"I don't want a show dog; I just want a pet." - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-08-2013, 10:57 PM
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1. Who was the guy that used to post here making the used car comparisons? Anyone remember?

2. Apply to a rescue, justduff
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post #27 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-08-2013, 10:59 PM
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Justduff. Try again.

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...r-puppies.html

Also posting this because its better than the other one I think... but my internet is acting like the page is dead. Hoping its just me.
Cost of breeding a doberman litter

And no one. No one. No one. NO ONE ethical would ever breed a bitch 8 times in any circumstance. Half that is generally considered too much. Most health testing needs to be completed at least before each litter.

Also that thread is nearly 6 years old, and things are more expensive now.

I want to say so much more, but actually read about the costs instead of guessing first. Then we'll talk.
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post #28 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-08-2013, 11:19 PM
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Lot of expenses you don't know about ...

Cost of a Litter - Glengate Reg'd Doberman Pinschers

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post #29 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-08-2013, 11:25 PM
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Well I don't know of any bitches bred from reputable/ethical breeders that are bred EIGHT times. I would say max would be 4 (usually only if other litters were 1-4 puppies.) Most do 1 or 2 litters, occasionally a bitch will have three, and even more rare 4. But I think the average would be 15 puppies in a life time for a bitch. If that.

Showing/working sports is so you get a DOBERMAN. Not just a random Black (red, fawn, blue) and Tan dog. They are doing this to better the breed and ensure they aren't bias by saying "oh yeah my dog is gorgeous!" or "My dogs are super protective!" They are getting an outsiders opinion to prove their opinions are true. Yes it's a hobby but it is way more than that. Most people wouldn't be showing their dogs if they didn't want to provide a quality dog to consumers.
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post #30 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-08-2013, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by justduff3324 View Post

First, I never said people aren't willing to pay for quality, I said they can't. Most people don't have $2,000+ to spend on anything

If you give them a choice of "purchase a lower quality dog you can afford" or "purchase a breed you don't want b/c you can't afford mind" they are going to go with option one almost every time.

I have to agree with all of the above wholeheartedly, and truthfully the only Doberman I ever laid out any cash for to obtain was my rescue girl Mimi.... I have also tried hard to point people wanting a Doberman to rescues rather than breeders, but unfortunately most reputable rescues have to charge as much or more for a dog than they can buy a cute little puppy for from a BYB or Puppymill.

However I have laid out a lot of money on health issues for six dobermans who are part of our extended family and no telling how many dobermans I have donated money to where the owners were over their heads in health bills.

Personally I am not a show person nor would I ever have the patience to train a dog for any show venue, I just want a pet..... I know that phrase has a bad connotation here so let me explain what I mean by using it.....

I want a dog that has a temperament that can be relied on, good health, as free as possible of genetic disease, and decent longevity. I also realize that I will never be what most really good breeders would want for an owner of a wonderful show quality puppy from fabulous lines. So even having the means to purchase such a pup does not mean I will ever get one.

The sire and dam of Boss were both health tested and when my son bought him he was shown all the test results, none the less we have a much loved boy with DCM although he is vWd clear by parentage and has no other issues and undoubtedly is the most intelligent of all of the family dobies (also the most velcro), He simply became ours because he chose us above all others.

I decided a long time ago that there are far too many dobermans in need of a home for it to be fair (for me) to buy one. But I sure would like to have a puppy that I could reasonably expect to live a normal life span.
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post #31 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-08-2013, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Luther View Post
I have to agree with all of the above wholeheartedly, and truthfully the only Doberman I ever laid out any cash for to obtain was my rescue girl Mimi.... I have also tried hard to point people wanting a Doberman to rescues rather than breeders, but unfortunately most reputable rescues have to charge as much or more for a dog than they can buy a cute little puppy for from a BYB or Puppymill.

However I have laid out a lot of money on health issues for six dobermans who are part of our extended family and no telling how many dobermans I have donated money to where the owners were over their heads in health bills.

Personally I am not a show person nor would I ever have the patience to train a dog for any show venue, I just want a pet..... I know that phrase has a bad connotation here so let me explain what I mean by using it.....

I want a dog that has a temperament that can be relied on, good health, as free as possible of genetic disease, and decent longevity. I also realize that I will never be what most really good breeders would want for an owner of a wonderful show quality puppy from fabulous lines. So even having the means to purchase such a pup does not mean I will ever get one.

The sire and dam of Boss were both health tested and when my son bought him he was shown all the test results, none the less we have a much loved boy with DCM although he is vWd clear by parentage and has no other issues and undoubtedly is the most intelligent of all of the family dobies (also the most velcro), He simply became ours because he chose us above all others.

I decided a long time ago that there are far too many dobermans in need of a home for it to be fair (for me) to buy one. But I sure would like to have a puppy that I could reasonably expect to live a normal life span.
Rescuing is definitely a great decision. But just wanted to touch on this. There is NOTHING wrong with a dog being [just] a pet. There are dogs that aren't show quality in every litter (not that they are bad just not what the breeder is looking for at the time usually.) Which is what this thread was originally about. You can buy a pet from a great breeder that breeds for show.

All of my dogs are pets first and foremost, then they are show dogs.

Sadly, cardio is everywhere. All you can do is stack the odds in your favor and hope for the best.
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post #32 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 12:00 AM
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I want a pet. Yeah, I'll be looking for a likely obedience prospect, but my dogs are first and foremost pets. I'm either going to "bite the bullet" pricewise, and buy from an ethical breeder who titles, health tests, and will be there for me with support for the life of my dog, OR, I will go with a rescue. Besides, in the long run, the purchase price is the least of what you'll spend on a dog in it's lifetime.


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post #33 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by monicaei View Post
1. Who was the guy that used to post here making the used car comparisons? Anyone remember?

2. Apply to a rescue, justduff
1) The first post brought up the car comparison "You need to realize that when you do this, you're going to the used car dealership, WATCHING them pry the "Audi" plate off a new car, observing them as they use Bondo to stick it on a '98 Corolla, and then writing them a check and feeling smug that you got an Audi for so little. " I saw them in a few others, but this is the post I originally replied to so I stuck with it. I must admit I skipped over most of the posts involving horses.

2) I purchased my puppy from a recommended breeder on this website and paid over $2,000. I'm just bringing in another side of the discussion. I'm not trying to sound mean/attacking/rude and apologies if I read that way.
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post #34 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Luther View Post
Personally I am not a show person nor would I ever have the patience to train a dog for any show venue, I just want a pet..... I know that phrase has a bad connotation here so let me explain what I mean by using it.....

I want a dog that has a temperament that can be relied on, good health, as free as possible of genetic disease, and decent longevity. I also realize that I will never be what most really good breeders would want for an owner of a wonderful show quality puppy from fabulous lines. So even having the means to purchase such a pup does not mean I will ever get one.
But not all puppies go on to be shown, actually I would think MOST are sold as pets! Haven't you noticed all the beautiful, well bred dogs on this forum who will never be shown in conformation and will never be bred?
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post #35 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justduff3324 View Post
2) I'm trying to introduce how most American's are approaching purchasing a dog. We live in a society of "this is what I want and I will get what I want." If people want a Doberman, they will buy one they can afford, they won't get a breed they don't want because it's "the right thing to do." People don't even purchase dogs to match their life style, plenty of active dogs are purchased by owners who are to lazy to walk them simply because they want that breed.
And honestly, that's not something to encourage. Doberman are an active breed and they need to be worked. I have seen large active breeds in quiet/lazy/elderly/whathaveyou homes and I can very plainly see that the dogs are NOT happy there. While dog purchasers (not just in America) will say, I want what I want and I'll get what I want, that does not make it right and it doesn't mean we have to support those people.

If they want a lower cost doberman that they know will fit their lifestyle, there's always rescue to consider. There ARE puppies in rescue, I think I've seen at least 3 foster mommies posting on here in the <1yr that I've been on this forum, all litters of 5 or more. There's likely more where that came from too, just being fostered by folks that don't have an account.

Quote:
Now for where breeders/consumers will disagree. The cost of showing and and other training. I have no idea of the price of this as it will vary from breeder to breeder, I'm sure it can exceed $10,000 per dog. As a breeder you incorporate the cost of this into your puppies.

Now as a consumer I might have a problem with this. This is not a direct cost of breeding your dog, testing it for genetic defects, etc. This is your hobby, you enjoy doing this, and you want the people who purchase your puppies to pay for your hobby. If the only reason you show is to increase the price of the puppies you sell then you aren't selling "pets" you are selling "show dogs."
There are others who have posted links quoting prices that are much much higher than what you've guestimated. But this I have a bit of a problem with. People don't title their dogs in order to make the prices higher. People don't breed their dogs to make more Doberman. They do both of these things, to make sure the breed stays to standard, and to improve overall performance of the breed.

It is, actually, a direct cost to the puppies. To produce quality you must first prove that you have quality in the first place. Using your car example (though comparing mechanics to living creatures = not so good), there's more to a BMW's price than just the fancy name and passing minimal inspection, right? The car should move, feel, drive... like a BMW, not like that little old lady's station wagon down the street. A doberman is a breed that has a specific look, temperament, and overall "feel" to it. They should not look, act, or feel like your average byb lab.

Like a BMW being tested at a manufacturer, a breeder first has to run their dogs through a bunch of tests to see if they're even able to be considered breeding quality. While I don't personally care about conformation as much as a show breeder, a doberman needs to look like a doberman. In order to do this, they need to keep to the standard. In order to judge how well they keep to standard, they go to shows and obtain championships and grand championships.

A doberman also needs to act like a doberman, otherwise you have a cheap knock-off slimy used-car-salesmen overpriced lemon BMW- a car that looks cool but handles real poorly. Doberman are a working breed. I prefer seeing working and obedience titles- I believe that you need a sound dog to "work" anyway. In order to prove working ability, breeders also title their dogs in sports such as schutzhund/ipo, and folks a little less interested in working sport go for agility/rally/obed (and there's a whoooooooole debate about THAT waiting to happen). I also look for temperament tests, because I want a dog that's stable both in the house and out and about everywhere I go.

Now what does this have to do with breeding? Well, temperament, drive, working ability, conformation, all of those things are passed down from parents to puppies. Breed parents with bad temperaments, you'll likely get puppies with bad temperaments. Part of this is in raising, but remember that you can raise a puppy with poor genetics perfectly and still get an unstable out of control dog. All of these tests and titles are to prove that the breeder knows exactly what they're producing, and will be passing these traits down to the puppies.

And all of this does get VERY costly! Aside from entry fees you also have training and travel costs- puppy kindergarten alone in my area is like $100 to start, you want to get competitive in anything you pay a LOT more than that. You have to buy equipment to train, that's not cheap either no matter what sport you might be getting into.

Quote:
I'm just trying to bring a different perspective to the forum. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what I've said above. The point I'm trying to make is if you want to solve the problem, your solution has to address the issue. If the issue is price, then your reasoning about quality or bettering the breed doesn't apply. People who are purchasing a pet care about these as much as they want a pet. If you give them a choice of "purchase a lower quality dog you can afford" or "purchase a breed you don't want b/c you can't afford mind" they are going to go with option one almost every time.
We've had this "different perspective" presented many times before We're not saying, if you can't afford or don't want to spend 1500-2500 on a doberman get a lab. We're saying, go with a rescue! Spend $200-500 on a doberman instead, that's about how much you'd be paying from a BYB anyway and it's the same quality you're going to get, except instead of helping poor breeding practices continue you'll be helping dogs in need.

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post #36 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
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But not all puppies go on to be shown, actually I would think MOST are sold as pets! Haven't you noticed all the beautiful, well bred dogs on this forum who will never be shown in conformation and will never be bred?
Yes I have and I did not mean to suggest otherwise, my Grand dobes Oscar (9yrs.) and Bubba (starting to wonder about his lines though) are. But to get a pup from some breeders is not so easy simply because IMHO there is a huge demand for few pups and most of the really good breeders would prefer someone they know or are close enough that they can keep a check on because they indeed do care about their pups.....show quality or not.

I also had a really hard time getting my rescue girl without an intensive interview and numerous vet checks because Boss is not neutered and I won't have him done. Our vet recommended that we never put him under unless it was medically necessary after we lost his litter mate during an ear crop due to a suspected anesthetic allergy. Some rescues flat refused to let me have a (spayed) female because of it.
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post #37 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Lot of expenses you don't know about ...

Cost of a Litter - Glengate Reg'd Doberman Pinschers
I'm going to use this link to talk about the price, the other one was in non-US currency and I didn't want to do conversions.

I put the following numbers into a spread sheet based on what was listed in the link. Some are still a guess as some of the prices were not complete: IE Formula was given in a per package price but didn't say how many packages were needed.

reason cost
vWB 135
thyroid 140
heart 100
cardiac 60
hip 230
eye 57
liver 100
vet 100
stud 1500
flight 600
breed test 240
welping box 300
kit 120
birth/c-section 1000
formula 150
dew claws 20/puppy
register 22/puppy
shots 25/puppy
crop 250/puppy

The only one in this list I wouldn't include in the base price of a puppy is a c-section (unless you know for sure you will be having one). I am of the belief it is unfair to charge for something that "might" happen and then pocket the cash if it doesn't, yes I'm aware this is how insurance works and I hate the concept.

This time the only costs I made 1 time were (vWB, cardiac, hip, tests and a whelping box), these were listed in the post as only needing to be done once.

I also allocated an extra $200 per puppy as misc costs, the more puppies you have the more costs you have.

Based on this, not including C-Section, assuming a bitch has 1 litter and all costs are associated to the puppies had.

8 puppies would incur a cost of $996 per puppy, total of $7,968 for the litter.
6 puppies would incur a cost of $866.75 per puppy, toal $6934 for the litter.
I guessed a litter of 6 would be $800 per puppy.

That being said the post above the says "In my conversations with people that are interested in breeding Dobermans, I advise that at the very least they are likely going to need approximately $5,000 set aside to cover expenses, both expected and unexpected."

I have allocated over $5,000 per litter, with the flexibility of it to cost more based on the number of puppies you have. I did look up breeders listed on this site to get a feel for how many puppies come in a litter. The most I saw was 12, in a litter of 12 the cost per puppy is 1254.5.

All that being said lets say my estimates are wrong and add $300 per puppy to cover additional costs (that's $500 extra per puppy I'm adding for costs I don't know about). This would make a litter of 12 cost $1500 per puppy, and a litter of 6, which is closer to average, cost ~$1100 per puppy.

Again I'm not saying a quality litter should sell for $150 per puppy, I do realize that doesn't even cover the cost of the cropping of ears. My debate has been $2,000+ is over priced, using the article provided by you I think my point is valid.
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post #38 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:15 AM
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vWD

Sorry, carry on.
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post #39 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
I want a pet. Yeah, I'll be looking for a likely obedience prospect, but my dogs are first and foremost pets. I'm either going to "bite the bullet" pricewise, and buy from an ethical breeder who titles, health tests, and will be there for me with support for the life of my dog, OR, I will go with a rescue. Besides, in the long run, the purchase price is the least of what you'll spend on a dog in it's lifetime.
I agree the up front cost is the least of what I'll spend. However, baring injury/health condition, it is the largest lump sum you will have to pay. If breeders offered a payment plan the price debate would probably lessen.

Also, I forgot to mention 2 things on this.

1) I spoke with a breeder who wanted 1/2 the price as a down payment. This is fine, however the down payment was non-refundable and didn't guarantee you a puppy. If not enough puppies were born you would be placed on a waiting list for the next litter. This makes me feel like breeders are out for profit. And yes this breeder is a breeder recommended on this forum.

2) Supply and Demand. All the breeders I researched, none of them had trouble selling their litters and most had to turn potential buyers away. While this does refute my reasoning that people can't afford it (yes I'm presenting an argument against myself now), it's back to the "if someone wants a doberman they will get one". If not enough quality doberman are available people will move to the next breeder. Even if quality doberman dropped to a price of $150, there wouldn't be enough, and people would still buy from backyard breeders to find their pet. Most people aren't patient, and yes I waited 4 years before I decided to buy a puppy and waited 8 months for my breeder to have a litter.
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post #40 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:16 AM
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vWD

Sorry, carry on.
spelling has never been my strong point
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post #41 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:20 AM
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I believe (hope) I talked someone out of breeding their "great" dog not long ago using very similar figures and further pointing out that "planning to show their dog" likely will not up the pups price so they would never break even on on a litter of z factored pups that anyone who knows anything about Dobes will not want anyway. Besides the bitch is too young to breed IMO.
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post #42 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:26 AM
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I thought since everyone is being so nice I would post some poor quality pictures.
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post #43 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:32 AM
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Too cute.... I love pictures, how did you manage to train him to hold the treat on his nose without drooling to the floor?
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post #44 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Robin Luther View Post
Too cute.... I love pictures, how did you manage to train him to hold the treat on his nose without drooling to the floor?
Oh he drools. It's not to bad though just a few drops each time the trick is done.
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post #45 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 01:57 AM
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Yes I have and I did not mean to suggest otherwise, my Grand dobes Oscar (9yrs.) and Bubba (starting to wonder about his lines though) are. But to get a pup from some breeders is not so easy simply because IMHO there is a huge demand for few pups and most of the really good breeders would prefer someone they know or are close enough that they can keep a check on because they indeed do care about their pups.....show quality or not.
Eeeeh, I'd disagree on that one, and can provide reasons that someone WOULD feel that way. I have been in conversations with breeders all the way from California to Georgia over the past <1yr, scouring the dobe world to see who would be best to get a puppy from. They were all fine with talking to me about their dogs with me making it plain that I was #1 new to reputable breeders, #2 new to doberman, #3 new to sport, #4 interested in puppies. Ask questions, answer questions, prove to them that you're doing research or that you've done it, and they will decide the rest

Now, why someone WOULD feel that way? Well, because honestly it's a lot easier if something DOES go wrong if your breeder can swoop in and help. If you're all the way across the states and you need posting/taping help with the ears and your vet clearly doesn't understand how to (not uncommon at all), who's going to help you? If something happens in your personal life and you need the dog to go back to the breeder, even temporarily, how does it get there?

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I also had a really hard time getting my rescue girl without an intensive interview and numerous vet checks because Boss is not neutered and I won't have him done. Our vet recommended that we never put him under unless it was medically necessary after we lost his litter mate during an ear crop due to a suspected anesthetic allergy. Some rescues flat refused to let me have a (spayed) female because of it.
That one I can understand, not liking a certain rescue because of xyz, but I've found the better rescues are also willing to work with you on certain issues. That said, there's a local GSD rescue that requires every adopter to be 25+yrs, with one person who stays at home at all times, and you're never allowed to do anything with your pet except have it be a pet and yes that includes competition sports and even therapy work because I asked. Another rescue wants you to sign a contract saying you'll only feed a specific (crappy!) brand of food. Breeders or rescues, it doesn't matter, you need to find the one that is both reputable but also clicks with you.


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Originally Posted by justduff3324 View Post
1) I spoke with a breeder who wanted 1/2 the price as a down payment. This is fine, however the down payment was non-refundable and didn't guarantee you a puppy. If not enough puppies were born you would be placed on a waiting list for the next litter. This makes me feel like breeders are out for profit. And yes this breeder is a breeder recommended on this forum.
Repeat above If you don't like something, find someone who still is considered reputable, but who you also click with. You might not find someone right away! There will be people who rub you the wrong way, or who are having a bad day, or who don't realize text doesn't convey tone very well on the internet. Most of the folks I talked to, they want deposits once they have a litter on the ground and know how many people to contact on the wait list, and deposit is definitely not half, AND it'll be refunded if a tragic accident happens while they're growing. Some folks operate differently.

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2) Supply and Demand. All the breeders I researched, none of them had trouble selling their litters and most had to turn potential buyers away. While this does refute my reasoning that people can't afford it (yes I'm presenting an argument against myself now), it's back to the "if someone wants a doberman they will get one". If not enough quality doberman are available people will move to the next breeder. Even if quality doberman dropped to a price of $150, there wouldn't be enough, and people would still buy from backyard breeders to find their pet. Most people aren't patient, and yes I waited 4 years before I decided to buy a puppy and waited 8 months for my breeder to have a litter.
See above post The nownownownowmemememe attitude is not one that should be rewarded or encouraged. There will be puppies in rescue, if someone is willing to wait a little bit. There will be dogs popping up in shelters in the mean time. DDR, a rescue close to me, currently has a 9mo. IDR+ also has a 9mo. There are baby baby puppies in nearby all-breed rescues that will serve my state. A quick look around the internet told me that. Or I could look at a local broker site for a list of puppies in the area. DDR's pup would cost me $400, I dunno how much IDR+'s would, the broker site's lowest dobie pup is... $750, looks like.

Good things come to those who wait. I don't like the waiting for years as much as the next person, but sometimes those things happen. There have, however, been breeders with available dogs that people came on and were recommended to very quickly.

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post #46 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by justduff3324 View Post

reason cost
vWB 135
thyroid 140
heart 100
cardiac 60
hip 230
eye 57
liver 100
vet 100
stud 1500
flight 600
breed test 240
welping box 300
kit 120
birth/c-section 1000
formula 150
dew claws 20/puppy
register 22/puppy
shots 25/puppy
crop 250/puppy

8 puppies would incur a cost of $996 per puppy, total of $7,968 for the litter.
6 puppies would incur a cost of $866.75 per puppy, toal $6934 for the litter.
I guessed a litter of 6 would be $800 per puppy.

.
I think heart tests are about $200 for an echo and $150 to rent a holter plus $30 for the reading. Stud price is usually the price of a puppy so add another $500.

All of your post is if the bitch has a nice sized, healthy litter. What if she has 2 puppies? What if the bitch is shipped all the way to some far away state only to realize they can't get a tie and need to do an AI? What about time taken off of work? The list goes on and on. I can't find the post but a member on here (I want to say workingk9s but that might be wrong) posted a thread about the struggles of breeding. The person was doing everything right as far as health testing and titling and nothing seemed to be going their way, it ended up with a pile of bills and no puppies if I remember correctly.

You didn't include titling costs at all. Avril's road to becoming a champion was fairly short, entry fees alone cost about $700 if I did my math correctly. This doesn't include hotels and all that extra fun stuff. Round up to $1,000 because most dogs take longer to finish. I think between the heart testing, extra stud fee and titling cost you are up nearly $2,000. So your litter of 8 is almost to $10,000. Which is $1,250. Say you keep one for yourself, still deal with all the same fees so it would be $10,000 for 7 puppies to be sold.

At some point these costs need to be off set. Maybe it doesn't seem fair to have to pay for something that has "nothing to do with your puppy." But as someone else said you are also paying for breeder support. To me it's definitely worth it in the end.

(Try to ignore my horrible grammar. It's late and I'm on my phone.)
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post #47 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 08:46 AM
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I'm going to use this link to talk about the price, the other one was in non-US currency and I didn't want to do conversions.

I put the following numbers into a spread sheet based on what was listed in the link. Some are still a guess as some of the prices were not complete: IE Formula was given in a per package price but didn't say how many packages were needed.

reason cost
vWB 135
thyroid 140
heart 100
cardiac 60
hip 230
eye 57
liver 100
vet 100
stud 1500
flight 600
breed test 240
welping box 300
kit 120
birth/c-section 1000
formula 150
dew claws 20/puppy
register 22/puppy
shots 25/puppy
crop 250/puppy

The only one in this list I wouldn't include in the base price of a puppy is a c-section (unless you know for sure you will be having one). I am of the belief it is unfair to charge for something that "might" happen and then pocket the cash if it doesn't, yes I'm aware this is how insurance works and I hate the concept.

This time the only costs I made 1 time were (vWB, cardiac, hip, tests and a whelping box), these were listed in the post as only needing to be done once.

I also allocated an extra $200 per puppy as misc costs, the more puppies you have the more costs you have.

Based on this, not including C-Section, assuming a bitch has 1 litter and all costs are associated to the puppies had.

8 puppies would incur a cost of $996 per puppy, total of $7,968 for the litter.
6 puppies would incur a cost of $866.75 per puppy, toal $6934 for the litter.
I guessed a litter of 6 would be $800 per puppy.

That being said the post above the says "In my conversations with people that are interested in breeding Dobermans, I advise that at the very least they are likely going to need approximately $5,000 set aside to cover expenses, both expected and unexpected."

I have allocated over $5,000 per litter, with the flexibility of it to cost more based on the number of puppies you have. I did look up breeders listed on this site to get a feel for how many puppies come in a litter. The most I saw was 12, in a litter of 12 the cost per puppy is 1254.5.

All that being said lets say my estimates are wrong and add $300 per puppy to cover additional costs (that's $500 extra per puppy I'm adding for costs I don't know about). This would make a litter of 12 cost $1500 per puppy, and a litter of 6, which is closer to average, cost ~$1100 per puppy.

Again I'm not saying a quality litter should sell for $150 per puppy, I do realize that doesn't even cover the cost of the cropping of ears. My debate has been $2,000+ is over priced, using the article provided by you I think my point is valid.
What you don't count for is the breeders TIME - it is pretty much a 24/7 job for at least 8 weeks. Trust me when I say that for an average sized litter of 7 that had no major issues (c-section, disease, etc...), if you factor in the time issue we are making slave labor wages at $2000 a puppy.

Remember, that none of the figures include the cost of showing, and for me a heart ultrasound at a low cost clinic put on by my club costs $175 - if I went to the same cardiologist individually, it would cost over $400. Heart testing, thyroid, blood panels are done every year... so it is an ongoing cost. That list is the bare basics.... most of us spend a lot more. With my last litter, I dna tested every puppy for vwd (there could only be clear or carrier) and coat color. That cost $800 alone.

In addition, every owner has pretty much 24/7 access to me for the life of their puppy ... and beyond. I'm pretty sure that is worth something to most puppy buyers.

My last thought on this topic - I don't breed very often, and I never have a shortage of people wanting to buy one of my puppies and happily paying what it costs for a well bred dog with lifetime breeder support. There will also always be people who will not pay for a well bred dog, but want a puppy. Nothing I can do about that either. Those people will continue to frantically search the internet for answers when they have questions... because they don't have a good breeder to call. A good majority of them will either rescue the next time or search for a good breeder because they have learned that the extra cost is well worth it.
I have produced a total of 19 puppies in my 20 years in this breed - all of the owners know about Doberman Talk because I tell them about it. One or two of them come on here occasionally, but none of them have ever needed to come on here to find answers for their questions..... I'd like to think that is because they get the help they need without having to search the internet for it. How much is that worth?

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post #48 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
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Now, why someone WOULD feel that way? Well, because honestly it's a lot easier if something DOES go wrong if your breeder can swoop in and help. If you're all the way across the states and you need posting/taping help with the ears and your vet clearly doesn't understand how to (not uncommon at all), who's going to help you? If something happens in your personal life and you need the dog to go back to the breeder, even temporarily, how does it get there?
Agreed... and this is exactly what I would want do if I bred a litter. Oscars breeder is no longer close because he retired and moved off somewhere and Bubba's breeder is still in contact at least every other week. Having dealt with a (so called reputable) breeder (on my sons behalf) out of Georgia, I personally would demand to see in person where my pup came from and would probably have more questions for them than they would have for me lol.



Quote:
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That one I can understand, not liking a certain rescue because of xyz, but I've found the better rescues are also willing to work with you on certain issues. That said, there's a local GSD rescue that requires every adopter to be 25+yrs, with one person who stays at home at all times, and you're never allowed to do anything with your pet except have it be a pet and yes that includes competition sports and even therapy work because I asked. Another rescue wants you to sign a contract saying you'll only feed a specific (crappy!) brand of food. Breeders or rescues, it doesn't matter, you need to find the one that is both reputable but also clicks with you.
I called several rescues before I got Mimi and every single time Boss's unaltered status was an issue even though I explained the situation.... some even suggested that I have him neutered anyway (different anesthetic) it got to where it was almost laughable at the time since I never tried to get an intact female to begin with and if I had been interested in breeding there were lots of craigslist bitches to be had. I found that most of the questions and requirements were reasonable but the "Oh no we will not allow an adopter with unaltered animals" that some had was pretty silly given my references, vetting history, and agreeing to all other requirements.

I just wanted an adult female that had been checked out and was relatively healthy.... thankfully I got my girl and other than her trying to eat everything in sight I have been very happy with her.

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post #49 of 201 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 10:14 AM
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I just want to say that I, for one, have no problem with good breeders making some profit. Now, if they were living in a million dollar mansion and flying off for vacations in the Cayman Islands every other month, that would be a little much.

I'm just saying that, like Fitzmar has been saying, we are paying for a lot more than just the puppy. We are also getting all of the breeder's time, expertise, support and flat out love for the breed. They are not getting rich. I have been to my breeder's house, and over the years there have been changes made, but even those changes are all for the dogs.

If my few hundred "extra" dollars (if they happen to be extra that litter) help offset some costs of other litters, so that my breeder can continue to try to improve the breed I love, well then I am A-OK with that! I think she deserves it.


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Quote:
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I agree the up front cost is the least of what I'll spend. However, baring injury/health condition, it is the largest lump sum you will have to pay.
I sincerely wish that were true. Sometimes, it is. But what happens when your puppy eats a sock and has an obstruction surgery? Or the trip to the emergency vet after hours because your pup has horrific diarrhea? While a spay surgery isn't $2K, it's not cheap, either. Honestly, I don't make a lot of money. Saving up the price of a well-bred puppy was not easy. But if I can't do that, if I don't have enough to put away some each month for the cost of a puppy, how will I afford the dog food? The vet expenses? Training? If you have enough for that, you can save up for a pup. The problem isn't the cost, it's that people want a puppy NOW and they aren't willing to save for one, and they aren't willing to wait on a breeder's waiting list for a year. It's the "I want it now" mentality, not the cost.

Also, rescuing a dog is always an option. My rescue boy was an amazing dog and I miss him every day. His adoption fee wasn't much. However, he cost me a fair amount in vet bills, too. No dog is cheap.


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