYB or Puppymill dogs and added them to these lists the waiting list would be years long. People simply aren't going to wait that long. Is it the ethical thing to do? again yes. Is it the route most people take? No.

If you tell someone they have to wait a year to get a puppy (most waiting lists of professional breeders) they struggle with the choice, increase this to 3+ years, they will be searching for another option.

I'm not debating ethics. I'm trying to state that if you want to fight the problem you have to find solutions that people will accept, if you stand on moral grounds you won't change much.
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post #100 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 08:28 PM
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I think Shelly's right. Most people don't know how to find great breeders, or, really more basically, they don't know that there are different types of breeders. I have found that people who learn, and really understand the difference, are willing to either wait and save and find a way to get a pup from a great breeder, or they make the choice to rescue instead.
^^^^^^^^^^ I can attest to the truth of this statement^^^^^^^^^
I have had many AKC registered dogs over the years some from championship lines and a couple from titled parents..... I did not know the darn difference, the cost was never really an issue with me. I had no idea there even was such a thing as a puppymiller other than those who sold to pet shops where I would never buy one from.

I was fortunate, My GSD lived to be 14 and then she got cancer, my Cocker Spaniel lived to be just over 15, my Collie lived to 12 (both poisoned), my beagle lived to be over 21, and my Rottie lived to 10 and we had to have him put down due to hip dysplasia. I saw where all these dogs came from but never did I google them (there was no such thing) and I was usually just pointed to the breeder by someone who had gotten a dog from them. The Beagle was sort of a rescue because he had epilepsy and couldn't hunt.

Even Oscar was not really researched much, just a recommendation from a friend of my son in law. Duece was searched for and that turned out very badly, which was what motivated me to educate myself. Hopefully with a clearer picture of what an ethical breeder looks like we will always make better decisions through due diligence. I also agree that good breeders should advertize on the usual sites even if only for future litters because a little educating of John Q could probably really put a dent in the BYBs.
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