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Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #1 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-13-2008, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Kimbertal

Do these people have any clue that there is NO such thing as TRI-international champion (Wiking di Perlanera)? Since when dogs started getting titles like that? And this is on every advertising they have in print!

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post #2 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-13-2008, 10:55 PM
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K'tal will stoop to whatever lowlife lies it takes to pawn off their dogs and make them look good. The sad part is some people fall for this scam.
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post #3 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-14-2008, 08:43 AM
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IMHO their claim to take back dogs who are no longer wanted is a load of crap. Alot of the Dobes in rescue in PA are because of their practices, they will sell to anyone and we all know that cute little Dobe puppies can grow up to be real monsters if they don't get exercise and training.

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post #4 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-14-2008, 04:18 PM
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They are real fast to take your credit card for the price of their dogs, but take them back? No way, no how!
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post #5 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 06:44 AM
 
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As an owner of a 1+ year old male red dobie from Kimbertal, we could not be more pleased. My wife and I are both post-grad educated and believe that we could not have made a better decision on his purchase.
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post #6 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 08:18 AM
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I'm sure that will make the dogs and puppies feel better that burned to death a few years ago in a huge fire they had at the "puppy mill K'tal". Did they take your credit card too? Knowing K'tal they did!
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post #7 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Christie View Post
As an owner of a 1+ year old male red dobie from Kimbertal, we could not be more pleased. My wife and I are both post-grad educated and believe that we could not have made a better decision on his purchase.
What does ur grad degree have to do with anything? Perhaps I should list my degree's under my sig to validate my posts even more...

Its good that you had a positive experience- however there are so many respected individuals in the doberman community that have had tragic results with their kimbertal dogs.

For all your education you should know that doberman's are not meant to live outside in kennels. They were bred to be personal protection dogs- they can't feel like they are fulfilling their purpose.... further more, with al of your education and experience, did Kimbertal give you the results of Thyroid testing, a Holter for heart testing on the parents? With the mass quantity of dogs they breed and the small number of dog's that show on the OFA registry I doubt it.

I too have a post-grad degree... but many on here do not, and I've seen them make more informed posts.... its just like saying "I have a lot of money, and I can have the best of anything, so my decision is better than your decision"...not the best way to make your point around here.
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post #8 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Erik Christie View Post
As an owner of a 1+ year old male red dobie from Kimbertal, we could not be more pleased. My wife and I are both post-grad educated and believe that we could not have made a better decision on his purchase.
If you have such advanced degrees, surely you can Google. If you Google the terms "Kimbertal Kennels"+"problems" you will have such a mountain of distressing information in your face as to make you cry over the dogs kept and raised in that kennel. The quote below is from an article by the National Animal Interest Alliance (NAIA) entitled "Why Pennsylvania Dog Clubs Fought For a Puppy Lemon Law." Can you even imagine the magnitude of suffering for the dogs kept in a kennel producing over 300 litters a year? What a horror and travesty. You obviously love your dog and that is great but you also supported dog farming and puppy milling which is truly not something to brag about.

I hope you will actually use your intelligence to research this topic and join the many who try to fight the puppy mill situation, or, at minimum, get info out to potential buyers about critical topics: the cruelty of keeping dogs like the Doberman in kennels for all of their life to be producers only, continually breeding dogs without regard to health issues or improvement of the breed, failure to uphold the barest of ethical relationships with buyers (such as taking back a problem puppy), etc.

The quote from just ONE of the many articles with appalling facts about Kimbertal Kennels:

"It took nine years to pass this law because the puppy mill operators had strong political influence. They were considered members of our highly regarded agricultural community, so we had to convince people that dogs are meant to be companions for many years, not livestock that lasts for a meal. We also had to show that the puppy farmers were profiting while the rest of society was paying a heavy price for sick puppies.

Led by Robert Yarnell Jr., the non-Amish operator of Kimbertal Kennels in Chester County, the commercial kennel owners hired a former Lancaster County legislator as a lobbyist to fight us at the Capitol. Yarnell's Kimbertal Kennels sells close to 300 litters of Dobermans, Rottweilers, and rare breed puppies per year. The complaints against his kennel were featured in an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Yarnell started a campaign of misinformation and lies to try to destroy us and our federation - making us stronger and more determined to get the law passed."
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post #9 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 04:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Christie View Post
As an owner of a 1+ year old male red dobie from Kimbertal, we could not be more pleased. My wife and I are both post-grad educated and believe that we could not have made a better decision on his purchase.
It's not really about YOU, it's about the dogs. It's good that you are happy with the dog you got from Kimbertal. But they breed too many dogs to go into an already oversaturated pet Doberman market, they are mass producers of dogs. They don't do testing of their breeding stock for inheritable diseases, this is a disservice to the dogs they produce and eventually to the owners of those dogs. They deliberately breed Dobermans to be oversized, the extra weight on a breed not mant to be giant sized leads to more hip and joint problems and other disorders that plague the giant breeds.

As someon else mentioned they ware house their "inventory" in barns, a few years ago 50 (FIFTY) Rottweiler puppies died in a fire in one of Kimbertal's barns. There were no sprinklers in the barn. Most large businesses have sprinkler systems in their warehouses to put out fires in their buildings that hold inanimate objects, Kimbertal couldn't even be bothered to install sprinklers in a barn housing PUPPIES.

They don't care who they sell their puppies to as long as they get paid for those puppies.

On all those counts Kimbertal stands indicted as an irresponsible and unethical breeder. IMO boasting about your "post graduate degrees" only makes you look more foolish than a less educated person for not having seen thru the BS.
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post #10 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Christie View Post
As an owner of a 1+ year old male red dobie from Kimbertal, we could not be more pleased. My wife and I are both post-grad educated and believe that we could not have made a better decision on his purchase.
On his purchase?


Clipclop, actually I think there are several on this site with post graduate degrees. However, most formal education and many graduate programs do not include dog knowledge or any dog classes at all. Many of the professionals I work with are brilliant individuals but absolutely clueless when it comes to dogs.

Regardless, the reality is the puppy dog is 1 year old. Come back in 10-12 years Erik and let me know your experience with this puppy mill called Kimbertal. Health, temperament, structural problems, etc. usually take longer than one year to surface, so does the fact that the “breeder” offers very little support for their puppy buyers should something happen.

To Erik, don’t feel too bad that you got taken; countless others also fall for their scams and lies, their clever website and marketing tactics, this is proven by the massive number of dogs they produce and place each year. But I hope rather than boast about buying from one of the biggest Doberman puppy mills in the US you can instead learn from the experience. I can only hope your dog doesn’t have any of the problems others Kimbertal dogs have had…

With all due respect, graduate students should be very familiar with in depth research, as another poster suggested, you might want to do a bit more of that…


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post #11 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 08:41 PM
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dobesanddragons- thats for saying what I was trying to say... that is what I meant- with or without a degree, homework wasn't done on part of the OP... I have a grad degree and I came this close to purchasing a dobie from a bad breeder until I was informed by the people on this site. (grad degree and all- hee hee)
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post #12 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 09:13 PM
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I don't think that anyone should be made to feel bad for buying from Kimbertal. If you are not a "dog" person, it would be very easy to believe that they are a top notch breeder. They have gotten ahold of some good European bloodlines and are in the process of breeding them to any bitch they can.......... then selling the resulting puppies for big bucks. Plenty of intellegent people would have no idea that a kennel full of dogs for sale is NOT how reputable breeders work ........ they aren't kept in tiny filthy cages like you see on tv. People just don't know. Doing your research first is a good idea, but I'm not going to slam someone for not doing it. I didn't do it with my first Doberman (well before the internet was accessable for the average person), and ended up with a byb girl that could have been used as an example of the worst conformation around at the DPCA national - LOL! I still loved that dog, but knew what she was, and didn't defend it.

I know plenty of people who have started out with a Kimbertal dog and are perfectly happy with them........ and as long as they never need a safety net for the dog it is fine.

As far as the life of the dog........... for them it is a crap shoot because Kimbertal will sell to anyone with the money or a credit card. Many of the people here have seen the pictures of the puppy I fostered for rescue a few years ago - he was a Kimbertal Doberman that someone payed really good money for and then proceeded to starve the brink of death. If you have not seen the shocking pictures then feel free to visit my website - they are on there for the whole world to see.

I don't care where anyone got the Doberman they have - it is where you get the next one that counts as far as I'm concerned.

Kimbertal will keep selling their un-health tested mass produced puppies to people who just didn't know any better ............ or to the people who want a puppy now and are not willing to wait for a well bred one ......... or to the people who a reputable breeder would not sell to (and these are the ones that worry me the most). Rescue will keep trying to clean up their messes...... and the cycle will continue.

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post #13 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 09:39 PM
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Once bitten....twice shy. We can all make a mistake one time....but by the next ,hopefully we have learned enough to make a better choice. No one in their right mind should support any of the following...BYBs, Greeders or Puppy mills. Dobermans are meant to live side by side with their people, NEVER IN A KENNEL! 4 million dogs get put to sleep each year...our choices contribute to those statistics.

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post #14 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-16-2008, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clipclop View Post
dobesanddragons- thats for saying what I was trying to say... that is what I meant- with or without a degree, homework wasn't done on part of the OP... I have a grad degree and I came this close to purchasing a dobie from a bad breeder until I was informed by the people on this site. (grad degree and all- hee hee)
I understand. I guess I was just put off by the poster implying since they had grad degrees their choice of buying from a puppy mill was an educated decision.

Perhaps I read it wrong. I am sick this weekend and probably shouldn't post at all really, at least not anything that requires much thought...

My own parents bybred Dobes, I didn't know any better, but did a ton of research before buying my own Dobe, otherwise, I would have been like most people when it came to buying.

My intention was not to try to make the person feel bad for buying from Kimbertal, they are not the first and won't be the last.


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post #15 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-17-2008, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobesanddragons View Post
...

My intention was not to try to make the person feel bad for buying from Kimbertal, they are not the first and won't be the last.
I also am very sorry if I insulted the poster who has a Kimbertal puppy. I myself contacted Kimbertal when I was first looking for a puppy. It was a very weird call - the woman evaded all questions about health testing and would not explain why they had 16 puppies currently advertised from 5 different litters. When I saw photos of the place I realized it was a huge puppy mill, even though everything looked clean and neat. I have had dog experience since I was very young so I was tipped off but I can see where a novice dog owner might miss the signs. Again, I am sorry if my post came off offensive. I am too emotional when it comes to the topic of puppy farming. I am sure the poster loves his/her dog to death and did not consciously support a business which prospers on the backs of many miserable dogs. OK, I'm getting off of my grandstand now.

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post #16 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-17-2008, 01:42 PM
 
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I remember years and years ago, probably 25 years ago anyway. I recall seeing Kimbertal ads in the back of Sports Afield Magzines. At that time it reminded me of a Puppy Mill, just pumping out pups and it was merely a business. I don't think they give a squat about lineage at all? For the life of me I cannot see how they command such high dollar for the end results, I think $2500 I have seen floating around on their website at one time or another. I would like to see the Kennel Investigated somehow and shut down. Of course this is just my opinion!

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post #17 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-17-2008, 05:12 PM
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I understand. I guess I was just put off by the poster implying since they had grad degrees their choice of buying from a puppy mill was an educated decision.
D&D - I felt the same way when I read that and I think ClipClop did too.

The decision to purchase from Kimbertal was theirs, and they are happy with their Dobe. But I'm very curious to know how this post-graduate research correlates with and influenced their choice.

"I will lend to you for awhile, a Doberman pup," God said...
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post #18 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-17-2008, 09:33 PM
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D&D - I felt the same way when I read that and I think ClipClop did too.

The decision to purchase from Kimbertal was theirs, and they are happy with their Dobe. But I'm very curious to know how this post-graduate research correlates with and influenced their choice.
I think we are all very happy that the OP was happy with his purchase from Kimbertal- its sad hearing stories from here by people that didnt have the same experience. Best of luck to him and his doberbaby... didn't mean to come across as rude, which I guess I did... I just didn't care for the grad degree comment.
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post #19 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-18-2008, 08:35 AM
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I think we are all very happy that the OP was happy with his purchase from Kimbertal- its sad hearing stories from here by people that didnt have the same experience. Best of luck to him and his doberbaby... didn't mean to come across as rude, which I guess I did... I just didn't care for the grad degree comment.
I found it interesting that he thought posting about his graduate "whatevers" was more impressive than what his actual research had been regarding Dobermans and breeders out there. Meaning, he didn't do a whole lot of research at all, and HELLO?
I could say I am nuclear physicist, or anyone else I want to be on the internet. Whoop.


You don't have to own a Dobe to know that health issues usually start rearing its ugly head after a year.
I hope and pray his dog will be healthy.
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post #20 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 11:16 PM
 
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Resources

I have suggested to my wife for a long time to do an independent research on Doberman breeders...everyone you can find, everywhere in the US.
Research how many have titled dogs. How many have health tested dogs, what tests, and what results. How many breed more than one litter a year, and other figures like that.

Put all of that raw unopinionated data into a searchable engine where a prospective dob owner can find out for themself who is a reliable breeder, and who to avoid. It would be the most objective source available. Probably a good group project for an active doberman club.
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post #21 of 133 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 12:49 AM
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This would be great in theory the problem comes in application. People with things to hide are not going to be easy to trace open and honest in sharing of information. Some do not even report it as income why would they suddenly give anyone the ammo to use against them?

The ofa database and dobequest already do these things and while they are improving over time they are still dependent on what breeders report. Look at how many dogs that obviously died years ago but there is no cause of death, and if there were how would the source be deemed crediable or not? Is an owner reported cause of death equal to one by a vet?

It would be a daunting task to research every breeding dogs records and verify titles claimed. You would have to deal with each titleing agency and be dependent upon thier databases to even verify. Some things like schutzund titles are not akc santioned but are done under other groups.

Conformation would also be a task, there are several different groups you can obtain conformation titles under.

Not all databases are open databases to even supply this mass database.

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Originally Posted by LouisApolda View Post
I have suggested to my wife for a long time to do an independent research on Doberman breeders...everyone you can find, everywhere in the US.
Research how many have titled dogs. How many have health tested dogs, what tests, and what results. How many breed more than one litter a year, and other figures like that.

Put all of that raw unopinionated data into a searchable engine where a prospective dob owner can find out for themself who is a reliable breeder, and who to avoid. It would be the most objective source available. Probably a good group project for an active doberman club.

Last edited by Dobemom2b; 02-21-2008 at 12:52 AM.
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post #22 of 133 (permalink) Old 05-03-2008, 01:01 AM
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I visited Kimbertal a few months ago. It sure was clean and the people were nice. But the prices were a bit outrageous all things considered. Their health guarantee doesn't guarantee all that much if you're like an average pet owner who spays/neuters. In fact, if you're like that, you get guaranteed nothing.

When I went in there, I was a bit disturbed at the amount of puppies there. Of course, they were all cute(!) but what puppy isn't? There was numerous litters of both Dobermans and Rottweilers. And a few of the Dobermans were missing large portions of hair, which, they said was because the people who raised them gave them unpasteurized milk? That kind of made me go ..huh? Isn't that unhealthy? I mean I thought the process of pasteurization was to make the milk healthier but hey.. what do I know?
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post #23 of 133 (permalink) Old 05-03-2008, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMax View Post
Do these people have any clue that there is NO such thing as TRI-international champion (Wiking di Perlanera)? Since when dogs started getting titles like that? And this is on every advertising they have in print!
I think they go for anything that will sell their pups, honestly.

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post #24 of 133 (permalink) Old 05-03-2008, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by juliabustard View Post
I visited Kimbertal a few months ago. It sure was clean and the people were nice. But the prices were a bit outrageous all things considered. Their health guarantee doesn't guarantee all that much if you're like an average pet owner who spays/neuters. In fact, if you're like that, you get guaranteed nothing.

When I went in there, I was a bit disturbed at the amount of puppies there. Of course, they were all cute(!) but what puppy isn't? There was numerous litters of both Dobermans and Rottweilers. And a few of the Dobermans were missing large portions of hair, which, they said was because the people who raised them gave them unpasteurized milk? That kind of made me go ..huh? Isn't that unhealthy? I mean I thought the process of pasteurization was to make the milk healthier but hey.. what do I know?
Huh? We have a dairy farm...never heard of that one. My husband always drinks raw milk, has since he was a kid. I do not give the raw milk to pups because it is too rich for one thing,and they would get the trots. Also, since it isn't processed it may have bacteria that their little bodies are not strong enough to fight off. I would think more that the missing hair is due to low thyroid, common in some bitches after whelping.

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post #25 of 133 (permalink) Old 05-03-2008, 11:47 AM
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Anybody who does not breed to the Standard and produces multiple litters every year, is Only doing it to make money, no matter how 'clean' their setup is, they are not doing it to 'improve' on our breed. I remember 35 years ago when I was looking for my first pup, i contacted many breeders, one of which was Kimbertal, they were breeding HUGE dobes back then, and they are still doing it.
Rauschund, I agree with you, I was raised on unpasterized milk too. if you keep your barn and cows clean and healthy and process the milk quickly and sterilize your equipment, your milk is safe {but yes too rich for puppies}. Pasturizing, kills everything the good and the bad. That is why they must add vitamins back to milk after it has been pasturized.

Last edited by Darkevs; 05-03-2008 at 12:12 PM.
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