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Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #51 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 09:54 AM
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Meadowcat has the right of it.

justduff, let me give you a little perspective. i purchased a well-bred boy out of two Triadel dogs. he was the littlest of his litter, and as a result he wasn't quite fully developed. after various vet visits for accidents and whatnot - almost all of which were covered by VPI - he ended up in kidney failure at 10.5 months of age.

that was back in December. VPI covered none of it, and I just finished paying for his bills last month. diagnosis at two different hospitals (our local vet and U Penn) and support care for a week cost us $5000 out of our own pocket. thankfully, we went through a good breeder who gave us emotional support and refunded the purchase price. this allowed me to pay off the remainder of his vet bills.

a BYB will not provide any sort of refund, and probably won't provide any sort of emotional support in the event of the loss of the dog. they usually wash their hands of the pup once it's no longer in their possession. i can't imagine going through that with a bad breeder. can you?
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post #52 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
Meadowcat has the right of it.

a BYB will not provide any sort of refund, and probably won't provide any sort of emotional support in the event of the loss of the dog. they usually wash their hands of the pup once it's no longer in their possession. i can't imagine going through that with a bad breeder. can you?
I can indeed imagine it and could no doubt write a book on it. My son bought Duece from a breeder in Georgia based on a beautiful picture of puppies and a great web site. The "reputable breeder" would never ever ship one of his dogs and insisted on hand delivering him so he could do a home check, before allowing just anyone to to get one of "his babies" and my son did not have to pay for the pup until it arrived. Sounds good right? This guy made it clear that if he did not like what he saw he would not leave the pup.

I knew the moment I saw this guy that it was bad.... Dude had a small car full of pups of several different breeds and was for all intents and purposes a traveling puppymiller. But since he was being so magnanimous as to allow my 21 year old son to get one of his great pups given our "small yard" I kept my mouth shut and let my son do his thing. I have regretted it ever since.

Duece had CDA, dancing dobermans, vWD affected, Cryptorchidism, and was diagnosed with DCM and CHF by 2 years old..... When this "reputable breeder" was contacted he really wanted to make this whole thing right (are you ready?) by breeding Duece back to his own Mother and giving my son pick of the litter.
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post #53 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 11:40 AM
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Another thing that often happens in breedings amongst breeders are co-ownerships with each other, and even if you have a litter you might owe another breeder one or two puppies or whatever the terms of your agreement might be. I've had 4 litters that way, and I didn't receive the proceeds from ALL of the puppies. Now, I guess you can say hey, that's my fault, I got into that agreement and knew it was going to happen.

I've had 11 litters since 1996. I can honestly say I made a little money on ONE of those litters. I've lost on every other one, sometimes quite a lot of money. The little that I made on the one litter surely came nowhere close to covering all of the other losses.

It's easy to sit there and say that if you're a breeder producing puppies, you must be making money. If you're not doing it, you just don't know. From a business standpoint, I should be out of business. Real businesses don't operate at a loss as long as breeders do. We do it because we love it or because we're idiots, I'm not really sure which some days! And it's always a real treat when someone comes along and tells us we should reduce our already losing price and lose some more. It really makes one feel warm and appreciated. Not.

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post #54 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 11:51 AM
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Here is something else that most don't think about.

Dobermans take up space. Breeders can't live in tiny, inexpensive houses or apartments. We generally have to buy homes with space and with property, so we have to spend more to live in order to be breeders. I can't live where I want because I can't legally have my dogs there any longer. We have to seek out counties or townships where we can legally be, and that usually means a longer commute and more gas/higher cost for us to get to our real jobs - it's not like there is public transportation out here. I literally live in an area where I don't want to so that I can continue to have my dogs and be a breeder. That often means higher property taxes for breeders, too.

And then we have to buy vehicles in which to transport dogs and puppies around. We might want a little vehicle that is great on mileage, but our dogs won't fit in them. The vehicles cost us more and the insurance probably costs us more. There are times I'm taking 4 or 5 dogs to a vet at a time, not like the usual pet owner travelling with one dog.

It's stuff like that which many of you also don't take into account.


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post #55 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialK View Post
I just want to say that I, for one, have no problem with good breeders making some profit. Now, if they were living in a million dollar mansion and flying off for vacations in the Cayman Islands every other month, that would be a little much.

I'm just saying that, like Fitzmar has been saying, we are paying for a lot more than just the puppy. We are also getting all of the breeder's time, expertise, support and flat out love for the breed. They are not getting rich. I have been to my breeder's house, and over the years there have been changes made, but even those changes are all for the dogs.

If my few hundred "extra" dollars (if they happen to be extra that litter) help offset some costs of other litters, so that my breeder can continue to try to improve the breed I love, well then I am A-OK with that! I think she deserves it.
^^ This ^^
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post #56 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 12:45 PM
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This is from another forum which coincidentally is having a similar conversation, I thought it was a very good answer:

"Whenever this discussion comes up there seems to be a real blur in the lines between what is and is not acceptable expenses when trying to decide if someone makes money breeding.

Can you make money on a single litter? If all you take into account is the specific expenses for that litter, ie stud fee, pregnancy/pup related vet costs, food bill, you have a good sized litter, they are healthy, they sell easily, etc then yes, of course you can make a profit on that litter. And that is where the people who want to believe all breeders are "making it big" want to come from. They want to pretend any other costs, such as the purchase of the mother, training, titles, health checks, etc to make the pups actually worth buying for the price you are asking, marketing, follow up, replacement costs for any pups with issues down the road, "fixing" a pup that is returned all f'd up, etc doesn't exist and can't be counted against the profit made on the litter. Nor can the loss on that last litter where the breeder spent thousands on an AI, there were complications, a few more thousand on vet bills, and in the end barely saved their female. Or lost her.

Look at things from an even bigger picture though, and you have to take into account the following when deciding if someone is making money breeding. If it's a business, then all your business expenses should be counted. And I'm not touching on every single thing, just a few main categories.

1) purchase of the dogs used in the program
2) money lost when a dog held back or purchased doesn't pan out (initial cost, food bills, vet bills, training bills, trial bills, etc) or dies, or is stolen by that co-owner you thought you could trust, or ...
3) the costs on all the litters that didn't work out (bitch didn't take, complications that resulted in large vet bills, litters that died, etc)
4) costs to maintain (feed, vet, train, title, etc) the dogs used in the program (pups didn't come out of thin air and the titles, health checks etc contribute to the sale price of the pups)
5) the down the road costs, ie time spent supporting a buyer, cost in replacing a dog, $ spend fixing a dog who is returned all f'd up by the buyer etc

There are more costs, but these are some of the main categories. Some people will argue "but you would have done all that anyway for your hobby". Reality is most breeders I know, who breed on any sort of regular basis, would not own and maintain the number of dogs they have if they weren't breeding. They would have 1-3 dogs that they were training/competing with for their hobby, they wouldn't have 5, 10, 15, etc dogs and the thousands of dollars in vet, food, training, etc bills that come with those dogs.

IMO there are 3 ways to make money breeding dogs

1) breed responsibly but in high enough quantity that the good outweighs the bad, and the small profit from most of the litters, combined with doing a lot of litters, adds up to be a large enough profit to actually talk about. This is how some of the breeders in Europe do it (some of the bigger name ones) and a few in the US also do it.
2) have a female that is mainly your pet/competition dog, ie you are a hobbyist who does all the training, trialing, etc, and you decide to do a litter, which works out without major complications. Which the majority of litters do.
3) don't bother with most of the expenses part of things, ie the health checks, training, trialing, take short cuts on vet care or skip it all together, feed crap food, and pup out puppies. Also your selection criteria is strictly the dogs ability to whelp and raise litters successfully, so soon you have a number of good (from a strictly it can be born and raised POV) producers. Since they skip all the up front costs their price per pup will (should) be a little lower, but their profit margin will be much higher."
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post #57 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justduff3324 View Post
I knew my post would be controversial so let me respond.

First, I never said people aren't willing to pay for quality, I said they can't. Most people don't have $2,000+ to spend on anything, a car/dog/loans. If you let people pay for your dog on credit maybe this would be a different story. Also, I didn't say you had to undercut backyard breeders, I said be competitive.

Second, realize 1) I'm not a breeder and 2) I'm trying to introduce how most American's are approaching purchasing a dog. We live in a society of "this is what I want and I will get what I want." If people want a Doberman, they will buy one they can afford, they won't get a breed they don't want because it's "the right thing to do." People don't even purchase dogs to match their life style, plenty of active dogs are purchased by owners who are to lazy to walk them simply because they want that breed.

Third, a very smart business person told me "if price is the issue it is the only issue." This means people aren't going to listen to your points of "if you don't buy quality now you might pay extra in the future" if they can't afford the quality now. Back to the car example, everyone wants a BMW, Audi, or other luxury car but they can't afford it, so they buy something else.

Forth, most people won't believe you don't make money on selling a puppy for 2k. Let me explain my thought process as a non-breeder and having no knowledge of breeding as to show how others view this.

1) cost of blood testing, lets say this is $1,000. I would think you only need to test a dog once, so if you dog has 8 litters, and 6 dogs per litter, that would be $20.83 per puppy.

2) cost of a male stud (if you don't use your own). I've heard this can be ball-parked at $1500 per litter depending on the stud. Comes out to $250/puppy.

3) Ears/Tail/Vet. I did a search on this forum and the median price was about $300/puppy.

4) Vet for mother. No idea on this one but lets say it's $500. $83.33/puppy

5) Food. Most puppies leave for their homes between 8-10 weeks. I would guess 70 lbs of dog food would last a litter this long. 70 lbs costs me about $150, so $25/puppy.

6) Misc. The total from above is $679.16. Lets round it up to $800 per puppy.

Now for where breeders/consumers will disagree. The cost of showing and and other training. I have no idea of the price of this as it will vary from breeder to breeder, I'm sure it can exceed $10,000 per dog. As a breeder you incorporate the cost of this into your puppies.

Now as a consumer I might have a problem with this. This is not a direct cost of breeding your dog, testing it for genetic defects, etc. This is your hobby, you enjoy doing this, and you want the people who purchase your puppies to pay for your hobby. If the only reason you show is to increase the price of the puppies you sell then you aren't selling "pets" you are selling "show dogs."

I'm just trying to bring a different perspective to the forum. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what I've said above. The point I'm trying to make is if you want to solve the problem, your solution has to address the issue. If the issue is price, then your reasoning about quality or bettering the breed doesn't apply. People who are purchasing a pet care about these as much as they want a pet. If you give them a choice of "purchase a lower quality dog you can afford" or "purchase a breed you don't want b/c you can't afford mind" they are going to go with option one almost every time.
Are you flipping Kidding me?!? You just put my panties in a bunch here as I have a litter right now. My electric bill ALONE jumped to 450.00 each month for the past now 3 months! My water and sanitation has doubled too. I buy more cleaning supplies to keep laundry, toys and their living areas clean. I have missed at least 2.5 - 3 weeks total in work. I start at 6 am and go till 11:30 -12pm. I work and have a family and have my dogs. I start my day with taking care of my beloved Dobermans and end it the same way. I go home at lunch each day to care for them. My gas has more than doubled. When you have a litter you have to go above and beyond what anyone one even considers. Heck a box of Zonas tape alone costs 16 to 25.00 on my 3rd box now. A box does not last long when you have 7 puppies. I have been feeding 1, 37.5 bag of Pro plan a week sense I have weaned these guys along with raw meat, yogurt, Goats milk and vitamins. I use pine pellet bedding that 5.99 a bag the huge box they are in uses 3 bags every 2-3 days. I can keep going and going. YOU DONT MAKE MONEY OFF A LITTER. May break even from time to time but that is even rare these days but you dont make money when you do it right. My family understands when I have a litter things change and even they get put on the back burner.
I take pride in my Dobermans and work myself to total exhaustion when I have a litter. And I love every minute of it. It is a passion that we as breeders have to consistently strive to improve. AS only it should be when breeding a litter.
So when you say what you did it lite me up. If you dont know do NOT ASSUME. Cause you know what happens when you ASSUME.

And I do not charge as most respected breeders would agree with me on this, WE DO NOT CHARGE MORE THAN WE OURSELVES WOULD PAY FOR A DOBERMAN.

Any spelling mistakes and grammar are mine as I was mifted

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post #58 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialK View Post
I just want to say that I, for one, have no problem with good breeders making some profit.
Not only this, but I would honestly have trouble trusting someone who is unable to turn a profit at some of the "reputable breeder" prices these days.

There are plenty of "what-ifs", but when you start talking averages (average litter size, average number of litters per bitch, average sale price of a puppy from a reputable breeder, average veterinary expenses, average stud fee, etc.), there should be ample room to turn a profit.

This does not include incidental expenses. Lifestyle choices don't count towards business expenses. For those resources which are used exclusively for business purposes, that's fair enough, and fortunately, they're tax-deductible.

It has been my experience that a lot of people who try to turn a passion into a pseudo-occupation are terrible at math, terrible at separating what is part of the business and what is personal, terrible at organization, and terrible at efficiency & time management. This describes almost all artists, and it's why they're always starving.

Part of being professional is knowing exactly where the books stand and what the "big picture" of the operation is. Part of being professional is not counting one-off expenses against every litter, but prorating across all of them, and that includes facilities & durable goods that should be usable almost indefinitely. Part of being professional includes time tracking, mileage logging, and differentiating business from personal. Part of being professional is treating all the dogs in a breeding operation well, like the focus of the operation and not like an expendable asset that is to be used-up & then discarded.

I wouldn't presume to ask how much profit a breeder might be making off puppy sales, but if the they exude professionalism, I'm more likely to trust their decisions regarding breeding choices. I don't want to give my money to someone who is driven by impulse & feelings, I want to support someone who is responsible and makes deliberate, well-reasoned decisions, because that sort of conduct is the sort of value I look for and trust to do well for me in the long run.

I want to have nothing to do with greeders who only have a profit motive, that almost always shows through unprofessionalism because they invariably cut corners to maximize profits, as seen with the Canis Maximus woman. Or, like Robin Luther's example of the traveling puppy salesman, selling puppies out the back of a station wagon, yikes! So no, I don't judge professionalism on profit alone, but the capacity to turn a profit (if so desired) is a component of it.

The purchase price of an animal is only the BEGINNING of the expenses, and money itself is only the least of the expenses; the emotional toll from the heartbreak of caring for a sick animal is hard to assign a price to.

As a result, I would absolutely NOT recommend someone who is unable to afford to buy from a decent breeder go to a rescue to save money, because they're more likely going to be paying far more for that dog over the years. The purchase price is an initial investment, and even though one might hope that the higher prices mean healthier dogs, it's not always the case and research into the other areas of professionalism and competence is most definitely still required.
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post #59 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 02:58 PM
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And what's the big deal if someone DOES make money from a litter? I mean seriously, do we really want breeders being constantly in the red so that we can have amazing dogs? If my future breeder makes any sort of profit from me I will be pleased for them, they deserve it!


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post #60 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 03:05 PM
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Two awesome posts.
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post #61 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 03:14 PM
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Just so you know Kaloric - most of us are not in any way a "professional breeder" and it isn't a business. None of my expenses are tax deductable. This is strictly a hobby - most of us work regular jobs in order to afford our hobby. Breeding an occasional litter is not normally a money making undertaking in any way shape or form.

Breeders who are making profits on a regular basis are - IMHO - cutting corners somewhere. For most of us any actual extra money from a litter goes right back into showing one of the puppies and health testing everyone. In my 3 litters, I only made any profit on my last one - but will spend it all showing the bitch that I co-own as her owner does not have the money to show... but IS a fabulous home. So in reality, my net is zero.

Where I am lucky is that I can spend what I make at my part time job on the dogs..... if not for that money, I could not afford to show or breed.

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post #62 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaloric View Post
The purchase price of an animal is only the BEGINNING of the expenses, and money itself is only the least of the expenses; the emotional toll from the heartbreak of caring for a sick animal is hard to assign a price to.

As a result, I would absolutely NOT recommend someone who is unable to afford to buy from a decent breeder go to a rescue to save money, because they're more likely going to be paying far more for that dog over the years. The purchase price is an initial investment, and even though one might hope that the higher prices mean healthier dogs, it's not always the case and research into the other areas of professionalism and competence is most definitely still required.
^^^^^^^^^ This is so true, I have come to the conclusion that it is always a crap shoot as to whether the pup you get will be a heartbreaker or not,given all the genetic problems that can rear their ugly head. No matter where it comes from, anyone that gets one had better be prepared to give it the best vetting possible, including all appropriate testing and treatments if needed.

I am not one bit shy about telling people that they had better get ready to spend some money if they get one of these babies regardless if it is a rescue or a breeder purchase. I tell them they can stack the deck in their favor somewhat if they do due diligence and pick a good breeder, but there is still the training, monitoring and testing that should be done and I will even break it down using examples of how much I have personally spent in the past 7 years.

I do this because I am sick and tired of people who suddenly find they can not afford or do not want these dogs as soon as there is a medical issue, they move to a smaller place, they get a new job, they don't have time for them, they are too needy, they show a high prey drive etc. etc. etc. on and on. It may seem cold but I just can not stand to see these dogs put into these positions where they suffer because of humans inability to understand what they may be signing up for.

I usually end up telling them that it has all been worth it.... sharing my life with these beautiful creatures but if I were going to actually buy one I would look for a breeder that has lines that show longevity and good health rather than the first cute puppy they can afford.
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post #63 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 03:55 PM
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Yes, any dog, even from the best, most conscientious breeder, can have a health problem. However getting a dog from a good breeder can stack the deck in your favor. I've contacted a woman about some Dobe pups, and asked specific questions about OFA, holtering, vWD, and the like. Her actual response was "I don't know what you're talking about, but I guarantee my puppies 100%. Now, of course, I will most likely be getting a dog that came from a breeder like her, because I intend to rescue. But, when you rescue, you do so with the understanding that you taking a gamble.


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post #64 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
Just so you know Kaloric - most of us are not in any way a "professional breeder" and it isn't a business. None of my expenses are tax deductable. This is strictly a hobby - most of us work regular jobs in order to afford our hobby. Breeding an occasional litter is not normally a money making undertaking in any way shape or form.

Breeders who are making profits on a regular basis are - IMHO - cutting corners somewhere. For most of us any actual extra money from a litter goes right back into showing one of the puppies and health testing everyone. In my 3 litters, I only made any profit on my last one - but will spend it all showing the bitch that I co-own as her owner does not have the money to show... but IS a fabulous home. So in reality, my net is zero.

Where I am lucky is that I can spend what I make at my part time job on the dogs..... if not for that money, I could not afford to show or breed.
But I really, truly believe that people who want to be the best of the best, and put the work in, can and should turn a profit even if it's not a full-time job (whether they like it or not!).

You've probably noticed how "demanding" I tend to be in my bombastic posts regarding breeding practices, but I pride myself in not being unreasonable; I'm more than willing to pay for the quality or other perceived added value.

I know rather well the work that goes into raising animals, and it's worth something to me if it's done right by someone who is properly-funded. Even if it's your hobby and you don't care to support yourself from the breeding work, as you say, rolling profits back into your program is nice too.

When someone says things that sound conspicuosly like, "I'm doing this because I love Dobermans, I don't make any money off of it so you should stop bitching and just be grateful for whatever I can manage to give you even if it has problems!", that doesn't work for me. When I'm buying a puppy, I think of myself as a customer who wants to pay for canned corn, not a charity case at a nonprofit community pantry being an ingrate because I'm unhappy over getting green beans when I wanted canned corn instead.

I know that's not what you're saying, I'm paraphrasing a mishmash of comments from various threads in various forums by a range of breeders. That's the vibe I get, it's sometimes like being an amateur breeder should deflect any criticism, remove all accountability or requirements of professionalism. That tends to sound to me a whole lot more like corners being cut, than doing something so well that one can turn a reasonable profit even after spending the time and money to do everything to a high standard of quality and diligence. So, shut up and take my money, already!

Who knows, I may be in the market for a second Dobe in a year or two...
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post #65 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 10:22 AM
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But I really, truly believe that people who want to be the best of the best, and put the work in, can and should turn a profit even if it's not a full-time job (whether they like it or not!).
Are we supposed to have a crystal ball that tells us that we shouldn't spend $1000 health testing a specific bitch and then don't take a week off work, don't drive across the country and stay at a cheap motel, don't spend the money on progesterone tests because that breeding isn't going to take anyway?

Are we supposed to know that the "litter" is going to be one puppy?

That is the sort of thing that happens to breeders that we have no way of predicting, yet costs us money.

Also, I think when one tries to turn this hobby into a profit and thinks only in a business sense, which you seem to think should happen, dogs and puppies are going to die. Spending money to save them, if necessary, apparently wouldn't happen on your watch because it wouldn't make good business sense.

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post #66 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 11:28 AM
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There's a big difference between making a living off breeding dogs and making a reasonable profit off a litter. There will be unpredictable losses as in any business, but like any venture, you've got to be able to budget and plan properly. I don't see why there should be any harm in making a profit off a hobby that you probably dedicate more time to than necessary, because it is your passion. It's when breeding turns into a someone's main source of income that I start to see problems in terms of ethical practices.
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post #67 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Are we supposed to have a crystal ball that tells us that we shouldn't spend $1000 health testing a specific bitch and then don't take a week off work, don't drive across the country and stay at a cheap motel, don't spend the money on progesterone tests because that breeding isn't going to take anyway?

Are we supposed to know that the "litter" is going to be one puppy?
No. You're supposed to factor in all your expenses, all the averages (sure, one- or two-puppy litters happen, but they're exceedingly rare), and price accordingly. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but when you're good at what you do, bring value to the table, and inspire confidence in your customers, you give them a reason to not be cheapskates & pay more than the going rate. Everyone has to find their sweet spot, and it sure helps to have solid results in whatever your selling point is in order to build confidence, but I guarantee it works this way because I have firsthand experience having owned a couple of small businesses that I only left because they actually owned me instead.
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post #68 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 12:29 PM
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For crying out loud do the math! Paying $2,000 to $2,500 for a puppy from a reputable breeder from health tested and titled the parents is certainly NOT making it a profitable venture for these breeders. Most are only doing the breeding in the first place to keep a puppy for themselves, or on a co-ownership, to continue their lines and program. IMO, folks lucky enough to get their companion dog from one of these litters are getting a great bargain, usually a great dog, with 24/7 help available for the lifetime of the dog!

Many of the costs of testing, procedures and showing being tossed out on this thread are on the low side. Not saying they are not accurate for the particular country, area or breeder, however in reality many or most are paying A LOT more, especially in the states.

For instance I do yearly cardiac, blood and Thyroid testing on my two non-breeding dogs and it works out just short of $1,000 YEARLY, or $500 per dog. Certainly I could load them up in my full sized SUV and travel to a health clinic for a discount on the cardio testing, however if I factor in the travel, even a cheap motel and food, my out of pocket costs would remain the same, as it would for many breeders who don't have a health clinic with cardio testing in their backyard.

Ear cropping is costing some breeders over $500 per puppy! Tails and dew-claws at least $50 per puppy.

Showing is expensive, especially when you factor in the time, travel and handler fees. I don’t know the average cost to put a championship on a bitch but would guess between $5,000 to $10,000 in the states, as the bar as far as points and majors is higher here than in Canada. If I am wrong please chime in to correct me.

I will end with most all of the reputable breeders who I know will only breed a bitch two times during her lifetime.

None are making money, EVER, if you figure the land, facilities, time and vehicles into the equation.


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post #69 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 12:55 PM
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No. You're supposed to factor in all your expenses, all the averages (sure, one- or two-puppy litters happen, but they're exceedingly rare), and price accordingly.
Are they rare? How often is rare?

As I said, I've had 11 litters since 1996.

Two of them were singletons. One of those singletons passed away.

Three of those litters were 2 puppy litters.

There were 2 other litters where I went through all of the motions (and expense) that didn't take at all.

You know, I kept almost all of the receipts from the first singleton litter and kept careful track of the expenses. It cost me $5400 to produce that one puppy. I guess I should have factored in those expenses and sold him for $5400. Right ....

I used to do a bit of an analysis of the Canadian Doberman stud book for the DPCC. The average litter size was usually around 6.4 puppies. Average means there are a number of litters above and below that. That doesn't make the smaller litter "rare", imo.

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post #70 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 01:22 PM
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Mary that reminded me of Sue's singleton pup. She was named Fortune 5000.
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post #72 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
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Are they rare? How often is rare?

As I said, I've had 11 litters since 1996.

Two of them were singletons. One of those singletons passed away.

Three of those litters were 2 puppy litters.

There were 2 other litters where I went through all of the motions (and expense) that didn't take at all.

You know, I kept almost all of the receipts from the first singleton litter and kept careful track of the expenses. It cost me $5400 to produce that one puppy. I guess I should have factored in those expenses and sold him for $5400. Right ....

I used to do a bit of an analysis of the Canadian Doberman stud book for the DPCC. The average litter size was usually around 6.4 puppies. Average means there are a number of litters above and below that. That doesn't make the smaller litter "rare", imo.
Something is really confusing me here and it's not meant as a jab at Maryanddobes.

Please someone explain why these dobermans produced so few per litter yet byb's regularly churn out 8-14 pup litters?
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post #73 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 02:31 PM
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Showing is expensive, especially when you factor in the time, travel and handler fees. I don’t know the average cost to put a championship on a bitch but would guess between $5,000 to $10,000 in the states, as the bar as far as points and majors is higher here than in Canada. If I am wrong please chime in to correct me.
You can't factor in "showing costs". It's a hobby and not even remotely necessary (my personal opinion is that ribbon-chasing is detrimental to the breed). Now, if it meant more as a fundamental breeding-fitness examination like the ZTP, THAT would be a breeding-related business expense.

Quote:
None are making money, EVER, if you figure the land, facilities, time and vehicles into the equation.
You can't factor in lifestyle choices or things you mostly use personally. I have land, I have outbuildings, I have larger vehicles which are almost certainly larger than most dog breeders, since horses are my hobby/lifestyle choice. And actually, the costs of my lifestyle choices are kind of lower than most of the alternatives.

As for health testing expenses, it sure might be nice to eliminate some of those if more folks were to focus more on longevity and health, rather than show ribbons as breeding qualifications. But even as things sit, most folks are probably paying too much. Don't dog people have co-ops to get your occasional-use things from on the cheap? Don't you ever get together and schedule your vet needs as a group so you can negotiate prices down? Have you ever asked a vet for any sort of professional or bulk discount? A litter's worth of ear crops should be substantially cheaper each than a one-off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Three of those litters were 2 puppy litters.

There were 2 other litters where I went through all of the motions (and expense) that didn't take at all.

You know, I kept almost all of the receipts from the first singleton litter and kept careful track of the expenses. It cost me $5400 to produce that one puppy. I guess I should have factored in those expenses and sold him for $5400. Right ....
Sounds like you may have been breeding bitches that were not reproductively sound. A situation like that is where I, personally, would drop the animal from a breeding program, it only leads to propagating infertility, and by canine standards, that's practically sterility. It's bad for the bottom line, and it's bad for the breed. Not judgin', just sayin'.
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post #74 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 02:34 PM
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Something is really confusing me here and it's not meant as a jab at Maryanddobes.

Please someone explain why these dobermans produced so few per litter yet byb's regularly churn out 8-14 pup litters?
Because I actually care about longevity, and thought that maybe I could do something about it by waiting to breed most of my bitches until they are 4 or 5, giving them more time to show me possible problems so that I may remove them from the gene pool.

I'm breeding bitches that are older than 16 months when bybs usually start breeding.

I'm also trying to breed to older males whenever possible, again for the sake of longevity.

In my case, there is a sacrifice of fertility, I think. My larger, "normal" litters came when I bred girls that were 3.

kaloric wants longevity to improve, it seems from his posts. He also wants people to avoid popular sires, something else I try to do. But then comes the inevitable criticism about price from people who just don't understand what it costs to try to do the right things.

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post #75 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-10-2013, 02:47 PM
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You can't factor in lifestyle choices or things you mostly use personally.
Yes, you can. I don't think you bother to read some people's posts at all. I might want to live in the city, close to my job, in a smaller home. But breeding Dobermans, which I guess is my choice, doesn't allow for that. Do you understand at all how the tide has turned against dog breeders and how difficult it is to even get kennel licenses in some areas, making us have to live in areas we wouldn't choose otherwise? I might want to drive a small car which gets great mileage, but how am I going to take 5 Dobermans to a heart appointment 2 hours away on my day off?




Quote:
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As for health testing expenses, it sure might be nice to eliminate some of those if more folks were to focus more on longevity and health
Uh, we DO those things BECAUSE we are focused on health and longevity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaloric View Post
But even as things sit, most folks are probably paying too much. Don't dog people have co-ops to get your occasional-use things from on the cheap? Don't you ever get together and schedule your vet needs as a group so you can negotiate prices down? Have you ever asked a vet for any sort of professional or bulk discount? A litter's worth of ear crops should be substantially cheaper each than a one-off.
THOSE are also things we do.

Quote:
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Sounds like you may have been breeding bitches that were not reproductively sound. A situation like that is where I, personally, would drop the animal from a breeding program, it only leads to propagating infertility, and by canine standards, that's practically sterility. It's bad for the bottom line, and it's bad for the breed. Not judgin', just sayin'.
Ok, just so you know, I am judgin' and I don't think you're worth any more of my time.

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