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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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breeder breeding practice

Would you consider a breeder breeding, AFFECTED, bitch ,an irresponible , bad breeder, or is this a normal practice.The reason i'm asking is ,the bitch i'm getting my puppy from has been bred for the third time . My breeder told me that the bitch never had excessive bleeding problems delivering her litters.
The bitch is 5 yrs old. The sire of my puppy is a USA champion. He is a carrier.
Here is health test record for bitch.
Cardio 33%
Cerf.. normal
waiting for ofa and thyroid.
Thank you...
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 07:18 PM
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What I would be concerned about is that if the sire is a carrier and the dam is affected, then the puppies have a 50% chance of being affected.

Typically if affected dogs are bred, they are bred to a clear so that the whole litter is carrier.

I would definitely want a vWD dna (vetgen) test on the pup before you buy it so you know what you're getting.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 09:54 PM
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Nothing wrong with breeding an affected bitch but they should be looking for a clear dog in my opinion.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 09:57 PM
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I agree with jdd. IF the bitch isn't symptomatic, as whelping a litter could be problematic for a bitch with real clotting issues.

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muski-joe View Post
Would you consider a breeder breeding, AFFECTED, bitch ,an irresponible , bad breeder, or is this a normal practice.The reason i'm asking is ,the bitch i'm getting my puppy from has been bred for the third time . My breeder told me that the bitch never had excessive bleeding problems delivering her litters.
The bitch is 5 yrs old. The sire of my puppy is a USA champion. He is a carrier.
Here is health test record for bitch.
Cardio 33%
Cerf.. normal
waiting for ofa and thyroid.
Thank you...
IMHO, breeding a healthy affected bitch is not a big deal if she herself has a lot to offer the breed. However, I personally would only breed her to a clear male.

I know, I know that VWD is not a killer, very few Dobermans are actually clinically affected, and there are MUCH worse things in our breed than vwd. BUT, I have seen a clinically affected breeder - a rescue foster girl I had for 3 months as a puppy.... losing puppy teeth and surgery while she was with me - it was an ugly thing to deal with. After personally going through that, I just am not interested in ever being responsible for possibly producing it. I don't think affecteds should be culled out of our breeding programs at this point, but I think we need to continue to work towards an ultimate goal of not producing affecteds. There are times when the best breeding decision is going to be a carrier to a carrier - in theory producing 25% affecteds.... for some breeders this is an acceptable risk and I don't judge them for that. However, a 50% risk is just way too much for me. JMHO

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 10:40 PM
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I think this is something you're going to get a variety of different answers with.

I personally wouldn't use an affected bitch for breeding or breed to an affected stud dog. But it's not anything I'm going to do any finger pointing about.

I *do* think if someone is going to use a breeding combination that has the chance of producing affected puppies, then they have an obligation to dna test all the puppies prior to sale. Puppy buyers should be able to make an informed choice about whether they want to buy an affected puppy or not (I wouldn't).



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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2008, 07:41 PM
 
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What about an carrier to carrier breeding? Any thoughts?
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2008, 10:48 PM
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I wouldnt breed an affected to a carrier- but I wouldnt turn down a pup from an affected/clear breeding
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2008, 11:24 PM
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I personally wouldn't do a carrier to carrier, but I say that as a rank novice. It would have to be one HELL of a pedigree for me to even consider it. Having the chance of a clinically affected puppy is not a risk I would want to take. As far as I'm concerned, there are other fish in the sea. If you can't find what you want out now, look towards frozen.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2008, 11:34 PM
 
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but some of the dogs available thru frozen were from a time when the dna test wasn't available, so you have a good chance, it seems to me, of finding out they weren't really clear even if that was what was thought when they were alive.
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2008, 11:53 PM
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Before I jam my foot in my mouth, when was the vetgen test introduced?
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 12:31 AM
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I'm not too keen on breeding affected dogs to carriers either. Additionally, I agree with the others that breeders who make the decision to do so should determine the vWd status in advance of sale. Of course I can see where this might make placement of these puppies more difficult, but I still think it's their duty to act responsibly here since they have bred animals which will produce affected offspring.

Frankly, now that we have the genetic testing for vWd we should work harder to reduce the number of affected dogs in the gene pool.


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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 09:48 AM
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jatango - I believe the vWD DNA test was introduced in 1998. While breeding vWD affected may not be ideal, it is but one factor when considering breeding. Other health considerations, temperament, structure, dilution, etc.; all must be weighed when breeding.
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 12:57 PM
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The first VetGen test I ran was done in mid 1997. I believe the test came out the year before, in 1996.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
The first VetGen test I ran was done in mid 1997. I believe the test came out the year before, in 1996.
The Vetgen rep announced that the marker had been found at the DPCA National in Oct. 1996. The test became available a few months after that, in early 1997.

I can say that with absolute certainty because Thunder's litter was born in July 1996, the parents were tested with the only test available at that time, the ELISA test. They were just a few months old when the announcement was made at the National, and Zac was dna tested as affected when he was less than a year old.



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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 07:49 PM
 
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Why is VetGen the only one to do the DNA testing for vWD?
I know with horses, (any one familiar with HyPP?) UC Davis was the only one that the associations would accept test results from. Now there are several that they accept results from.
The test range from $35 to $50 dollars for this DNA test. Why so high for vWD testing? Is it because VetGen is the only one doing it so they can set the price whereever?
Thanks
Lotty
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannagooddobe View Post
Why is VetGen the only one to do the DNA testing for vWD?
I know with horses, (any one familiar with HyPP?) UC Davis was the only one that the associations would accept test results from. Now there are several that they accept results from.
The test range from $35 to $50 dollars for this DNA test. Why so high for vWD testing? Is it because VetGen is the only one doing it so they can set the price whereever?
Thanks
Lotty

The marker for the vWD mutation was found by researchers at Michigan State University..they hold the patent on the actual location where this marker can be found. Vetgen is the only entity licensed by Michigan State to market this test in the US.

Another company offered a dna test for doberman vWD for awhile, and their tests were sold for considerably less (like $100 difference). There was a big lawsuit, and this other company was found guilty of patent violation.



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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-29-2008, 09:19 PM
 
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Thanks Murreydobe. I wonder why the don't license anyone else to do this.
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-29-2008, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannagooddobe View Post
Thanks Murreydobe. I wonder why the don't license anyone else to do this.
$$$$$

Some of the people involved with Vetgen are the actual researchers from Michigan State who found the marker..it's a pretty cozy arrangement. Right now they're charging $140 for a test that costs them less than $10 to run, and where the company had little to no development costs for the test...the MSU research was paid for by funding from entities like the DPCA and the Morris Foundation.



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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-01-2008, 07:19 PM
 
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Thats nice of them. Not! I think more would test if they didn't charge that much. Even the vWD clinics are still $99 or so .. thats still an $80 + mark up.
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