What's wrong with Hoytt? - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #26 of 207 (permalink) Old 12-19-2007, 02:51 PM
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I have been keeping up with this thread and there is a lot of great information about HOH. I haven't done much research on them, but I glanced at their website, and along with the fact that he seems to mass produce his dogs, his facility seems so far from what an ethical breeder should be doing. I'm sure his kennels are in great condition, but I would bet that none of those dogs get to sleep in a house at night. I don't want to rattle anyone's cage here, but HOH seems like a glamorized pet shop/puppy mill to me. It's a bit sad to me to think that their dogs have to live in a kennel all their lives, or until someone buys them. That's not how a dog should live. A dog should be part of a family. With the high volume of dogs that he produces, I couldn't imagine him giving each dog the necessary amount of one-on-one time they should be receiving.
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post #27 of 207 (permalink) Old 12-19-2007, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hessian View Post
I have been keeping up with this thread and there is a lot of great information about HOH. I haven't done much research on them, but I glanced at their website, and along with the fact that he seems to mass produce his dogs, his facility seems so far from what an ethical breeder should be doing. I'm sure his kennels are in great condition, but I would bet that none of those dogs get to sleep in a house at night. I don't want to rattle anyone's cage here, but HOH seems like a glamorized pet shop/puppy mill to me. It's a bit sad to me to think that their dogs have to live in a kennel all their lives, or until someone buys them. That's not how a dog should live. A dog should be part of a family. With the high volume of dogs that he produces, I couldn't imagine him giving each dog the necessary amount of one-on-one time they should be receiving.
This is what makes me very sad for kennel bred dogs. I can't imagine Petey sleeping in a kennel like his parents do. They are both such beautiful dogs, smart and very sweet, they should be on a doggie bed at the foot of someones human bed.


oxc

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post #28 of 207 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 03:00 PM
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I'm very sorry to hear about the beloved dogs from there that passed at such an early age. What a shame to think that they're still producing them if they are having problems like that.

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post #29 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2008, 09:48 PM
 
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I'll chime in on this as I just had a surgical ear correction on my dog's right ear. My ear vet, Dr. Reece in Chicago, IL, made a remark in conversation about a guy named Hoytt whose dogs he took care of. He remarked how Hoytt did his own ear crops at home(which, of course, he didn't recommend.) His comment were that Hoytt's dogs were "good" conformation wise(huh?) but would have pit bull ears and sold as guard dogs. He also said that the original Hoytt was the father and the sons run the operation.

Just a repetition of what the vet told me.
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post #30 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 10:57 PM
 
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In response to Julie W 15 Dec 07 post:
From my level of experience, you're right on every level. When my wife and I first moved to the states with our european male and female, we began looking into American breeders, and American breeders who advertise euro-lines. Hoytt and a few others were on our list of who to avoid. Hoytt--like Hismerh and Britton Farms to name a few--is a commercial breeder. All you have to do to inquire about the working/show quality of his dogs is look for their names in show results, trial results. Same for health. You'll not likely find a lot of results for genetic testing on VetGen, or hip and other joint testing on OFA (minus the number identified in a previous post). I suspect the only thing these commercial breeders are good at is marketing the dogs, not participating in breeding programs that are beneficial to the breed. Just my opinion.
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post #31 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-18-2008, 10:03 AM
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Seems like the more elaborate the web site, the more impressive the dogs must be!? Right?? Oh, well, if a good breeder, that REALLY cares about their puppies lives, and happiness, doesn't have the finances to put on a really good web site,etc, that must mean they don't have as good a dogs. Hmmm. good ole marketing strategy, is what it is all about. Puppies, are bred for families, and to be loved like a family member, they are raised in a HOME environment, not a kennel among 100 other dogs.
That is one clue as to what you are going to be looking at when looking for a puppy. When looking for a living, loving, feeling creature like a Dobie they have to be people oriented? So tell me how can a puppy relate to kids, any kind of individual, if they are one of 40+ puppies cranked out by the dozen, assemblyline style? If this breeder has to hire someone to do all that, that isn't true socializing, and if he does, he would have to tack on a
price tag to cover this "extra expense. People can say anything
they want, on their web sites, but how much of that is the "truth". Sometimes an unsuspecting family finds out the hard way. So I would listen to what some of these people are saying and try to read what "ISN'T" said on the fancy web sites.
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post #32 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaLab View Post
I'll chime in on this as I just had a surgical ear correction on my dog's right ear. My ear vet, Dr. Reece in Chicago, IL, made a remark in conversation about a guy named Hoytt whose dogs he took care of. He remarked how Hoytt did his own ear crops at home(which, of course, he didn't recommend.) His comment were that Hoytt's dogs were "good" conformation wise(huh?) but would have pit bull ears and sold as guard dogs. He also said that the original Hoytt was the father and the sons run the operation.

Just a repetition of what the vet told me.
House of Hoytt got it's start from producing working dogs for the military for World War II. It is funny to me that Barry is now anti Schutzhund, anti-protection etc. I got a chance to work a dog produced by him on a schutzhund field and they are like most American bred Dobes I have worked. Now I know why Barry doesn't support protection/schutzhund, it really does take a special athlete with correct character. I also talked to a guy last night in California whose first HOH Dobe died at age 4 of spinal cancer, and his replaced dog just died last week of DCM. What a shame, we all know what it is like to lose a friend, but twice in a row at an early age? Barry is willing to replace the dog again, but this guy is going elsewhere for his next dobe. I too am very sorry for your loss. I have lost two three dobes to DCM in the last 20 years, and they all still hurt.
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post #33 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-17-2008, 06:24 PM
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WOW this post has helped me. A friend of mine has 2 dogs from HOH decendants, an oversized male that was given to him by a friend and a female he bought from somebody who breed 2 dogs they had gotten from HOH.... My male came from Argentina and is a lex grandson... my friend came to me looking for a stud service so I showed him pics of my male and other males my dogs co-owenr had.... he liked my male, I went and liked his fawn girl.... talked it over and we did the breeding.... 7 pup wth great working potential are now 10 weeks old and most already in there new homs... but after reading this post this is the first and last time I let me boy breed to anyone I hae not yet fully looked into... the idea of my preciouse Ari comeing down with a seriouse problem at a younge age scares the hell out of me.... so I thank everyone who has contributed to this post for helping me get better informed. I just joined this forum and have learned so much in such a short time my mind is still spinning.

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post #34 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-17-2008, 08:32 PM
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This forum is great for learning... I'm with you on that!
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post #35 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 04:57 PM
 
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My God, guys, you scared me! I guess I may be too innocent... Well, Mr.Hoytt called me, sent me a video for free, was a real gentleman. If all he says is not the truth, he's the best actor I've ever seen! Edh, it was absolutely awesome to hear from someone that once bought a dog from him. That really opened my eyes. How about Braveheart Loyalheart doberman Pinschers. I love the breeder: Lucy! She seems to ADORE dobermans and dogs; she's really worried about where her dogs go to...
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post #36 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 05:12 PM
 
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Well, no! He doesn't sell to you just because you made a deposit online! I made a deposit once and he called me to talk to me to see if he would sell me a dog. Well, I've had dogs my entire life and I adore them and have great references, so I passed. However, my husband changed his mind and I did not buy the dog and he, immediately, got my 1,000.00 deposit back. Emailed me appreciative of my email explaining what had happened, etc. A real gentleman! I cannot say his dogs are perfect like he says, but he has 7 generation pedigrees behind your puppy to prove they are all healthy and bred inside the Hoytt name and family. I don't know how much a good doberman should cost, though. Good for me means sweet, trustworthy, very caring, never aggressive or dominant. A good pet that, also, takes care of us, if we need. I never heard anything bad about him, besides one person that (I was happy to hear from him, though) had a Hoytt dog that had skin allergy (not too bad, I think) and died at 8 years old. Nothing else! Have you heard from more people that, actually, owes a Hoytt doberman? Also, you say he breeds too much. He has a huuuuge place, gorgeous, comfortable for all his dogs. At the moment, for example, he has NO PUPPIES AVAILABLE until only God knows when... Last year his dogs were sold in a blink of an eye. It's always one female at a time and he has many... I really have not seen any problems, whatsoever, so far, coming from people that owe his dogs. I'd like to hear from LapDog. He said he owes a dobie that costed him 1,000.00 and the dog is excellent and so is the breeder. I'd like to know the name of the breeder and where he/she is located... thank you guys very much! If you have more information coming from people that owe a Hoytt doberman, let me know, please. I appreciate all your input, for sure. As soon as my husband allows me, finally, to get my dobie, I'll probably get it from Ms.Lucy (Braveheart Loyalheart Doberman Pinschers) unless someone else knows another breeder that is less expensive (2,500.00) and as good as she is... THANK YOU AGAIN.
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post #37 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvbirds59 View Post
What working or confirmation titles do they have? All their sires and dams should at the very minimum be titled in SchH or have their Ch in Confirmation before they are bred.
I purchased a Dobe from Hoytt and he died at 6 from cardiomyopothy. A friend's did also. I dislike Hoytt because to my knowledge he does not test for cardio. As far as having CH titles on his breeding stock. He advertises and sells companion Dobes. I see no reason for titles. Why title in Schutzhund if you only sell for companions. I will say this. He knows his bloodlines and is as good a judge of temperament as anyone. I believe he started out in the conformation ring or his father did. He has a very specific clientel and he supplies a product based on demand. He is very effective in the obedience ring achieving CD titles on many 6 month old Dobes. I just wish he would health test. He line breeds based on know genetic qualities but good health testing is not one of those qualities.
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post #38 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtc View Post
I purchased a Dobe from Hoytt and he died at 6 from cardiomyopothy. A friend's did also. I dislike Hoytt because to my knowledge he does not test for cardio. As far as having CH titles on his breeding stock. He advertises and sells companion Dobes. I see no reason for titles. Why title in Schutzhund if you only sell for companions. I will say this. He knows his bloodlines and is as good a judge of temperament as anyone. I believe he started out in the conformation ring or his father did. He has a very specific clientel and he supplies a product based on demand. He is very effective in the obedience ring achieving CD titles on many 6 month old Dobes. I just wish he would health test. He line breeds based on know genetic qualities but good health testing is not one of those qualities.
In any given litter from CH or titled parents there are lots of puppies who are nothing more then pet/companion quality, those are the puppies the rest of us should be buying. None of us should be buying from breeders who's dogs live their entire lives in kennels just so we can get a puppy! Think about how cruel that is for a Doberman! They are the velcro dog, they NEED to be by a persons side 24/7 not used as breeding machines for their short life, stuck in a cage. Longevity is number one on my list if I ever purchase another Doberman.

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post #39 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 05:42 PM
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I am so sorry for all of you that lost your precious Dobe's way too early.
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post #40 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 06:24 PM
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I think it is very wrong to put a CD on a 6 month old. How stressful for the poor puppy. I'm sure any one could do this but I don't know anyone who would do that to a baby.
The only two Hoyt dogs I've known were both put to sleep with Rage Syndrome.

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post #41 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 06:34 PM
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Hoytt

I had a nice looking red male from the Kennel. Went down to pick him up. Everything struck me as strictly business - selling dobes makes money. Dog was diagnosed with chronic active hepatitis. Diagnosis confirmed at two vet schools including the University of Pennsylvania.

Called Hoytt, not to return dog or complain, but to let him know that the line he used should not be continued. He told me the dog must be misdiagnosed. He tried to tell me I didn't understand the disease andon and on.

Bottom line, he said i was wrong and he would continue to use the line. Dog died, autopsy confirmed diagnosis. I wouldn't use Hoytt for anything.
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post #42 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 06:53 PM
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Welcome to Dobermantalk, Lucianamsimon. You will find here, a very active community of Doberman enthusiasts from all sorts of backgrounds. It's a great place to share you experiences and learn more about the breed through others' experiences and areas of knowledge. I hope you enjoy your stay.

I do have a couple of comments though, regarding your posts quoted below:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucianamsimon View Post
My God, guys, you scared me! I guess I may be too innocent... Well, Mr.Hoytt called me, sent me a video for free, was a real gentleman. If all he says is not the truth, he's the best actor I've ever seen!
That's great that you found Mr. Hoytt to be a good communicator, however it takes MUCH more than that to be considered a reputable and well respected breeder.

Quote:
How about Braveheart Loyalheart doberman Pinschers. I love the breeder: Lucy! She seems to ADORE dobermans and dogs; she's really worried about where her dogs go to...
I think it can be said that nearly every actively posting DT forum member adores Dobermans and dogs. That's why we're here. A love and passion for the breed and dogs in general, and a concern as to the placement of their puppies, does not make someone a reputable breeder. I don't doubt that most BYB's have concern for the types of homes their puppies go to as well, but it's the follow-up and support given to those homes and the willingness to take back their puppies should the need arise that's lacking on their part, and is what separates the truly great breeders from the rest. That and several other factors including FULL health testing (heart, hips, elbows, eyes, thyroid, liver/kidney panel, vWD status...), and involvement with their dogs in a venue to prove their worthiness as contributors to the breed (structure, temperment and ability to "work," etc.),and really so much more... that just touches on a couple of things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucianamsimon View Post
I cannot say his dogs are perfect like he says, but he has 7 generation pedigrees behind your puppy to prove they are all healthy and bred inside the Hoytt name and family.
No reputable breeder will ever try to fool anyone into believing their dogs are "perfect." Good breeders are honest and upfront about the challenges they have faced and the goals they'd like to achieve within their breeding program to improve the breed overall. It's a never-ending quest. If Mr. Hoytt says his dogs are "perfect" then I expect to see at least one of them in this year's AKC Top 20 or if the working lines are more his style then perhaps a regular podium winner at upcoming national working dog/bitesport trials of somesort (not something I know much about). It should be no problem if they're perfect, right?

And lastly, please understand that a 7 generation pedigree behind a puppy does NOT, under any circumstances prove anything about their health. Even the benefit of a puppy having parents with full health testing provides no guarantees.

"I will lend to you for awhile, a Doberman pup," God said...
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post #43 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrussell View Post
He told me the dog must be misdiagnosed. He tried to tell me I didn't understand the disease andon and on.

Bottom line, he said i was wrong and he would continue to use the line. Dog died, autopsy confirmed diagnosis. I wouldn't use Hoytt for anything.
Well of course the dog must have been misdiagnosed, because apparently he insists his kennel's dogs are perfect.

How arrogant....

(Not you, wrussell! Thank you for sharing. )

"I will lend to you for awhile, a Doberman pup," God said...
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post #44 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 07:13 PM
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I sold a pup this year to a woman who bought her last dobe from Hoytt, thankfully she found better breeders this time around, she had been on a waiting list with Maryanddobes, but not enough girls, so she ended up with me, anyway, we had several long discussions, and she told me that although she loved her girl dearly, they had many temperament problems with her. She was aggressive. The only good thing I could say for Hoytt is that his contract didn't allow spaying till after a year, so when I told her that requirement in my contract she said no problem, had been there before and was fine with it.
I hate the thought of dobes in a kennel, was not what the breed was created for.

Elizabeth
Dobermans aren't my whole life, they just make it whole.
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post #45 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-09-2009, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdd View Post
The only two Hoyt dogs I've known were both put to sleep with Rage Syndrome.
I bet that did a lot to disspell the whole 'their brain grows too large for their heads and then they turn on you' myth.

Sundobe

Nothing is 'natural' about drop ears. All pure breeds are designed by man with a purpose, form, function and look that is is their heritage, their history - important parts of what made the breed and must be respected and preserved.

If we want the right to have that CHOICE, let's stand up and fight for ALL choice! Let's NOT remain neutral or silent about losing the right to choose just because YOUR choice may not be the one threatened!

In doG, we trust.

Last edited by sundobe; 01-09-2009 at 07:26 PM.
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post #46 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 11:12 PM
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hoytt

Bought a HoH dog about 8 yrs ago. Great dog for the 2 years i owned him. Underdeveloped kidneys he had to be put down. Now that wonderful HoH guarantee? I followed the loopholes and for the next 18 months i tried to get a replacement for my pup. There were months at a time that his secretary/wife would politely tell me "barry was busy can i take your name and he will get right back to you". Months at a time calling once a week or so. FINALLY he replaced my dog. Got a nice dog again..after about 5 years i was going to get a second pup...i started calling barry to BUY a nother pup. After 4 weeks i gave up. THEN I discovered lumps in my pups neck area..8 weeks later my dog was gone due to Lymphoma...fyi he had a murmur as well. Oh and incedently..the last time i chekced his website..his warranty has dropped down to 4 yrs ..not 7. Whatever...I wouldnt take another HoH if it was driven to my door and begged me to. My current pup is a dream, and the training isnt nearly as bad as i thought it would be. Thank to DT forums i found a nice breeder..many of them actually, Im already planning for a nother a year or two from now. So do your research here and get on a list. time flies! but stay away from hoh.
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post #47 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-14-2009, 07:12 AM
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Bought a HoH dog about 8 yrs ago. Great dog for the 2 years i owned him. Underdeveloped kidneys he had to be put down. Now that wonderful HoH guarantee? I followed the loopholes and for the next 18 months i tried to get a replacement for my pup. There were months at a time that his secretary/wife would politely tell me "barry was busy can i take your name and he will get right back to you". Months at a time calling once a week or so. FINALLY he replaced my dog. Got a nice dog again..after about 5 years i was going to get a second pup...i started calling barry to BUY a nother pup. After 4 weeks i gave up. THEN I discovered lumps in my pups neck area..8 weeks later my dog was gone due to Lymphoma...fyi he had a murmur as well. Oh and incedently..the last time i chekced his website..his warranty has dropped down to 4 yrs ..not 7. Whatever...I wouldnt take another HoH if it was driven to my door and begged me to. My current pup is a dream, and the training isnt nearly as bad as i thought it would be. Thank to DT forums i found a nice breeder..many of them actually, Im already planning for a nother a year or two from now. So do your research here and get on a list. time flies! but stay away from hoh.
Your post brought a good point up. I too looked into this breeder, and the way they describe dog training they make you think it would be easier to swim with sharks than to train a puppy. I thoroughly enjoy dog training, it can be a really fun hobby and is a great way to bond with a dog. I think the super training they offer is a way to jack up the prices.

I wanted to add, I'm so sorry for your losses. To many early losses from this breeder

"Pretty pink, baby blue
Why don't you teach me something new
We're all just babies in my view"-
Outkast
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post #48 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-14-2009, 07:37 AM
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You made me LOL at the swim with sharks comment! hahaa
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post #49 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-15-2009, 01:14 AM
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Hey, I'm the first to admit that picking up a dog at 16 weeks of age, trained perfectly, on leash and off to sit stay heel and come...on and off leash! that is impressive and very convenient if you are a homeowner. But the heartache you have to endure at a way to early age isnt worth it. and the 5k he charges for this? well i can by two or three dogs for that and train myself and have fun bonding. So i clean a little poop and Natures Miracle a few pee spots. Well worth the savings. Stay away from hoh. Word to the wise
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post #50 of 207 (permalink) Old 01-15-2009, 09:10 AM
 
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I don't think the message will ever sink in to novice perspective buyers. The negative reviews of this breeder has been well established for almost 40 years. I ran my own rescue in my home state (CT.), in the 60's and 70's. The amount of times their name was involved was ridiculous not just health issues with the dogs the people he sold to where overwhelmed with the time and work involved raising a dobermann pup. This is always both party's fault, but responsible breeders know who to pass on and who to educate. We did not have forums years ago to investigate reputations so maybe this situation will improve. To me the main problem is health issues for all breeders, but when you are mass producing with these issues persisting this has been very sad for a very long time. perspective buyers please READ UP.
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