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post #1 of 58 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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question about a breeder

can anyone help me. i saw this breeder on the DPCA website. we live in VA and i have just started looking around. here's the link to their PUPPY INFO LINK: is it normal to have the buyers pay for the vWD test?

Puppy Info
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post #2 of 58 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 03:10 PM
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Read that page.
Ridiculous... If the dog is affected, you can either accept it and NOT breed or retest the dog. They are basically excusing themselves for using affected dogs in breeding. Shame...
I can understand getting the buyer to pay for the vWD test if he wants to know if the pup is a clear or a carrier in a clear-carrier combination. But I would never charge if there was even a slight chance of the dog being affected.
Funny thing about vetgen, my male who tested carrier produces only clear pups... how is that?

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post #3 of 58 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by hlm04 View Post
can anyone help me. i saw this breeder on the DPCA website. we live in VA and i have just started looking around. here's the link to their PUPPY INFO LINK: is it normal to have the buyers pay for the vWD test?

Puppy Info
i'd say offhand that these folk don't want to understand the basic genetics of vWD in the doberman. but that's neither here nor there--& didn't answer your question.

there really isn't any "normal" when it comes to vWD testing of puppies prior to their sale.

i know breeders who test the entire litter if there is any sort of question as to what the status might be. i know breeders who only test pups they keep even though they test all of their own dogs before they are bred. and i know breeders who simply don't test the puppies at all. the breeders i know all pretty much test prior to breeding any more. but not all of them test the puppies.

personally some of my dogs came to me tested but more did not. i test even when i "know" what the status will be (one of my dogs was the product of a clear x affected breeding--all those puppies were going to be carriers) i test because there has been the occasional lab error--even though there hasn't been one in some time it's like wearing suspenders & a belt...ya' know?

as to the cost--if anyone doesn't know you should always be able to find a clinic so that you can get a dog tested for $99 instead of $140. and vet gen will do a breeder litter discount for as few as three puppies for the $99 per dog price.
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post #4 of 58 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CMax View Post
Funny thing about vetgen, my male who tested carrier produces only clear pups... how is that?
Entirely possible if the bitch is clear. If you're breeding, shouldn't you know that?
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post #5 of 58 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 11:17 PM
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Entirely possible if the bitch is clear. If you're breeding, shouldn't you know that?
Also possible with carrier to carrier breeding.
Most breeders that I know of don't test the puppies unless there is a chance of them being affected. vWD isn't a serious disease in Dobermans unless of course you happen to have one that is clinically affected. Then it is a big deal. But affected dogs are also something that could be very easy to eliminate in Dobermans.

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post #6 of 58 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 11:22 PM
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Well, what most people dont know is that to be a carrier means the gene is heterozygous. That means that if bread with another carrier there are the following possible outcomes:

Carrier
Affected
Clear

A Carrier (heterozygous) bred with Affected (homozygous dominant) can produce:

Carrier
Affected

Affected to Affected will only produce Affected

Clear to Carrier cannot yield an affected dog ...

Clear
Carrier are the only two possibilities

... if I recall my genetics accurately... its been a LONG time

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post #7 of 58 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by clipclop View Post
Well, what most people dont know is that to be a carrier means the gene is heterozygous. That means that if bread with another carrier there are the following possible outcomes:

Carrier
Affected
Clear

A Carrier (heterozygous) bred with Affected (homozygous dominant) can produce:

Carrier
Affected

Affected to Affected will only produce Affected

Clear to Carrier cannot yield an affected dog ...

Clear
Carrier are the only two possibilities

... if I recall my genetics accurately... its been a LONG time
I think you got it all right except one thing ClipClop - vWD is an autosomal recessive disease - which is why carriers won't be "clinically affected" because they carry one good copy, dominant to the mutated recessive allele. Otherwise, nice work
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post #8 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-01-2008, 12:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CMax View Post
Read that page.
Ridiculous... If the dog is affected, you can either accept it and NOT breed or retest the dog. They are basically excusing themselves for using affected dogs in breeding. Shame...
I can understand getting the buyer to pay for the vWD test if he wants to know if the pup is a clear or a carrier in a clear-carrier combination. But I would never charge if there was even a slight chance of the dog being affected.
Funny thing about vetgen, my male who tested carrier produces only clear pups... how is that?

Personally, I didn't see any where on that page that said they were breeding carrier to carrier or even affected dogs. As a matter of fact, I know they don't. The dogs/bitches in their breeding program have been tested and are either carrier or clear. To my knowledge, they do not breed affected dogs at all. What they did, was wonder aloud to prospective buyers about the unreliability of some tests and the fact that vetgen can not give them the answers to their particular questions. They do not discourage testing, they simply don't offer the test on their pups because they already know their dogs will either be clear or carrier.

I wouldn't discount them as a prospective breeder on this alone. JMO.
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post #9 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-01-2008, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by VaBtrfly View Post
Personally, I didn't see any where on that page that said they were breeding carrier to carrier or even affected dogs. As a matter of fact, I know they don't. The dogs/bitches in their breeding program have been tested and are either carrier or clear. To my knowledge, they do not breed affected dogs at all. What they did, was wonder aloud to prospective buyers about the unreliability of some tests and the fact that vetgen can not give them the answers to their particular questions. They do not discourage testing, they simply don't offer the test on their pups because they already know their dogs will either be clear or carrier.

I wouldn't discount them as a prospective breeder on this alone. JMO.
i didn't find any place on their website where they gave vWD status on any dog.

in fact vet gen can & has explained to breeders who called & asked why vWD affected dogs, in dobermans, are not ALL clinically affected (are not all symptomatic; do not all have bleeding issues). it sounded to me from what was written in the vWD section that they asked vet gen & didn't like or didn't understand the answer.

i listed a number of things that were NOT present on their website which would make me discard them as a prospect when it came to buying a puppy.

most of my dogs have not been vWD tested when i got them--that didn't bother me--not having registered names, not having pedigrees, not showing test results (if tested) did bother me.

and the vaguaries of the gene pool are such that when i was looking up vWD status on a dog several years ago i noticed that someone had clearly bred carriers & had tested the entire litter (10 puppies--i assume it was the entire litter) and had 9 clear & one carrier puppy. the figures are averages & you need a lot of dogs to see that statistical average work out. i also know of a litter of six puppies from a carrier to carrier breeding who all turned out to be affected. sometimes it's just the luck of the genetic draw.
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post #10 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-01-2008, 05:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
i didn't find any place on their website where they gave vWD status on any dog.

i listed a number of things that were NOT present on their website which would make me discard them as a prospect when it came to buying a puppy.

Quote:
most of my dogs have not been vWD tested when i got them--that didn't bother me--not having registered names, not having pedigrees, not showing test results (if tested) did bother me.
No offense intended but, are we looking at the same web site? I'm asking because I clearly see registered names throughout the web site. As far as not having their pedigree listed on the web site, that happens with many breeders including the most reputable ones. The same can be said of the lack of listings for health testing. Would it be better if they did? Sure. However, they do offer to furnish the pedigree as well as testing results to anyone who requests it and they do give a full pedigree to their new puppy parents. Are they guilty of not having the most informative web site around? Maybe. Again, I hardly see where this alone rules them out. Of course, this is just my opinion which is based on my actual knowledge of the breeder vs. the general public looking at a web site alone.

Quote:
and the vaguaries of the gene pool are such that when i was looking up vWD status on a dog several years ago i noticed that someone had clearly bred carriers & had tested the entire litter (10 puppies--i assume it was the entire litter) and had 9 clear & one carrier puppy. the figures are averages & you need a lot of dogs to see that statistical average work out. i also know of a litter of six puppies from a carrier to carrier breeding who all turned out to be affected. sometimes it's just the luck of the genetic draw.
They don't breed carrier to carrier. They don't breed affecteds. They breed clear to clear or carrier to clear. I see what you're driving at though, and agree that it would be better for everyone involved (including themselves) to list that information "along with" their opinions on vetgen's vWD testing. I'll shoot them over an email, and suggest it to them.
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post #11 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-01-2008, 06:41 PM
 
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I just spent a fair amount of time looking over their website and so far the only thing I dont like is their disregard for the validity of VetGen testing and making the buyers pay to test the vWD status of the pups. It would be different if they bred a clear to a carrier but that is not disclosed. If it was a carrier to carrier (or God forbid anything that invloves an affected dog to anything other than a clear) breeding then they need to be responsible to disclose that information to the buyers.

I cannot discredit them by their site alone. This is one of those situations that requires a good long call to the breeder for you to determine if they measure up in your eyes.

Trust your instincts. If your gut tells you something isnt right it probably isnt.

Good luck with your puppy search!
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post #12 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-01-2008, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
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thank you all for your opinions. really makes you think about everything! i will take all this into consideration
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post #13 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-01-2008, 07:20 PM
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There is just no where near enough information on there. If it was me I would just go on to another place with more information listed. Why should I waste my time searching for information that should be easily accessed on their site.
At the least they need pedigree, health tests, pictures of dogs to make a person want to know more.
I am not advising you against them, I am just saying they need more info on their site to help people trying to decide on a breeder.

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post #14 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlm04 View Post
can anyone help me. i saw this breeder on the DPCA website. we live in VA and i have just started looking around. here's the link to their PUPPY INFO LINK: is it normal to have the buyers pay for the vWD test?

Puppy Info
There is no set rule as to who pays for the VWD testing on a puppy/dog. That is talked about when discussing a puppy/dog purchase.(if the breeder does it, it is usually reflected in the price of the puppy).
Like others have said if one of the parents is a clear, there will never be any affected in the litter. If both parents are carrier, than there is a 25% CHANCE, (NOT ABSOLUTE THOUGH), that a puppy could be affected. (My last litter of 9, that were tested, with a carrier to carrier breeding, had 7 carriers, and 1 clear, no affecteds, cause the 9th one was eliza tested and found normal ranges.)
Statistically only about 15% of Dobes are Clear, 50% carrier, and 35% affected. Now that is just in theory, so it would be practically impossible to come up with a whole society of Dobes that are clear, when most breedings done are carrier to carrier.
This worrying about vwd has gotten way out of hand as far as jq public is concerned. The number of Dobes that have died directly from the VWD disease, is so few in comparison to Dobes that die from Cardio, and Cancer.
Not buying a puppy because they are affected (dna, but not clinical), is like a person not wanting to marry a wonderful prospective mate, because they have a different blood type then them.
If a purchased puppy is tested and found to be affected, that doesn't mean doom and gloom, it just means your vet keeps that in the dogs records, and does clotting times, blood tests, gives vit k before any (if needed, like neuter or spay) surgeries. Just knowing gives the vet a choice on the plan of action before anything is done.
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post #15 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retta View Post
If a purchased puppy is tested and found to be affected, that doesn't mean doom and gloom, it just means your vet keeps that in the dogs records, and does clotting times, blood tests, gives vit k before any (if needed, like neuter or spay) surgeries. Just knowing gives the vet a choice on the plan of action before anything is done.
But the cost of the tests before any surgery, increased prices for spay and neuters plus the plasma they want to have on hand during surgeries is something a lot of people don't want to deal with. Why should you, when you can get a carrier or clear puppy and not have to worry about all this addtional stuff.
I think it was lanabana that got a price quote for neutering her boy of over $1000. That is a lot of additional money.

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post #16 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megs View Post
I think you got it all right except one thing ClipClop - vWD is an autosomal recessive disease - which is why carriers won't be "clinically affected" because they carry one good copy, dominant to the mutated recessive allele. Otherwise, nice work
Thanks - I agree and I thought that was what I was posting... but a carrier breeding with a carrier could produce affected offspring could they not?
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post #17 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 12:26 PM
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I have to agree with Retta.....I guess because I've owned 4 affected dogs with absolutely no problems. They died of cardio and cancer. I suppose I have gotten in the routine of the extra care needed and do not mind the extra expense.

It obviously is a personal choice of the consumer. The buyer should be able to be told the status of the puppy, whether they or the breeder do the testing. I guess my take on the situation is that I am already spending a few thousand....what is $100 more for the test? I've done the test and I've also had a breeder who had done the testing prior to the pups going to their homes.
I would never rule out a puppy which had every quality I liked except an affected status on the vwd test. I have had Dobes for 30 years and I agree that there are much bigger issues healthwise that cripple and kill this dog at an early age.

Edit: I think my perspective as far as who pays the cost of the vwd test stems from my other passion....horses. In the horse world, the buyer absorbs a lot of the costs of a horse purchase. If a buyer does a "prepurchase exam" on a prospective horse and the horse does not work out, the buyer is out the $300-$500 cost of the exam and radiographs done at that time. Then they keep looking and do the same exam on another horse, etc.

Secondly, I can agree that to a novice dog/ Doberman owner owning a clear or carrier animal is a lot easier and maintenance free. For an educated and experienced owner, the status seems less important to me.

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post #18 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaBtrfly View Post
They don't breed carrier to carrier. They don't breed affecteds. They breed clear to clear or carrier to clear. I see what you're driving at though, and agree that it would be better for everyone involved (including themselves) to list that information "along with" their opinions on vetgen's vWD testing. I'll shoot them over an email, and suggest it to them.
hi vabtrfly,

actually i stand corrected--i went back to the site & did find registered names--by going through the entire website.

it's one of those things--i don't know why the best websites belong to the worst breeders.

if i'm looking at a website what i want to see is the dog they are talking about w/a link to that dogs pedigree. if they are giving information about either a litter or an individual puppy for sale i prefer to see a link showing health testing which has been done on the sire & dam and i for sure want to see a pedigree on the litter or puppy.

mind you i'm probably more capable than most of going & looking up health results & i do regularly but the above is what i hope to see on a website.

the comment that i made about genetics & statistics was actually general information since someone had earlier wondered how it was that their carrier dog was able to sire clear offspring.

other than the vWD stuff i think, having gone back over the site the worst they are guilty of is having a disorganized site w/not much information about the health testing results on their own dogs.
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post #19 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 12:59 PM
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I would agree that it is a disorganized site, but they do state on their Upcoming Litters page that: "PUPPIES CANNOT BE VWD AFFECTED BY PARENTAGE".

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post #20 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retta View Post
If a purchased puppy is tested and found to be affected, that doesn't mean doom and gloom, it just means your vet keeps that in the dogs records, and does clotting times, blood tests, gives vit k before any (if needed, like neuter or spay) surgeries. Just knowing gives the vet a choice on the plan of action before anything is done.
(vWD = von Willebrand's Disease)

Vitamin K will only help w/ the vitamin K-dependent clotting factors (II, VII, IX, X).

A BMBT (buccal mucosal bleeding time) is the best in house screening test prior to surgery as this assesses platelet function as opposed to just numbers of platelets (an estimate can be determined from a blood smear). In vWD the platelets do not function properly and therefore the animal does not clot properly.
Treatment for vWD includes: DDAVP, cryoprecipitate (ideal) (other options inclde fresh frozen plasma or whole blood), making sure thyroid levels are normal. Some dogs w/ vWD are also Factor VIII deficient as well.

Just because a dog is "affected" does not mean it will need any of these things or any treatment whatsoever. Regular thyroid screening is important in any dobe, but even more so in an "affected" dobe. Like Retta said, knowing BEFORE you have to have a surgery so that you can make sure your vet is prepared makes a world of difference. We are in a major metro area w/ a local "animal blood bank", but some products are not stored and they call in the donors and need to prepare the product (platelet rich plasma, fresh whole blood) so it may take a few hours to get a product. Frozen products are easy to store so they have those readily available. Also, at our clinic if we are going to perform a surgery where we think there's a possibility we might need to transfuse the patient, one of the staff brings in a dog to use as a donor and we always keep the equipment for collection/administration of a whole blood transfusion on hand.

Bleeding Disorders - WSAVA 2005 Congress

Von Willebrand's Disease - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

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post #21 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda H View Post
But the cost of the tests before any surgery, increased prices for spay and neuters plus the plasma they want to have on hand during surgeries is something a lot of people don't want to deal with. Why should you, when you can get a carrier or clear puppy and not have to worry about all this addtional stuff.
I've never been willing to buy an affected puppy. Other than Razzle (who came from a clear x carrier breeding and thus couldn't be affected), every puppy I've ever purchased was vWD tested as a condition of the sale.

I think I've said this until I feel blue in the face...although vWD isn't often a problem, when it does rear it's ugly head it's a BIG PROBLEM. Been down that road once with a dog I bred, and won't EVER, EVER go down that road again. The expense was the least of it, the fear when you're told your dog is hemorhaging just isn't worth it.

Personally I think the only way people will ever stop producing affected puppies is when consumers start refusing to buy them on a large scale.




Last edited by Murreydobe; 02-02-2008 at 03:40 PM.
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post #22 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 03:49 PM
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I personally would not BUY an affected dog either. My show pup is from a Clear x Affected breeding, so is a carrier. I knew that her pedigree had more vWD than some (her breeder was very up front about this), but also had less cardio and better longevity and that was important to me.
If everything works out and she is bred, it will only be to a Clear dog as I don't want to produce affecteds and murphy's law says that the pup I'd want to keep would end up being affected. I just don't want to take that chance. Will it make it harder to find a potential stud dog? Yes, but so is life.
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post #23 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 04:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Murreydobe View Post

I think I've said this until I feel blue in the face...although vWD isn't often a problem, when it does rear it's ugly head it's a BIG PROBLEM. Been down that road once with a dog I bred, and won't EVER, EVER go down that road again. The expense was the least of it, the fear when you're told your dog is hemorhaging just isn't worth it.

Personally I think the only way people will ever stop producing affected puppies is when consumers start refusing to buy them on a large scale.

same way i'm thinking about it. i just want to be safer than sorry and find a healthy dog even though cardio and cancer are higher on my list of worries.

i think i have a better understanding of how vWD affects them now...thanks all!

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post #24 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 07:10 PM
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Lexx is from a carrier to clear breeding and therefore cannot be affected, however, he did't come with a vwd test. I'd have to pay for it myself. I didn't think that was abnormal...

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post #25 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-02-2008, 07:43 PM
 
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[QUOTE=dobebug;125148]hi vabtrfly,

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actually i stand corrected--i went back to the site & did find registered names--by going through the entire website.
Yeah, it's easy to miss that kind of thing when attempting to answer a very valid question in a reasonable amount of time, lol. Which you did do a great job of, BTW.

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it's one of those things--i don't know why the best websites belong to the worst breeders.
LOL! Didn't you get that memo? It's because they don't waste time doing all that other less important stuff like.... titling, health testing, etc. Frees up their time for building the perfect illusion for unsuspecting buyers, lol.

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if i'm looking at a website what i want to see is the dog they are talking about w/a link to that dogs pedigree. if they are giving information about either a litter or an individual puppy for sale i prefer to see a link showing health testing which has been done on the sire & dam and i for sure want to see a pedigree on the litter or puppy.
TBH, I happen to agree with you on that. It would be optimum if every breeder would include this information. It would make it easier for prospective owners.

Quote:
mind you i'm probably more capable than most of going & looking up health results & i do regularly but the above is what i hope to see on a website.
Again, it would make it much easier for less experienced prospective owners.

Quote:
the comment that i made about genetics & statistics was actually general information since someone had earlier wondered how it was that their carrier dog was able to sire clear offspring.
It was valuable information and I'm sure the OP among others appreciated it, myself included.

Take care,
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