What's wrong with Hoytt? - Page 3 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #51 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-15-2009, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by von Cosack Dobermann View Post
I don't think the message will ever sink in to novice perspective buyers. The negative reviews of this breeder has been well established for almost 40 years. I ran my own rescue in my home state (CT.), in the 60's and 70's. The amount of times their name was involved was ridiculous not just health issues with the dogs the people he sold to where overwhelmed with the time and work involved raising a dobermann pup. This is always both party's fault, but responsible breeders know who to pass on and who to educate. We did not have forums years ago to investigate reputations so maybe this situation will improve. To me the main problem is health issues for all breeders, but when you are mass producing with these issues persisting this has been very sad for a very long time. perspective buyers please READ UP.
Oh yes, it does sink in to some. I was very close to getting a puppy from this breeder- I had been to the "kennel", spoken with him on the phone several times, etc. And I am as novice as you get. I had no idea what the "red flags" were- I just knew to stay away from pet stores. I don't own a Doberman, but you can bet your bottom dollar that when I do decide to own one, I wouldn't buy one from this breeder if every good breeder and rescue turned me down- I would go without. It is about a 30 minute drive for me to go to this breeder, yet I would rather have a puppy shipped or take a road trip to get a puppy from a good breeder. That is why these threads are so good. I found DT by googling this breeder's name, because I couldn't remember their web address.

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post #52 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-15-2009, 12:11 PM
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I second that Jen!

If you look at my very first posts I was going to buy a dog from a less than reputable breeder in TX. Giles... very nice people- i went down there to see the dogs etc... and DT steered me towards my Wyatt!
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post #53 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-15-2009, 12:24 PM
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I second that Jen!

If you look at my very first posts I was going to buy a dog from a less than reputable breeder in TX. Giles... very nice people- i went down there to see the dogs etc... and DT steered me towards my Wyatt!
And boy what a good steer that wasy He is so impressive, IMO!

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post #54 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 12:59 PM
 
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DoberLu

I purchased a puppy from Hoytt. My dog has been sick almost constantly (she is now two years old) in fact she was hospitalized this morning. Mr. Hoytt is a very nice person but when called to discuss a specific problem as mentioned in his web site that he was always available to discuss the health, etc. of the puppies he sells, assuming one can get the opportunity to speak with him which I've personally found very hard, he tends to sway away from the Problem in question only to discuss all his "other" dogs.
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post #55 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 01:16 PM
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sorry you are having problems with you furkid thats just terrible to hear...

its really hard to "be there" for your puppies when you're pumping out such high numbers. I never have a problem getting a hold of my breeder... she knows exactly which dog i'm talking about without having to reference a receipt number
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post #56 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
I've been reading through a lot of threads and have found that the majority of DT members don't like Hoytt at all. The only reason I've really found is that he's a "mass producer".
So, I took a gander at his site and although he doesn't have a page that lists all of the dogs he owns, there are many dogs produced by him showcased on his site which does lead me to believe he's had many a litter in his time.
Anyway, other than that, I didn't see anything really bad, instead a lot of good stuff:
  • He health tests. Claims that hip dysplasia is "literally non-existent in Hoytt Dobes" when it comes down to the breeding (environment after placement excluded, understandable)
  • Has good vet references
  • Trains and titles his dogs, even sells trained dogs. Titles can be seen here. So, he's got a lot of dogs, but they're not just sitting around doing nothing.
  • Does not endorse the white Dobe ("Have I changed my opinion about 'whites' since first taking a stand against them? No! For one should be breeding for improvement not novelty." I think everyone here would back his statement, right?)
  • Has a seven year health guarantee as long as you provide vet documents to show you've taken care of the dog
  • Will take back any of his dogs if they can't stay with their owner for whatever reason
  • Has an extensive amount of informative material on the Doberman.
With all of that info, he seems like a pretty decent guy.
He does have an "application" and takes credit cards, though, which I know no one here is fond of. Very business-like, I agree, but would be handy if you were the one getting numerous emails with minimal information from seemingly shady characters. Anyway, the application is very involved and detailed (down to the square footage of your yard) and will provide him with plenty of information about the buyer and what he/she plans to do with the Dobe.

So, what's up?

Has anyone here met any of his dogs? Green horns growing out of their heads or something? :biggrin55
There is nothing wrong with the House of Hoytt. My red female came from there and no green horns. She is beautiful, with a great temperment. Barrie has always been available to answer any questions I have had about her and he knows everything about every dog in her line. He does not always have a litter available; they are all planned. Nor does he have a kennel full of brood bitches; as I understand it most puppies are from clients dogs that come back for breeding, delivery and weaning, then go home. The credit card acceptence is convient as I made the deposit by check, paid the balance with my super ck. cd. before picking her up at the kennel and was able to avoid the state sales tax. Also Barrie turns down more people than he sells to.
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post #57 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 04:57 PM
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The first dobe I had, 25 years ago, came from hoytt. It was by far the best one i've owned!
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post #58 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 05:07 PM
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Hoytt

They have been producing puppies since the 60's in the 70's i saw some nice dogs they produced several i saw was pointed but never finished.

James Bowman
Akc/Int/U-Ch.Briarwood Breakout
www.Jidiadobermans.com
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post #59 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 05:11 PM
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Never seen one of his or run into one would like to see one. What lines does he have?
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post #60 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanK9 View Post
Never seen one of his or run into one would like to see one. What lines does he have?

He has his own line. I have never seen a Hoytt dog win points. Obedience stuff maybe but never a point in conformation.
His line are his for generations. Pets.

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post #61 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 05:40 PM
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Ummm .... there are THREE Dobermans with ANY health testing listed on the OFA site that are bred by Hoytt ...

WHAT HEALTH TESTING IS HE REFERRING TO EXACTLY?

Chelsea James

Raindance Dobes:
CH Marquis' I Am Arya
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At the bridge:
CH Kalora's Ooh La La V Cheriden
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CH Raindance Mercier
CH Tebo Raindance Blame The Tequila


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post #62 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 05:40 PM
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Oh that help thanks jdd that explains why I never heard of them Ive only seen his ad in DogFancy thats all I knew of him.
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post #63 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 06:44 PM
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HoH

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRAYGHOST View Post
There is nothing wrong with the House of Hoytt. My red female came from there and no green horns. She is beautiful, with a great temperment. Barrie has always been available to answer any questions I have had about her...
I am glad your dog is healthy. I sincerely hope she lives a long and happy life. Any BYB of Dobes can get lucky and produce the occasional Dobe without health or behavioral problems. I'm glad for the Dobe and glad for the purchaser.

Search the threads/posts about HoH. People with HoH dogs posting to this forum usually relate one of two situations:
1) They bought a Dobe from HoH which is/was active, friendly, healthy and Mr. Hoytt is/was always available to answer questions.
2) They bought a Dobe from HoH which developed serious health or behavioral issues and/or died before the age of ten, and Mr. Hoytt refuses/refused to make himself available to answer questions or honor his contract's replacement clause.

In the first situation, hooray and yippee! (no sarcasm intended) In the second situation, posters to DT contend that if HoH would only:
1) screen/test all their dogs for well-known diseases (e.g., vWD, HD, OCD);
2) breed only those dogs that resemble--as nearly as possible--the published standard (your choice: FCI/AKC/UKC/UDC/CanKC, et al.);
3) have all their dogs evaluated, through the process of open competition, for the presence and quality of those physical and psychological elements which make a dog a Doberman (e.g., structure, courage, intelligence, protective instincts, etc.);
4) eliminate from their breeding program all dogs which do not measure up to the standards and which are affected by the well-known diseases;**
5) maintain minimum standards of care for all dogs (e.g., food, water, shelter, exercise, veterinary attention, socialization);
6) take back any and all dogs of their breeding which owners no longer want;
7) consistently honor the clauses in their own contracts; then...

nobody here would utter a critical word about HoH--ever. It's that simple. Until HoH takes those 7 steps, most DT members will continue to challenge and criticize them and others like them about their breeding practices.

Enjoy your Doberpup!


**I know there is controversy about this. Readers are encouraged to search the other threads which address this issue.
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post #64 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-23-2009, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenyaARaineCD View Post
I am glad your dog is healthy. I sincerely hope she lives a long and happy life. Any BYB of Dobes can get lucky and produce the occasional Dobe without health or behavioral problems. I'm glad for the Dobe and glad for the purchaser.

Search the threads/posts about HoH. People with HoH dogs posting to this forum usually relate one of two situations:
1) They bought a Dobe from HoH which is/was active, friendly, healthy and Mr. Hoytt is/was always available to answer questions.
2) They bought a Dobe from HoH which developed serious health or behavioral issues and/or died before the age of ten, and Mr. Hoytt refuses/refused to make himself available to answer questions or honor his contract's replacement clause.

In the first situation, hooray and yippee! (no sarcasm intended) In the second situation, posters to DT contend that if HoH would only:
1) screen/test all their dogs for well-known diseases (e.g., vWD, HD, OCD);
2) breed only those dogs that resemble--as nearly as possible--the published standard (your choice: FCI/AKC/UKC/UDC/CanKC, et al.);
3) have all their dogs evaluated, through the process of open competition, for the presence and quality of those physical and psychological elements which make a dog a Doberman (e.g., structure, courage, intelligence, protective instincts, etc.);
4) eliminate from their breeding program all dogs which do not measure up to the standards and which are affected by the well-known diseases;**
5) maintain minimum standards of care for all dogs (e.g., food, water, shelter, exercise, veterinary attention, socialization);
6) take back any and all dogs of their breeding which owners no longer want;
7) consistently honor the clauses in their own contracts; then...

nobody here would utter a critical word about HoH--ever. It's that simple. Until HoH takes those 7 steps, most DT members will continue to challenge and criticize them and others like them about their breeding practices.

Enjoy your Doberpup!


**I know there is controversy about this. Readers are encouraged to search the other threads which address this issue.
KenyaARaineCD-

I hope I really do not get flamed to bad for posting this. I just want to say that, again, I am a novice at everything as it pertains to doberman ownership and are still learning a lot from the wonderful experienced folks on DT.

Just wanted to say good post...I agree with a lot of things you said. I just wanted to add a different perspective or point of view on a few things from an outsider looking in:

Your first two categories: "People with HoH dogs posting to this forum usually relate one of two situations:"

Spot On / Very well worded

Your second set of statements: "Posters to DT contend that if HoH would only:"

Just wanted to add in some variables if you will.

1) screen/test all their dogs for well-known diseases (e.g., vWD, HD, OCD);

Just wanted to point out that there was a thread in this same section just the other day "Mariemburg Dobermans" and there were folks on there that think she produces top of the line dobes but lacks a little in health testing area. From what I gather from the postings, this is mostly due to her knowing her own lines so well that she feels she does not need to do a complete health testing as many people elude to on DT. So what really makes the difference here between the first example and the next?

2) breed only those dogs that resemble--as nearly as possible--the published standard (your choice: FCI/AKC/UKC/UDC/CanKC, et al.);

See the answer for question #1, if they are your own lines that you have created and have been around since the 60's, maybe you feel you don't need to title them or have everyone agree that they resemble certain characteristics as long as they meet what you are looking for....kind of like the breeder example in question #1?

3) have all their dogs evaluated, through the process of open competition, for the presence and quality of those physical and psychological elements which make a dog a Doberman (e.g., structure, courage, intelligence, protective instincts, etc.);

In my opinion, kind of relates to the answer in questions #1 and #2 with the point of it being your own lines and knowing them so good. Plus I did see some dogs that are titled and do have WAE testing completed? So wouldn't this be a good example of having their dogs evaluated?

4) eliminate from their breeding program all dogs which do not measure up to the standards and which are affected by the well-known diseases;**

This is a good point, especially if people are telling you they are having problems with cardio, hips, coat issues, etc...why would you continue to use that line?

5) maintain minimum standards of care for all dogs (e.g., food, water, shelter, exercise, veterinary attention, socialization);

From what I can gather, this is a mass producer but not to the extend of keeping their dogs in chain linked kennels or anything. If you look at the website, the accommodations for the pups actually look fairly nice. They are housed in the Super Pup area. Which are enclosed with tv's, beds, fans, and have an outside run they can go to? Not in the home with the breeder as they should be but certainly by far not the worst case scenerio as we have seen so many times posted on DT.

6) take back any and all dogs of their breeding which owners no longer want;

Another good point, an excellent breeder should take back all unwanted dogs...no matter what. Not sure if this happens or not. I have heard examples both ways. People finally get in contact with him (which is another issue all by itself) and finally have the pup replaced and some people are totally written off. So definitely a good point to bring up

7) consistently honor the clauses in their own contracts; then...

Also, another good point...I too have heard the stories about people contacting with issues and HOH not abiding by contract agreement or getting the run around.

All in all, again I just wanted to respond with a different perspective on the way things can be viewed. I think its real important to gather all the facts before basing a decision one way or another. Also, it may not be fair for one person to get a pass for practicing a certain breeding program their own way yet the next person gets dumped on (I'll admit there are other reasons to dump on this person

Thanks,
Michael

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post #65 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-23-2009, 11:20 AM
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Yes, but...no, but...

M1chael, thanks for your reply and observations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1chael View Post
Just wanted to point out that there was a thread in this same section just the other day "Mariemburg Dobermans"...
I asterisked one of my list items noting that the health testing issue can be complicated, contentious and controversial. I didn't think this was the place to re-hash. I encourage those who haven't read the threads on health testing to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1chael View Post
...if they are your own lines that you have created...kind of like the breeder example...?
I realize that Louis Dobermann and the early pioneers of the breed must have been in this position at some point in the process of developing the breed. But note that while Ms. Rogers may have her idiosyncratic way of doing things, her dogs have been and are evaluated in open competition. Marienburg dogs historically have been highly visible at AKC Conformation shows--unlike HoH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1chael View Post
I did see some dogs that are titled and do have WAE testing completed...
"Some", not "all" or "most"--some. Note that early on in the development of the breed, Mr. Dobermann et al. sought others' opinions of their efforts and entered the results of their breeding experiments in shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1chael View Post
...[The pups] are housed in the Super Pup area...Not in the home...
Mr. Dobermann's vision was to develop a medium-sized, clean, intelligent, devoted personal protection dog that lived in close contact with its human family. Achieving that goal is best served by raising pups underfoot in the home (IMO). I'm glad that not every puppy produced in a kennel environment turns out savage and untrainable and for the most part they are resilient enough to overcome this deficit in their socialization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1chael View Post
...I just wanted to respond with a different perspective on the way things can be viewed. I think its real important to gather all the facts before basing a decision one way or another. Also, it may not be fair for one person to get a pass for practicing a certain breeding program their own way yet the next person gets dumped on...
Appreciate it; agreed; agreed--in principle!

Last edited by KenyaARaineCD; 04-23-2009 at 11:23 AM.
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post #66 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-23-2009, 11:22 AM
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I have met Mr. Hoytt and several of his dogs. It was about 8 years ago, and I knew nothing of the Doberman standard, I was totally impressed by the lingo he threw out. I did have this feeling like I had talked with a used car salesman. What I saw was clean. However, I didn't see the kennel area, he introduced several dogs to me in a lobby. He left myself and my 2 friends who came with me with several dogs and puppies while he attended to some business for several minutes. The minute he walked out of the room, the puppies became puppies- trying to chew things. When he walked back in, the cowed down immediately. [I]At the time[I] I interpreted it as him being a good leader and that the dogs were well trained. However, with what I know now, it was more likely a fear response, and it is unsettling to me. He was most interested in talking about money, and how I really needed the Grand Victor super special pick-of-the-litter super trained puppy. I was impressed by the dogs, but I had never seen a well-bred Doberman before. Now I can look at the pictures of his dogs and think that I want more than that- especially for the money.

Before I found DT, I called him back a little over a year ago. The conversation was unsettling- hence why I googled the kennel name and found DT. I remember specifically talking about being concerned about temperment, myself having 2 kids and 2 cats. He immediately sounded defensive and said something along the lines of "well it depends on how you plan on raising the dog- some people believe it's okay for a dog to sleep with them and so on, and if that's the case the Doberman is not for you". I'm sure I didn't quote him exactly, it was a long time ago. But I did google him, and when I read about Keeper on here, I thought about what he said about the sleeping thing and it really did send chills down my spine.

Bottom line was everything he was talking about seemed to come around to making money. I'd much rather pay $1500 for a well bred puppy from a reputable breeder than the prices he has for what he breeds, and have to pay extra to have the ears cropped.

Here's how my vet put it, when I was talking to her. She said to be really careful with who you purchase a Doberman from, because they are a breed riddled with health problems. She said she wouldn't encourage someone to buy any breed from a BYB'er, but that there is a huge difference in someone buying a relatively healthy breed from a BYB'er and a breed like this one. Ethics, morality, sympathy for the poor producing bitches aside, it's really a gamble, IMO, to purchase a puppy who has no REAL, documented health testing.

And the PRICES!! Did I mention them??? I'ts like paying the price of a Lexus to get a Honda with no warranty.

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post #67 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-23-2009, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by m1chael View Post
Just wanted to point out that there was a thread in this same section just the other day "Mariemburg Dobermans" and there were folks on there that think she produces top of the line dobes but lacks a little in health testing area. From what I gather from the postings, this is mostly due to her knowing her own lines so well that she feels she does not need to do a complete health testing as many people elude to on DT. So what really makes the difference here between the first example and the next?
Beyond showing, nothing in my opinion. As I said recently in another thread, you can't have it both ways. You can't criticize one breeder for not doing something ethical (health testing) while offering another praise when they exhibit the same behaviour.

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post #68 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-23-2009, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenyaARaineCD View Post
M1chael, thanks for your reply and observations.


I asterisked one of my list items noting that the health testing issue can be complicated, contentious and controversial. I didn't think this was the place to re-hash. I encourage those who haven't read the threads on health testing to do so.

Good Point, I agree not the place to re-hash that issue.


I realize that Louis Dobermann and the early pioneers of the breed must have been in this position at some point in the process of developing the breed. But note that while Ms. Rogers may have her idiosyncratic way of doing things, her dogs have been and are evaluated in open competition. Marienburg dogs historically have been highly visible at AKC Conformation shows--unlike HoH.

Another good point, never thought about it like that

"Some", not "all" or "most"--some. Note that early on in the development of the breed, Mr. Dobermann et al. sought others' opinions of their efforts and entered the results of their breeding experiments in shows.

Another good point, although it seems like you may be able to say "most" as far as titling. It is hard to follow due to so many litters but most of the Dam & Sires due have a CD, WAE, etc title/cert...not CH because he does not show but OB titles. But I agree with what you said, they all should be no if's, and's, or but's.

Mr. Dobermann's vision was to develop a medium-sized, clean, intelligent, devoted personal protection dog that lived in close contact with its human family. Achieving that goal is best served by raising pups underfoot in the home (IMO). I'm glad that not every puppy produced in a kennel environment turns out savage and untrainable and for the most part they are resilient enough to overcome this deficit in their socialization.

This statement I do agree with; however, I have heard that with all the training that is done (depending on what level that is), his dobes have interaction multiple times throughout the day with trainers, etc....it would take that much to get to the level that the buyer is requesting...at least I would think (especially when your dealing with the short attention span of puppies). Also, if you consider from the standpoint of other breeders may have their dobes in-home with them but I am sure there are times when the pups or whatever are going to be kenneled throughout the day. But not to split hairs, I do agree for the most part as I stated above

Appreciate it; agreed; agreed--in principle!
Thanks for your response. I really appreciate multiple point of views

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Beyond showing, nothing in my opinion. As I said recently in another thread, you can't have it both ways. You can't criticize one breeder for not doing something ethical (health testing) while offering another praise when they exhibit the same behaviour.
M&D-

Thanks for not crucifying me

Seriously, I appreciate your response and all the knowledge that comes along with that.


Michael

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post #69 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-23-2009, 07:52 PM
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Very nice exchange of ideas and views on this page. It was a pleasure to read. Thank you.

One of the most dangerous things that can happen to a child is to kill or torture an animal and get away with it.--Margaret Mead

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post #70 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-25-2009, 07:18 PM
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This may have been said before, but House of Hoytt, and I think (not sure) Kimbertal does this also, will advertise for champion male dogs to buy. Believe it or not, some people will sell their champion males to these people. This is where their 'championship bloodlines' come from. They buy the champions and breed them to their homebred females, but they don't actually show any dogs to a championship themselves.
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post #71 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-25-2009, 08:09 PM
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KenyaRaineCD, very nice post and well said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Beyond showing, nothing in my opinion. As I said recently in another thread, you can't have it both ways. You can't criticize one breeder for not doing something ethical (health testing) while offering another praise when they exhibit the same behaviour.
Amen and a huge ditto.

I get very disappointed when someone of a certain status or repute is given a pass on something--every single person out there should be held to the same standards.

The really ethical persons will hold *themselves* to these standards--no need for others to push for that.

M1chael, my comments in bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1chael View Post
KenyaARaineCD-

I hope I really do not get flamed to bad for posting this. I just want to say that, again, I am a novice at everything as it pertains to doberman ownership and are still learning a lot from the wonderful experienced folks on DT.

I think it is super helpful when novices post their thought processes, in an intelligent, articulate, non-defensive manner, as you have, here.

This helps others who've been in dogs forever, to see, or to remember, how things seemed, starting out.

So, thank you for bringing this up.




...Just wanted to add in some variables if you will.

1) screen/test all their dogs for well-known diseases (e.g., vWD, HD, OCD);

Just wanted to point out that there was a thread in this same section just the other day "Mariemburg Dobermans" and there were folks on there that think she produces top of the line dobes but lacks a little in health testing area. From what I gather from the postings, this is mostly due to her knowing her own lines so well that she feels she does not need to do a complete health testing as many people elude to on DT. So what really makes the difference here between the first example and the next?

MaryAndDobes said it well, just reiterating--both examples should be held to the same ethics, regardless.

2) breed only those dogs that resemble--as nearly as possible--the published standard (your choice: FCI/AKC/UKC/UDC/CanKC, et al.);

See the answer for question #1, if they are your own lines that you have created and have been around since the 60's, maybe you feel you don't need to title them or have everyone agree that they resemble certain characteristics as long as they meet what you are looking for....kind of like the breeder example in question #1?


I've seen a lot of this type of thinking, over the years. There are problems with this line of reasoning and this approach, though.

Basically, even if you are a "good breeder," it's a slippery slope.

Each generation, each breeding, each new animal being evaluated needs more than one pair of eyes on it.

Case in point. I used to work for a very well-known breeder who had, over the years, several BISS winning dogs and bitches (not Dobermans, a sporting breed). A breeding program in another country is actually founded on her lines. She is very reputable and considered very expert.

She was very authoritative on her breed of choice, had forgotten more than most folks ever knew, and generally did a really good job of picking nice matches for her bitches and of approving outside bitches for her stud dogs.

So, one year, she and another nationally known breeder, a friend of hers, plan this really, really exciting breeding. Every single thing on paper looks fabulous.

The bitch takes, the litter arrives, there's a wait list a mile long.

She does her litter evals, over the coming weeks, and is just blown away by one of the bitch puppies and actually names her "I'm a Keeper."

Co-breeder agrees with her pick and everyone is happy and "Keeper" is destined for a stunning show career and eventually pups of her own, right?

Ever had the experience of catching sight of yourself in a mirror or reflection or having your pic taken unexpectedly and "seeing" yourself with new eyes?

That was Keeper's first big show.

Breeder came home in disgust. Disgust at herself. You see, *she* was never, ever, ever gonna be a victim of "kennel blindness."

And yet, she was. Poor Keeper was a pet quality bitch. She got spayed and placed and lived a very nice life--but she was not breeding quality, despite all the hoopla and excitement--and her breeder, being a generally good egg, suddenly "saw" all that, when she looked at her Keeper among other puppy bitches, that one day.

What if she'd persisted in her own "vision" of that bitch, and then bred her, without ever going and comparing "Keeper" to other animals of her age? Without ever asking people in the breed, but outside her own circle, to look Keeper over and give opinions?

It's called kennel blindness, and I wonder if any human is immune to it. Probably not.


(And don't forget, it's the BYBs and mills who claim they have expertise and their dogs are "quality," and no one else needs to evaluate that--we should take *their* word alone. Separate issue, though, from the slippery slope--these folks just never had the ability to effectively and objectively evaluate breeding stock.)

3) have all their dogs evaluated, through the process of open competition, for the presence and quality of those physical and psychological elements which make a dog a Doberman (e.g., structure, courage, intelligence, protective instincts, etc.);

In my opinion, kind of relates to the answer in questions #1 and #2 with the point of it being your own lines and knowing them so good. Plus I did see some dogs that are titled and do have WAE testing completed? So wouldn't this be a good example of having their dogs evaluated?

See above. Imo, I like to see titles at both ends of the dog. But, there is room for interpretation, and different buyers have different priorities. But, Hoytt does not demonstrate a reasonable record of seeking outside evaluation of their breeding stock, no matter what you are looking for in a Doberman.



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post #72 of 207 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by edh View Post
I made a mistake of going with a Hoytt dog once. He claimed his blues had no coat problems, well she started to go go bald from the back. His training program lacks something, and she was a little shy. Live and Learn. She died of cardio at 8. Was the best ball catcher I've ever seen.
My Hoytt dobe died at 6 of cardio. best frisbee catcher I ever had. My guy was out of his female named Mia. any relation?
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post #73 of 207 (permalink) Old 06-20-2010, 05:32 PM
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until October 1st of this year. We had to euthanize him a month shy of his fourth birthday because he had DCM and had gone into CHF (congestive heart failure) and sustained VCPs for a period of 48 hours. He was a wonderful dog from a personality and disposition stand point. Barrie Hoytt also delivered the training we paid for and Roland was a well-behaved dog and had the sweetest disposition of any dog I have ever seen. BUT, he was oversized at about 107 pounds - we had requested breed standard. And of course, the obvious: he died WAY too young because of DCM. Barrie Hoytt still has not returned one phone call to me since this happened. In examining Roland's pedigree, there is not one non-Hoytt dobe in it. I don't know whether his guarantee is good or not and frankly, it isn't worth the pain to pursue it. I don't want another Hoytt doberman. My heart cannot take the devastation.

We are getting a puppy this Saturday from another breeder. We did a lot of research this time and got a lot of help from this board and a few other places. While we know there are always risks with this breed, we hope the outcome will be much better this time.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope your new puppy, I guess it's not a puppy now, is everything you've hoped for.
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post #74 of 207 (permalink) Old 08-27-2010, 08:16 PM
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Thanks so much. My first visit and post here in some time. The people here are beyond wonderful, and I don't know how I could have made it through the pain without many of them, some who talked to me privately via e-mail and on the phone. The stories of others who lost dogs to DCM became too painful, b/c it brought back too many bad memories, as opposed the good memories with your dog you want to think on.

It occurred to me that ChuChu is now only about a year away from Roland's age when he died. Can't help but think about it. Fingers crossed and praying. Prolly gonna do a holter around the first of the year.

Mikadobe's Mystery Train, "ChuChu," RIP 10/11/07-1/24/15 red boy; Arabelle, natural-eared rescue black girl. RIP beloved Roland, 11/11/03 -10/1/07, DCM victim.

Last edited by DoberVol; 08-27-2010 at 08:28 PM. Reason: typo
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post #75 of 207 (permalink) Old 08-27-2010, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Cosack Dobermann View Post
I don't think the message will ever sink in to novice perspective buyers. The negative reviews of this breeder has been well established for almost 40 years. I ran my own rescue in my home state (CT.), in the 60's and 70's. The amount of times their name was involved was ridiculous not just health issues with the dogs the people he sold to where overwhelmed with the time and work involved raising a dobermann pup. This is always both party's fault, but responsible breeders know who to pass on and who to educate. We did not have forums years ago to investigate reputations so maybe this situation will improve. To me the main problem is health issues for all breeders, but when you are mass producing with these issues persisting this has been very sad for a very long time. perspective buyers please READ UP.

See, and I think this is unfair to lump various buyers in together.

You're going to get two general types of people buying-- much like you get two types of people who have bought from the HoH--and they're going to go like this:

A: People who want to do the best by their dogs, realize that they may not know the whole story, but can still occasionally get flummoxed or bamboozled. Some of these people will still buy from places like HoH, KT, Family Dobes, and so forth -- and likely regret it later. But if caught quickly enough, they can be educated and WILL make better choices.

B: People who want something RIGHT NOW and don't care what they have to do to get it. These people are instant gratification junkies, slaves to the ID. They don't actually want to be educated, they just want to be validated and will do whatever they were going to do in the first place, even if you sat them down with a Power Point that explained that dogs from these places ATE BABIES or something, they'd STILL get THAT DOG becaues that dog is AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW INSTANT GRATIFICATION NOW NOW NOW. You can't fix that person or educate that person, because they are stupid. Nothing fixes stupid but experience, and even then, they're going to find a way to blame it one ANYTHING other then their own foolishness -- the dog, the board, the sky, the weather.


So I don't think that the message should go silent. But folks need to carefully evaluate who they're dealing with when they hear someone come in and bomb drop a miller's name, and react accordingly. Educate at first, and if they're not really interested in it, wash your hands of it and don't waste time -- go forward and maybe the next person will think beyond their immediate wants and will be willing to be educated and pointed to good, reputable breeders... even if they might wait a few months to a year to get the RIGHT dog.
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