What's wrong with Hoytt? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 06:55 AM Thread Starter
 
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What's wrong with Hoytt?

I've been reading through a lot of threads and have found that the majority of DT members don't like Hoytt at all. The only reason I've really found is that he's a "mass producer".
So, I took a gander at his site and although he doesn't have a page that lists all of the dogs he owns, there are many dogs produced by him showcased on his site which does lead me to believe he's had many a litter in his time.
Anyway, other than that, I didn't see anything really bad, instead a lot of good stuff:
  • He health tests. Claims that hip dysplasia is "literally non-existent in Hoytt Dobes" when it comes down to the breeding (environment after placement excluded, understandable)
  • Has good vet references
  • Trains and titles his dogs, even sells trained dogs. Titles can be seen here. So, he's got a lot of dogs, but they're not just sitting around doing nothing.
  • Does not endorse the white Dobe ("Have I changed my opinion about 'whites' since first taking a stand against them? No! For one should be breeding for improvement not novelty." I think everyone here would back his statement, right?)
  • Has a seven year health guarantee as long as you provide vet documents to show you've taken care of the dog
  • Will take back any of his dogs if they can't stay with their owner for whatever reason
  • Has an extensive amount of informative material on the Doberman.
With all of that info, he seems like a pretty decent guy.
He does have an "application" and takes credit cards, though, which I know no one here is fond of. Very business-like, I agree, but would be handy if you were the one getting numerous emails with minimal information from seemingly shady characters. Anyway, the application is very involved and detailed (down to the square footage of your yard) and will provide him with plenty of information about the buyer and what he/she plans to do with the Dobe.

So, what's up?

Has anyone here met any of his dogs? Green horns growing out of their heads or something? :biggrin55

Last edited by DoberLu; 12-15-2007 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Typo
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post #2 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 07:28 AM
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What working or confirmation titles do they have? All their sires and dams should at the very minimum be titled in SchH or have their Ch in Confirmation before they are bred.

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post #3 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 07:40 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Luvbirds59 View Post
What working or confirmation titles do they have? All their sires and dams should at the very minimum be titled in SchH or have their Ch in Confirmation before they are bred.
I don't know what exactly they have, I'm not an expert on Hoytt Dobermans. That's why I posted this.
And, yes, I agree the parents should be proven before breeding if he plans on selling them as an "American Bred Super Dobe" or whatever he says.

Edit: I looked around his site again and found loads of titles. http://www.hoytt.com/grandvictors.htm At the bottom of that pages lists all of the titled dogs.

Last edited by DoberLu; 12-15-2007 at 07:43 AM.
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post #4 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 08:41 AM
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You need to know about the sire and dams titles....not the prodigy. Ask to see the Pedigrees of both parents, they should list all titles.

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post #5 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 10:29 AM
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He health tests. Claims that hip dysplasia is "literally non-existent in Hoytt Dobes" when it comes down to the breeding (environment after placement excluded, understandable)
BS. Do a search for his breeding on OFA's website and tell me how he can possibly make that claim.

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Has good vet references
So does my neighbor that breeds her chihuhua/pomeranian cross to her miniture poodle every year for "designer" puppies. What does a vet reference have to do with producing quality dobermans?

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Trains and titles his dogs, even sells trained dogs. Titles can be seen here. So, he's got a lot of dogs, but they're not just sitting around doing nothing.
When we say titles, we mean meaningful titles that tell something about the genetics of the dog. Just about any dog of any breed or quality of breeding can complete basic obedience titles.

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Does not endorse the white Dobe
Great, but how does that make him a breeder of quality dogs?

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Has a seven year health guarantee as long as you provide vet documents to show you've taken care of the dog
Better guarantee than your average puppy mill, but still doesn't make him a breeder of quality dobermans.

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Will take back any of his dogs if they can't stay with their owner for whatever reason
As he should, but how does that translate into quality dobermans?

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Has an extensive amount of informative material on the Doberman
And that right there is the crux of it. People get snowed by really nice websites all the time. They really don't have a clue what to really look for.


Last edited by Julie W; 12-15-2007 at 10:31 AM.
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post #6 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 10:29 AM
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What he states on his website isn't exactly what always happens in real life - it is, after all, just a website. Hoytt is a business, not a breeder. Ask rescues how many of his dogs he takes back if they are spayed/neutered. Ask some of his puppy owners how supportive he is if there are problems.

And his highest titles on his dogs are actually from his in house trainer - her dog won the TT a few years ago, but she is a trainer by profession.


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post #7 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 10:52 AM
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post #8 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
I don't know what exactly they have, I'm not an expert on Hoytt Dobermans. That's why I posted this.
And, yes, I agree the parents should be proven before breeding if he plans on selling them as an "American Bred Super Dobe" or whatever he says.

Edit: I looked around his site again and found loads of titles. http://www.hoytt.com/grandvictors.htm

At the bottom of that pages lists all of the titled dogs.
Personally I would not consider CD or BH behind the name as a REAL title. All it means is that the dog understands and can demonstrate some VERY basic exercises, part of it on leash, and not tear the evaluator's head off. Those are not real titles. In the Schutzhund world The BH is just an annoyance along the way to a title. I did not see any dogs listed with a schutzhund title.
Which would show that they can perform somewhat well under pressure.

I remember in an earlier post you downplayed the importance of a Ch/conformation title. To be honest, though I like a good looking Doberman, and I understand that the majority of people on this site have this as their major focus, I couldn't really care less about conformation titles. I do understand that if your main focus is conformation this would be necessary in the background. That is just a minor focus for me.

Now not everyone will agree with me and that is fine. I also am not in the AKC obedience realm so someone else needs to comment on this, but my understanding based on reading the rules is that even in that realm, it would take a while competing for a CDX to demonstrate that the dogs structure could hold up to more demanding obedience routines.

In the schutzhund world, a Sch, IPO, or VPG at least shows that it can (if it was a real trial and not a sham) demonstrate some more advanced obedience routines, track, and do protection work.

In the "Grand Victor" section, or whatever that BS section is, I saw one OB3 "title" which most likely means the dog developed a decent obedience ability but was too much of a shitter to pass the protection part of schutzhund.

I saw only one or two UD's which is further along on the obedience part.

Please understand these are just not demanding aspects of a working venue. Almost any dog can be made to pass. It is not demonstrating a dog's real ability to work. It means they are under control enough at the time of the evaluation to be a decent pet.
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post #9 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 12:56 PM
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I made a mistake of going with a Hoytt dog once. He claimed his blues had no coat problems, well she started to go go bald from the back. His training program lacks something, and she was a little shy. Live and Learn. She died of cardio at 8. Was the best ball catcher I've ever seen.
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post #10 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-15-2007, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
[LIST][*]He health tests. Claims that hip dysplasia is "literally non-existent in Hoytt Dobes" when it comes down to the breeding (environment after placement excluded, understandable)[*]Has good vet references[*]Trains and titles his dogs, even sells trained dogs. Titles can be seen here. So, he's got a lot of dogs, but they're not just sitting around doing nothing.[*]Does not endorse the white Dobe ("Have I changed my opinion about 'whites' since first taking a stand against them? No! For one should be breeding for improvement not novelty." I think everyone here would back his statement, right?)[*]Has a seven year health guarantee as long as you provide vet documents to show you've taken care of the dog
5
I would hardly call the occasional OFA hip result "health testing". He doesn't actually say that HE health tests, he says he guarantees them to pass OFA between 24 and 26 mos. BUT he also says that people don't need to have xrays done unless THEY perceive there to be a problem????
If you search the OFA data base for dobes w/ HOYTT in their name there are 35 entries... NOT 35 dogs, as a few have also had CERF testing. For the vast number of dogs he has bred and is breeding that is ridiculous. There is also no way to know if HE owns these dogs - the testing may have been done by people who bought dogs from him. It's easy to say the incidence of hip dysplasia is low in your line if you DON'T test for it.

And what about the all the other health issues? Elbows, CERF, thyroid, cardio, vWD, CAH, etc. Hips are only the tip of the iceberg so to speak.
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post #11 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 01:34 AM Thread Starter
 
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In regards to Julie W's entire post. Why are you asking questions about my question? I have no earthly idea about Hoytt which is exactly why I posted here. I saw nothing wrong with the website, it portrays him as a decent guy with decent dogs, but every person on his despises him. So, I wanted to know why. So, "...how does that make him a breeder of quality dogs?" is what I'm asking you. All of you, in fact, are the experts.

Quote:
I remember in an earlier post you downplayed the importance of a Ch/conformation title. To be honest, though I like a good looking Doberman, and I understand that the majority of people on this site have this as their major focus, I couldn't really care less about conformation titles. I do understand that if your main focus is conformation this would be necessary in the background. That is just a minor focus for me.
I didn't downplay the important of conformation, instead I asked why people who don't show/compete their dogs are condemned for breeding.

As for the info on titles, Rosamburg, good to know. I don't know what exactly it takes to get this or that, and he obviously doesn't explain...only drops the titles.

Quote:
Please understand these are just not demanding aspects of a working venue. Almost any dog can be made to pass. It is not demonstrating a dog's real ability to work. It means they are under control enough at the time of the evaluation to be a decent pet.
I do understand. I am not experienced in competeing dogs, but I do know it takes effort. And idiot can go through the motions, but they rarely achieve anything. I would actually like to get into Schutzhund, but it seems pretty much impossible at the moment, so I'm stuck on the sidelines and lacking in knowledge (which is why I am trying to gain as much information from experienced people here).


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I would hardly call the occasional OFA hip result "health testing". He doesn't actually say that HE health tests, he says he guarantees them to pass OFA between 24 and 26 mos.
Well, by guarunteeing the health of a dog, a buyer would assume that the proper tests were performed on the parents, ya know?

Quote:
If you search the OFA data base for dobes w/ HOYTT in their name there are 35 entries... NOT 35 dogs, as a few have also had CERF testing. For the vast number of dogs he has bred and is breeding that is ridiculous. There is also no way to know if HE owns these dogs - the testing may have been done by people who bought dogs from him. It's easy to say the incidence of hip dysplasia is low in your line if you DON'T test for it.

And what about the all the other health issues? Elbows, CERF, thyroid, cardio, vWD, CAH, etc. Hips are only the tip of the iceberg so to speak
Agreed. You're absolutely right. OFA website never works for me (same as VetGen, in facr), so the website and word of mouth is all I have to rely on for ANY breeder.

Last edited by DoberLu; 12-16-2007 at 01:37 AM.
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post #12 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 01:44 AM
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I would actually like to get into Schutzhund, but it seems pretty much impossible at the moment,
Why is it impossible for you? It's quite enjoyable, you would probably love it.

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post #13 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post

I didn't downplay the important of conformation, instead I asked why people who don't show/compete their dogs are condemned for breeding.

As for the info on titles, Rosamburg, good to know. I don't know what exactly it takes to get this or that, and he obviously doesn't explain...only drops the titles.

I do understand. I am not experienced in competeing dogs, but I do know it takes effort. And idiot can go through the motions, but they rarely achieve anything. I would actually like to get into Schutzhund, but it seems pretty much impossible at the moment, so I'm stuck on the sidelines and lacking in knowledge (which is why I am trying to gain as much information from experienced people here).


Well, by guarunteeing the health of a dog, a buyer would assume that the proper tests were performed on the parents, ya know?

Agreed. You're absolutely right. OFA website never works for me (same as VetGen, in facr), so the website and word of mouth is all I have to rely on for ANY breeder.
I am glad you have decided to stick around and ask questions, and contribute as well. In terms of why those that don't show or compete are condemned for breeding, I think it has been pretty well covered. If you have specific questions I am sure there can be more answers.

I will try to keep it short but usually can't but here it goes..From what I have come to understand, basically a breeder should have some sort of short and long goals. They should have a goal of somehow making an improvement on an already good dog. This is true whether it is for show or sport or a combination of both. For me it is more for the work/sport end. Please also understand that it is extremely difficult to produce a dog that can be highly successful in both venues. Occasionally a dog comes along that can do both, but generally there is a compromise somewhere. Despite what some people say about the "total" Dobermann it is very rare that one can be on the podium at the highest levels in the show and working ring, and be healthy. Something usually has to give somewhere. However as a long term goal the breeder may want to maintain or make slight improvements in conformation while developing a more powerful dog, with strong working drives. It is a real balancing act. The breeder will not have the kind of knowledge about dogs in general, or even more important about the specific dogs they intend to use, without them being field tested. Some breeders may tell you that they know just by training the dog, but usually this is BS they feed to justify breeding an untested dog.

You said that Schutzhund interests you but this "seems impossible". It really is not, you just have to have a few factors come together.
1. It REALLY helps to have the right dog. Just like people who are focussed on show dogs want CH with in the pedigree for a number of generations, serious Sch people would want dogs that have generations of being successful in that arena. I am also not talking here about "bought titles". I am talking about dogs that have had success competing at high levels or at least demonstrate this potential ability. Usually this will exclude most breedings from North American lines, though of course there are exceptions.
Breath easy folks, I am not trying to start a debate of Euro vs American. It is just reasonable to realize that dogs that have been bred for generations to do a certain job, whether it is to be successful in the conformation ring, or to
be on the podium at national schutzhund competitions are more likely to be up to the task than dogs that have been bred with a different purpose in mind.
2. You need the right training environment. This can be more difficult than finding the right dog. I am lucky. There are a few clubs right across the border, within a half an hour that provide great training. In addition they are Euro style clubs and not run by professionals. I could never afford to pay for professionals, so the aspect of being involved in a good club, makes me very grateful.
3. Willingness to throw away everything we thought we knew about dog training. This is a spiritual process in itself, because we really have to humble ourselves and be a newbie for a long time. My club is hard core, they care enough to demand excellence. Sometimes this means getting yelled at. These are passionate people who care about what they do.
4. The Willingness to devote the time necessary to train. It does take a lot of time. If you are married it helps if your partner is supportive. This can be a major problem for people. Even better is if both partners decide to be in the sport.

In terms of the health. You really have to read the agreement to see what they are REALLY offering. Buyer beware! What may sound real good may not be. A full bill of health is not cheap to attain, or easy to get on Doberman's.
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post #14 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 02:19 AM
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It is a mistake to assume because someone offers a health guarantee that means they health test. It can be very difficult sometimes to weed thru what info is true/not true on a website. When you are researching breeders, ask for proof of the health testing and ask specifically what tests were done on the sire/dam. If a breeder is not willing to answer questions, look elsewhere.

Many of these health guarantees require the owner to return the dog or to get a new (replacement) dog from the breeder. Many of these breeders count on the fact that most people WON'T want to return their pet at 2 yrs old.

I'm not sure what you mean about OFA never works for you? OFA is not meant to confirm ownership of a dog-- I was just pointing out that of the hundreds of hoytt dogs that exist only about 30 have had their hips certified thru OFA. Again, if you don't test for it, how will you know it's not there (unless you have outright severe lameness). In general, the incidence of hip dysplasia in dobes is much lower than some of the more popular breeds such as labs and goldens.
OFA is a voluntary database - that means that on the submission for there is a box for owner/agent to initial if they want the results included that are abnormal. The downside is that people rarely okay it. Too many people see it as a personal reflection on themselves and don't realize that the only way we will get a real picture and make a difference w/ health issues is to be honest AND to test as many of the littermates as possible, not just the breeding animals. Dobequest is another database, but again not all the data is updated/included, but it's another starting place. I give kudos to the DPCA members who have added all the pertinent health stats and causes of death on their dogs - it is this kind of info that will help us figure out how to rid our breed of some its health issues.

I would recommend going to the DPCA website (www.dpca.org) as there is a lot of info on there about health testing, research, info on showing your dog, general breed info, etc.

I'm glad you are asking questions - hopefully this clears it up a little
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post #15 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 05:27 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie W View Post
Why is it impossible for you? It's quite enjoyable, you would probably love it.
My age, lack of transportation, lack of the right dog as Rosamburg said, and I don't think there's a club/training center near.

Quote:
You said that Schutzhund interests you but this "seems impossible". It really is not, you just have to have a few factors come together.
1. It REALLY helps to have the right dog. Just like people who are focussed on show dogs want CH with in the pedigree for a number of generations, serious Sch people would want dogs that have generations of being successful in that arena. I am also not talking here about "bought titles". I am talking about dogs that have had success competing at high levels or at least demonstrate this potential ability. Usually this will exclude most breedings from North American lines, though of course there are exceptions.
Breath easy folks, I am not trying to start a debate of Euro vs American. It is just reasonable to realize that dogs that have been bred for generations to do a certain job, whether it is to be successful in the conformation ring, or to
be on the podium at national schutzhund competitions are more likely to be up to the task than dogs that have been bred with a different purpose in mind.
2. You need the right training environment. This can be more difficult than finding the right dog. I am lucky. There are a few clubs right across the border, within a half an hour that provide great training. In addition they are Euro style clubs and not run by professionals. I could never afford to pay for professionals, so the aspect of being involved in a good club, makes me very grateful.
3. Willingness to throw away everything we thought we knew about dog training. This is a spiritual process in itself, because we really have to humble ourselves and be a newbie for a long time. My club is hard core, they care enough to demand excellence. Sometimes this means getting yelled at. These are passionate people who care about what they do.
4. The Willingness to devote the time necessary to train. It does take a lot of time. If you are married it helps if your partner is supportive. This can be a major problem for people. Even better is if both partners decide to be in the sport.
Wow, I didn't know you could "buy" titles. That seems to completely defeat the purpose.
Before I got my current Doberman I was actually going to buy from Betelges in Serbia. So, I think I was on the right track, but looking back (all of this was about a year ago) I realize that it would be better to wait before embarking on such an adventure. Oh, I'm absolutely willing to go with whatever training any legitimate person wants to do, but then there's the key word: legitimate. Perhaps in time with the right guidance (and connections, for that matter. I've been disappointed many times before because I didn't realize the importantance of knowing people, lol.) I'll be able to do it. I've got a pretty good map for the future, so as long as I don't stray very far, I think it'll work out.

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Many of these health guarantees require the owner to return the dog or to get a new (replacement) dog from the breeder. Many of these breeders count on the fact that most people WON'T want to return their pet at 2 yrs old.
You make a good point. I always looked at it like, "Well, they're offering this guarantee, and I'm sure they won't want to take back and refund a bunch of unhealthy dogs, so they must be checking lines and testing before they breed!" But, I never thought about the owner/dog attachment factor. I know I certainly wouldn't send my dog back. Yes, the database info was very useful. Thanks a lot

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post #16 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 07:38 AM
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DoberLu......most of us have a health guarantee and it isn't worth the paper it is printed on..... I don't think one of us would send our dog back for any reason. How could we? Once you have your Doberman in hand, he/she gets into your heart in a milasecond, there is no way you could give them up ever.

I'm glad you are learning something. I don't think everyone "hates" that breeder, they just know you could find a better dog for your money. Why support someone who is not bettering the breed, when for the same money you can get a better bred dog from a breeder that is?

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post #17 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 09:11 AM
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There's a lot of devotion needed to train in schutzhund - I am trying to see if I can rearrange my schedule a bit for my pup, but it's hard because the club I would want to use is over an hour away easily without traffic -

1) with rising gas prices, can I afford to drive 160 miles even once a week, when I already drive for work (2/3 of a tank) and for Rah's training (one third of a tank)? That's half a tank of gas for me just for schutzhund - a tank of gas costs me 70 bucks!
2) can I spare the time (over 2.5 hours just travelling) ?
3) Can i AFFORD this, when I am just starting another dog in his competitive career ?

and finally - can I make it when the club trains - this si the biggest thing. I work every other saturday and at least one sunday a month. I cannot under any circumstances make any training during the week as I already have prior commitments with Rah, and with some of my weekends off, Rah is already entered in trials.

So it comes down to can I make it work - . There is a much closer club, but some people have cautioned me against them (one claiming they are much to expensive and focused only on the money, the other is a direct competitor of this person with their general obedience programs) but this club IS only 15 minutes away from me... two other people I trust have told me he is perfectly fine. I'm going to check with my breeder once more, and if she gives the ok, I will bring her in for a look - 15 minutes away is MUCH more feasible for me and something I can commit to.

Sidetracking, I'm sure... I might email you Rosamburg, while you are across the country maybe you can offer some input?


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post #18 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 11:25 AM
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Just a quick reply on some of the AKC obedience comments....it takes a while to achieve CDX and a really committed team (dog/handler) to achieve a UD title. A Utility title really is NOT something your average trained pet could achieve. You really need a dog with good drives to go beyond the CD title.

All the CDX and Utility work is off lead. Utility requires hand signal work, a stand for exam similar to a conformation exam but the handler stands at a distance from the dog, also directed jumping from a distance and scent discrimination with articles. A successful dog in Utility must be confident and able to solve problems....they are working across the ring from their handler the majority of the time.

If you look at statistics on the DPCA website, look how few Dobes achieve CDX and Utility titles each year. I wish I could encourage those of you with great working dogs to get out there and get some AKC obedience titles and become a good ambassador for today's Doberman!
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post #19 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 12:11 PM
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Just a quick reply on some of the AKC obedience comments....it takes a while to achieve CDX and a really committed team (dog/handler) to achieve a UD title. A Utility title really is NOT something your average trained pet could achieve. You really need a dog with good drives to go beyond the CD title.

All the CDX and Utility work is off lead. Utility requires hand signal work, a stand for exam similar to a conformation exam but the handler stands at a distance from the dog, also directed jumping from a distance and scent discrimination with articles. A successful dog in Utility must be confident and able to solve problems....they are working across the ring from their handler the majority of the time.

If you look at statistics on the DPCA website, look how few Dobes achieve CDX and Utility titles each year. I wish I could encourage those of you with great working dogs to get out there and get some AKC obedience titles and become a good ambassador for today's Doberman!
That is a more informed response to my relatively ignorant response about the AKC obedience stuff. My main point was that most all of those letters (CD) were the limit of the training and that there were very few CDX or UD levels listed.
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post #20 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-16-2007, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Just a quick reply on some of the AKC obedience comments....it takes a while to achieve CDX
The very first doberman I competed with in obedience back in the early 80's was purchased at a pet store. I put his CD on him his first weekend out at 6 months old, and the the first two legs of his CDX on him by the time he was 9 months old. He was then stolen and I never saw him again. Bad memories. Anyway, while I agree a dog has to have a relatively stable temperamemt to compete in obedience, a good trainer can get amazing results from a broad range of dogs. Obedience titles are IMO more of a reflection of the skill and dedication of the handler.

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If you look at statistics on the DPCA website, look how few Dobes achieve CDX and Utility titles each year.
I think part of that is simply that not very many people are into obedience enough to dedicate so much time to it. Of course there are plenty that are willing and able to dedicate the time it takes to get a CD, but the time/training demands go up dramatically from there, therefore the number involved drops.

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post #21 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-17-2007, 09:47 PM
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I owned a Hoytt dobe.....

until October 1st of this year. We had to euthanize him a month shy of his fourth birthday because he had DCM and had gone into CHF (congestive heart failure) and sustained VCPs for a period of 48 hours. He was a wonderful dog from a personality and disposition stand point. Barrie Hoytt also delivered the training we paid for and Roland was a well-behaved dog and had the sweetest disposition of any dog I have ever seen. BUT, he was oversized at about 107 pounds - we had requested breed standard. And of course, the obvious: he died WAY too young because of DCM. Barrie Hoytt still has not returned one phone call to me since this happened. In examining Roland's pedigree, there is not one non-Hoytt dobe in it. I don't know whether his guarantee is good or not and frankly, it isn't worth the pain to pursue it. I don't want another Hoytt doberman. My heart cannot take the devastation.

We are getting a puppy this Saturday from another breeder. We did a lot of research this time and got a lot of help from this board and a few other places. While we know there are always risks with this breed, we hope the outcome will be much better this time.
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post #22 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-17-2007, 10:15 PM
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I'm so very sorry for your heartache and loss. That is just way too young to have to say goodbye.

I hope your new puppy brings you many smiles and many many years of happiness and companionship. After of course the monster puppy stage is over. LOL

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post #23 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 09:27 PM
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Our first dobie was a HOH dog and there is NO way that I would recommend him to anyone. Our Magnus was a great dog who loved everyone that he came into contact and we looked forward to many years of wonderful memories with him. However 1 month prior to his 4th birthday he got up walked a few feet and collasped and died in my husbands arms. He too also died of sudden dcm. I would not trade the time with Magnus for anything but I would not want anyone to go thru the heartache that we suffered that early Sunday morning.

By no means am I saying that you get guarantees with other dogs that you will get. They are living creatures just as we are and none of us are promised tomorrow. But I would have to say that with Hoytt's track record why would you want to risk it. His dogs are just as expensive as a dog that would get from a breeder that offers health testing and champion bloodlines.

We got sucked in from his elaborate web site and thought wow this must be a great breeder. But I have to tell you that there is no way that I would buy another dobie from him and there are just too many reputable breeders to choose from.

Good luck in your search.

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post #24 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-19-2007, 02:50 PM
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I agree with those that are saying stay FAR away from HOH. Their reputation is pretty bad and for a reason in the Dobe community.

And there are so many puppies, it is doubtful they all get the same standard of care when born, the early stimulation, the attention to cleanliness, lots of socialization and puppy challenges, grooming, high quality food, it is doubtful every litter gets the best start possible before going to their new home.

Profit is their main objective. Not breeding a better Dobe, not bettering the breed, not health, not working ability, not anything.

Another thing, if someone wants a HOH dog, they should rescue. HOH produces so many dogs they come through Dobe rescue from time to time.

The sad thing is, so many people don't know better, and not only do the dogs and puppies suffer while HOH gets richer, but also many families suffer too. It is a lose lose for the dogs involved and for the people that love those dogs and experience HOH's temperament, health, etc. problems. And it is a lose lose for the next generation of HOH dogs being produced so carelessly.

That is why many are so passionate about never giving money to BYB's and puppy mills, but rather suggest to rescue or pick a good breeder for their Dobe.
Thank you to those who shared your personal stories, that was very brave of you.


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post #25 of 201 (permalink) Old 12-19-2007, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
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Profit is their main objective.
And this is exactly what Barrie Hoytt said on doberworld several years ago, that he breeds for profit. It's no secret.

Some of us were on dw back then when a lady named Kimberly had a Doberman from House Of Hoytt. Keeper took half her scalp off in an attack. As I recall, the aggressive behaviour had been escalating until he full-out attacked her. She used to have a website called Keeper's Korner (or Corner, I don't recall which, don't know if it's still up somewhere). Barrie Hoytt was no help to her, and was completely unsympathetic.

I also recall some postings from Barrie Hoytt on dw regarding a rescue Doberman that one of the groups had - I think it was the one that Colleen was with, probably DARE. That one had primary ciliary dyskinesia (sp?), and Barrie Hoytt publicly admitted that is a problem in their Dobes, and I seem to recall that he said it was due to the closeness of the gene pool. In that disease, the cilia in the sinuses doesn't process mucous properly and the dogs cough/sneeze, snort up mucous, etc.

I think that what most disturbs me about the breeding practices is the custom ordering of Dobes in whatever size you wish. What happened to the standard? Who cares when there's money to be made!

There are all kinds of things wrong with the guarantee if you really take it apart. Void if you don't send a yearly video tape, for eg (tell me, how many are really going to do that? Lets HOH off the hook!) The last time I looked there were a ton of loopholes that let the breeder off the hook if you weren't minding your p's and q's, and that's not what a contract should be about. It should be about protecting the dog, the buyer and the breeder, not all geared with loopholes to let the breeder not be responsible.

Last edited by MaryAndDobes; 12-19-2007 at 04:00 PM.
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