Important announcement re: posting about breeders - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #26 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 01:59 PM
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Tone, intent and context are sometimes difficult to convey in a purely text format. Just sayin
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post #27 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rummel View Post
Think it's safe to say RFR won't be thanking the OP's post.
No, but I'm sure going to thank yours! LOL

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post #28 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Murreydobe View Post
I think a lot of the time the problem is HOW those questions are asked. There's a big difference between saying you're interested in how breeders make the decisions they make, and ask nicely if a breeder can explain their logic.

MOST of the time I see these questions get asked in a really combative, accusing manner-and I can tell you MY reaction to a question asked of me like that would be: **** off.

In the end, the only people a breeder *needs* to offer any explanations to are their puppy buyers and maybe their peers. If they decide to use their decisions as an educational tool, then that's a gift-and people don't usually get gifted for being abrasive and insulting.
I should have added this to MY post!! LOL

You are so right!


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post #29 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monicaei View Post
Tone, intent and context are sometimes difficult to convey in a purely text format. Just sayin
Come on now....

We have all seen the posts that start with the "Well I would NEVER" and "I am SHOCKED" Pretty hard to misinterpret those. LOL.

I went back through all the posts on the thread we are all referring to. Very few actual questions and a lot of opinions...most of them very negative.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the breeding, I am just using your comment in tandem with the other thread as an example.


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post #30 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaineK9 View Post
Come on now....

We have all seen the posts that start with the "Well I would NEVER" and "I am SHOCKED" Pretty hard to misinterpret those. LOL.

I went back through all the posts on the thread we are all referring to. Very few actual questions and a lot of opinions...most of them very negative.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the breeding, I am just using your comment in tandem with the other thread as an example.
Enh, I asked a pretty innocuous question re: "holtering and young dogs" on that thread and somewhere lost in internet translation I felt pretty misinterpreted. I simply want to acknowledge it does happen.
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post #31 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rummel View Post
Think it's safe to say RFR won't be thanking the OP's post.
I did not mean to thank this post. Where is the delete button when I need it. I meant to quote and respond.

I dislike pointing fingers. Sometimes I question the way a presentation is made to others. I get embarrassed for the posters as well. But, RFR is knowledgeable in many areas and seems to love this breed. Wish we could just go forward in a positive way and stop pointing fingers at folks who probably mean well and let their passion get the better of them or lose their patience.

I've been guilty of pushing send and wishing later I could take it back.

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post #32 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaineK9 View Post
I agree.

I guess is comes down to personalities...I really don't know why a person would feel the right to take advantage of the list with a litter announcement and then not be willing to talk about the decisions they made.

I do feel this list is frequently used for selling puppies...and I don't mean that necessarily as a bad thing. I think it should be allowed, but when you hold yourself to a high breeding standard, then you should be willing to share your reasons and experiences with the masses. Now if this was a long time breeders only list that may be different, but it's not. This list is primarily pet owners with a few notable exceptions, therefore the expectations in my book are different.
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Originally Posted by Murreydobe View Post
I think a lot of the time the problem is HOW those questions are asked. There's a big difference between saying you're interested in how breeders make the decisions they make, and ask nicely if a breeder can explain their logic.

MOST of the time I see these questions get asked in a really combative, accusing manner-and I can tell you MY reaction to a question asked of me like that would be: **** off.

In the end, the only people a breeder *needs* to offer any explanations to are their puppy buyers and maybe their peers. If they decide to use their decisions as an educational tool, then that's a gift-and people don't usually get gifted for being abrasive and insulting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monicaei View Post
Tone, intent and context are sometimes difficult to convey in a purely text format. Just sayin
I agree with all three of these things.

So far as intent and context goes, I have so much trouble in person with people thinking I'm being horribly mean because of my deadpan, sarcastic stripe of humor, that I take extra care online. In person, I'm rarely, if ever, accused of being diplomatic. I'm opinionated, bitchy, and love being a know it all when it comes to brutalizing people with my intellect.

When it comes to DT, I can't be a know it all. Because I don't know. Which is why I get excited when breeders that have been spoken well of post, and when I try to stay out of it as well (other than asking questions I hadn't seen asked, that I'm genuinely interested in). My Doberman knowledge comes from having Elka, and having you folks, and that is so very valuable to me.

Thank you, everybody, bitchy and not. I love you guys

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post #33 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 05:00 PM
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Friends
Sometimes we, being the human beings that we are, inadvertently place our friends and/or people that we know on a pedestal. This is unfair to the friend, as well as to ourselves. By doing so, the friendship or idealization will inevitably lead to disappointment or failure. There are very few people that can live up to anothers expectations or idealizations. There are even fewer, if given the choice, who would want to be held at/to such a high regard.

To expect anything of a friend that has not been implied, offered or promised is self-serving. Moreover, to become angry, disappointed and utter remarks that malign this person because they have not lived up to your expectations is actually a character flaw on your part...not theirs.

The above is from someone I meet many years ago. I have never meet the breeder that
is mentioned, I have spoken on the phone with him and thru emails, this spring. He has
been ripped by this forum and in the spring by some member of the UDC, for what happened at the Nationals. I just wonder how you, (non-breeders) can even say what you would do, you have never been placed in that position. I for one think this thread should be
closed. This breeder has gone through enough!

I realize that I will be flamed for this post, but it is just my op.... and you don't have to agree,
just try to be kinder to your fellow dog friends...............
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post #34 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy View Post
Friends
Sometimes we, being the human beings that we are, inadvertently place our friends and/or people that we know on a pedestal. This is unfair to the friend, as well as to ourselves. By doing so, the friendship or idealization will inevitably lead to disappointment or failure. There are very few people that can live up to anothers expectations or idealizations. There are even fewer, if given the choice, who would want to be held at/to such a high regard.

To expect anything of a friend that has not been implied, offered or promised is self-serving. Moreover, to become angry, disappointed and utter remarks that malign this person because they have not lived up to your expectations is actually a character flaw on your part...not theirs.

The above is from someone I meet many years ago. I have never meet the breeder that
is mentioned, I have spoken on the phone with him and thru emails, this spring. He has
been ripped by this forum and in the spring by some member of the UDC, for what happened at the Nationals. I just wonder how you, (non-breeders) can even say what you would do, you have never been placed in that position. I for one think this thread should be
closed. This breeder has gone through enough!

I realize that I will be flamed for this post, but it is just my op.... and you don't have to agree,
just try to be kinder to your fellow dog friends...............

Thanks for your thoughts Happy, but this thread is not about any breeder in particular.

Kelli
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post #35 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy View Post
Friends
Sometimes we, being the human beings that we are, inadvertently place our friends and/or people that we know on a pedestal. This is unfair to the friend, as well as to ourselves. By doing so, the friendship or idealization will inevitably lead to disappointment or failure. There are very few people that can live up to anothers expectations or idealizations. There are even fewer, if given the choice, who would want to be held at/to such a high regard.

To expect anything of a friend that has not been implied, offered or promised is self-serving. Moreover, to become angry, disappointed and utter remarks that malign this person because they have not lived up to your expectations is actually a character flaw on your part...not theirs...
Very wise words.


I think what bothers quite a few on this list is the blind hero worship. Some very unlikely heroes have been created here, indeed, over the years.

Some have been put on pedestals, and some do not like it when others point out those pedestals aren't so shiny and their idol does in fact have feet of clay.

Inevitably, humans will disappoint each other.

What does not sit well for me is when those foibles, transgressions, and mistakes are swept under the rug, whispered about only in select circles, or hinted about darkly.

I feel so very bad for the newbs to the dog world, or to the Doberman breed--what a minefield they must tiptoe through!

I want the public to be educated, truly educated, so they at least have the option--if their character allows--to choose wisely and well, and then successfully raise that puppy or rehab that rescue, so that it becomes a breed ambassador.

To speak to our one-post wonders who come on to poke and stir--why do you not contribute more to this forum, if you so disagree with those who post here? If you disagree with something I post, or how I post it, then post the opposing viewpoint, yourself. Have the integrity to attempt to educate folks in the way you see best---that's why it's an open forum.

As for "not thanking" Meadowcat's post, erm, she and I have a long history of cooperation and collaboration, working towards the welfare of our own animals, and those in foster care.

I am still pondering her post, frankly, and tend to not "thank" posts that are very long and weighty, with lots of food for thought, until I can digest those words, and feel qualified to comment.

I was busy all day on a rescue transport, so, nope, haven't thanked the post yet, and still thinking. Which is likely more than some are doing, and that's a shame, as MC clearly tried to make some good points, not sure some of them weren't completely missed by the few usual complainers.




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post #36 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 09:27 PM
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I have stepped away from this forum for approximately the past 1-1/2 years due to the many "strong" comments made towards our dogs breeder ( we have a male and a female from our breeder ) . I took the attack personally, as the attack may have looked like it was towards our breeder, but I have 2 dogs from our breeder, and felt that attact was also on my dogs and myself and our "obvious" poor choice of breeders.

I have seen my breeders health tests, have met my Dogs sires and dams.....and my breeder encourages us to continue health testing with our dogs----not for the purpose of breeding, but for our own personal betterment of the breed. So when I hear of her being "thrown under the bus" by an uneducated person, it infuriates me. Our male is in a heart study, getting tested yearly for the betterment of the breed....as well as thyroid, eyes and hips. Our female will follow after she is 2 yrs of age. I ask how many breeders encourage their clients to do this with "their" dogs. It is obvious to me that my breeder is not afraid to seek out health issues in any of her dogs.

Our breeder is not a wealthy person in the material sense, but is with friends and family she has accumulated thru her business. She currently has 7 of her retired dogs, and 5 intact dogs living in her home. For me, to actually have met my males great-grandmother, who is still alive at 14 yrs. of age, is a testiment to her ethics. I for one am proud to not only call her a personal friend, but feel fortunate to have 2 of her dogs to care for for their duration of their life.


I agree with your comment that you have lost many breeders who could have benefited this forum greatly with their personal/business experience in regards to raising Dobermans. I just wanted to let you know how disappointed I was, as a Doberman owner, to have had to come onto this forum shortly after adopting our first dog and see our breeder getting "criticized" by people who never even met her, let alone truly know her business practices. For those "new" parents who came to this site looking for advice only to be forced to defend their choice of breeders.....on their behalf I say "shame on you all"!!
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post #37 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 09:45 PM
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I have yet to meet any show or working line breeder I would consider really ignorant. So I don't think any "good" breeder can claim ignorance when they post a controversial breeding announcement. And perhaps if they decide to post a potentially controversial breeding announcement they could also proactively bestow upon the pet forum members some helpful information, seeing as though it's generally understood among the breeding crowd that pet people are not knowledgeable and lack flexibility in their understanding due to that. Otherwise it seems to me they're setting up the situation to be a reactionary one in which they expect a group of people lacking breeder knowledge to be immediately understanding of their decisions. In which case, how can mere pet forum members be faulted for reacting to "Good" Breeder's controversial announcement in the same manner as they would "Bad" Breeder's controversial announcement?

If "good" breeders are the keepers of breed knowledge and it irritates them so for pet people to have such a negative reaction to controversial breedings they choose to share on the internet, maybe they'd also like to seek to educate all these pet people rather than just inform internet patrons that they'll be having a litter. Seems to me that experienced stewards of the breed might be the best candidate to spearhead breed education with passionate pet people. Pet people may be viewed as annoying, pesky, and ignorant by the breeder crowd but there sure would be a whole lot of show and working line puppies with no where to go if it weren't for pet people who love Dobermans. I also have to say for all the complaints about pet people snobbery and judgement regarding breeding decisions, a good pet home is often times one of the best advocates for supporting good breeders. Breeders don't have to answer to anyone...but wouldn't it be great to make sure pet people are all armed with as much knowledge as they can get their hands on?




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Last edited by brw1982; 07-29-2012 at 09:48 PM.
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post #38 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 05:31 AM
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To clarify my standing, I didn't write this response regarding my breeder posting a litter announcement...which I can't say she has ever done or not done on this site. It was written to allow all of the readers some insight into what I have experienced when posting on this forum.

Our male was born in November 2008, and he came home approx February 2009. We joined the forum in April of that year looking for knowledge regarding our dogs breed. We thought what a wonderful place to come and get knowledge from other more experienced Doberman owners. What we experienced was a lot of negativity, harsh words, and not a lot of professionalism when posting. We found it better to just read posts rather than to post a question because things got twisted from a few people, and then we were defending our choice of breeder.

I have my location listed, and my dogs names listed also so that the people I am really talking to recognize themselves. And I know that they do! To them, I say "shame on you" for the negativity you have brought to our first experience on this forum. Unfortunately, a lot of people got painted with the same brush, when only a handful should have been.

I feel that everyone should be able to express their own opinion, but the line should be drawn when personal "speculation" comes into play, and "facts" don't.
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post #39 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 06:51 AM
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Great post.

I think at the end of the day, everyones view of ethical and unethical is different, so one person cannot say THIS is ethical or THIS is unethical. I know there is a lot of things people find perfectly ethical which I certainly do not, and I'm sure there are things I find ethical which others do not.

The reason I love this forum is because most people hold breeders to very high standards, it's what separates this forum from many others. I think we have to make personal decisions about who we do and don't find ethical. I do think it's important we carry on informing puppy buyers or potential puppy buyers about our opinions on breeders so they can make a more informed choice, or perhaps not make what we would consider to be mistakes in the future. I also think its important that they're sad in a way that wouldn't be construed as a personal attack, but it's very difficult when people feel so passionately about their puppies and forum members feel so passionately about the breed. I have to say from what I've read, most arguments happen when people we would consider informed still choose to make what we would consider awful buying decisions.

If I were ever going to breed, I would want to shout my breeding announcement from the rooftops because I would be so proud of what I was adding to the dobermann breed.



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post #40 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 07:04 AM
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As one of those ignorant and uninformed pet people, I just want to say THANK YOU FOR THIS.

On here, sometimes, it feels like you could be a neurosurgeon in the real world but still treated like a drooling imbecile because you could never possibly understand the complexity which is dog breeding if you are just a "pet person".

Quote:
Originally Posted by brw1982 View Post
I have yet to meet any show or working line breeder I would consider really ignorant. So I don't think any "good" breeder can claim ignorance when they post a controversial breeding announcement. And perhaps if they decide to post a potentially controversial breeding announcement they could also proactively bestow upon the pet forum members some helpful information, seeing as though it's generally understood among the breeding crowd that pet people are not knowledgeable and lack flexibility in their understanding due to that. Otherwise it seems to me they're setting up the situation to be a reactionary one in which they expect a group of people lacking breeder knowledge to be immediately understanding of their decisions. In which case, how can mere pet forum members be faulted for reacting to "Good" Breeder's controversial announcement in the same manner as they would "Bad" Breeder's controversial announcement?

If "good" breeders are the keepers of breed knowledge and it irritates them so for pet people to have such a negative reaction to controversial breedings they choose to share on the internet, maybe they'd also like to seek to educate all these pet people rather than just inform internet patrons that they'll be having a litter. Seems to me that experienced stewards of the breed might be the best candidate to spearhead breed education with passionate pet people. Pet people may be viewed as annoying, pesky, and ignorant by the breeder crowd but there sure would be a whole lot of show and working line puppies with no where to go if it weren't for pet people who love Dobermans. I also have to say for all the complaints about pet people snobbery and judgement regarding breeding decisions, a good pet home is often times one of the best advocates for supporting good breeders. Breeders don't have to answer to anyone...but wouldn't it be great to make sure pet people are all armed with as much knowledge as they can get their hands on?
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post #41 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monicaei View Post
As one of those ignorant and uninformed pet people, I just want to say THANK YOU FOR THIS.

On here, sometimes, it feels like you could be a neurosurgeon in the real world but still treated like a drooling imbecile because you could never possibly understand the complexity which is dog breeding if you are just a "pet person".
Seriously?

It's comments like yours that make me, (oh yeah one of the high and mighty breeders) say screw it. Why bother commenting when people like you take "pet people" labels so personally. Like it's a derogatory comment. Actually I happen to think pet people are a breeders best friend, giving loving forever homes our my puppies.

Thanks though, you just gave me a reason to take another break from this list and this thread in particular. Honest to Pete anyway.

Oh and by the way I have found that some of the most intelligent and highly educated people in this world make the worst dog owners. I guess it's because they think they know everything already and because higher education doesn't include classes in COMMON SENSE.


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post #42 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 09:25 AM
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I have to say I can see where monicaei and brw1982 are coming from in those posts, I have seen more than a few posts which insinuated that because a poster is not a breeder, they are not qualified to give an opinion on someone's breeding decisions.



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post #43 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 09:27 AM
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brw, very nicely written post, best in this thread so far to me.
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post #44 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 09:48 AM
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I hardly ever post about my personal dogs or co-owned dogs on this forum anymore. I still post here, but not nearly as much as I used to. I did not post an announcement about my last litter till after they were born - and then got slammed by another "breeder" for doing a beautiful line breeding of a 4 year old unfinished bitch (major pointed) to a finished dog that was less than 2. All grandparents were fully health tested, the bitch was fully health tested and the sire will be. I felt totally attacked even after I gave a full explanation of my reasoning. I pretty much posted very little after that. None of my puppy people in 3 litters have come directly from this forum, so I sure don't post here to find buyers. My next litter won't be for at least 3 years.................... so if I continue to post it sure isn't to find buyers. I very rarely criticize other breeders unless they are obviously doing things really wrong. I don't claim to be perfect and could probably health test even more than I already do, but I do a lot of health testing.................... just not sure I could live up to some peoples lofty expectations - LOL! I also don't have a lot of available time for dog sports due to a busy family life with teenagers -so I have to choose my dog events carefully.
I will keep posting here - but facebook has replaced DT as where I post my updates.... more people who appreciate them and less grief for it.

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post #45 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
I feel so very bad for the newbs to the dog world, or to the Doberman breed--what a minefield they must tiptoe through!

I want the public to be educated, truly educated, so they at least have the option--if their character allows--to choose wisely and well, and then successfully raise that puppy or rehab that rescue, so that it becomes a breed ambassador.
This is why I'm here, and reading everything I have time to read.
With my first Dobe, six months ago, I suddenly realized I was lucky enough to participate in the life of one of the best dogs on earth.

I just hope I can do right by her, and her breed. And that the people who know best take care to make good choices in keeping Dobermans around forever.

And...to ask one more favour...please keep lending advice to the owners like me, who depend on the knowledge of experienced Dobe folk to make the best decisions for our dogs.
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post #46 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelia_ View Post
I have to say I can see where monicaei and brw1982 are coming from in those posts, I have seen more than a few posts which insinuated that because a poster is not a breeder, they are not qualified to give an opinion on someone's breeding decisions.
Hell, I'm probably NOT qualified to have an opinion but asking questions to form one doesn't seem like it should be completely outta bounds.

Consider this my gesture of goodwill... In an effort not to have anyone else storm off in a huff and take their knowledge with them, I will refrain from posting anymore in the breeding section.

I'll stick to posting about the harmless stuff
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post #47 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monicaei View Post
Hell, I'm probably NOT qualified to have an opinion but asking questions to form one doesn't seem like it should be completely outta bounds.

Consider this my gesture of goodwill... In an effort not to have anyone else storm off in a huff and take their knowledge with them, I will refrain from posting anymore in the breeding section.

I'll stick to posting about the harmless stuff
Asking questions is how you learn - and that is a good thing. It is how some people react to the answers or ask the questions that can be the problem. I personally have never minded answering questions about my own breeding program. I try to do everything right but am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination - and we never stop learning.
Ok, I'm going back to my vacation now - after watching some olympics - the beach is calling

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post #48 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 10:32 AM
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Some of you are forgetting is the established reputable breeders almost always have far more qualified people wanting a puppy than puppies available. The breeders who have been at it for a while normally have several repeat buyers for any given litter as well, and those people are normally given some priority as they have proven track records. Tara was my last purchase and over half of her litter went to repeat buyers. Most reputable first-time breeders... breed their first litter as a co-breeding... with the established breeder so they also benefit from the established breeders contacts, referrals and repeat buyers.

Having owned this breed for over 40 years, in my opinion, if DT went away tomorrow, it would make little difference to the reputable breeders as far as placing puppies. I am not a breeder, just my perspective as an owner.

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post #49 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
I hardly ever post about my personal dogs or co-owned dogs on this forum anymore. I still post here, but not nearly as much as I used to. I did not post an announcement about my last litter till after they were born - and then got slammed by another "breeder" for doing a beautiful line breeding of a 4 year old unfinished bitch (major pointed) to a finished dog that was less than 2. All grandparents were fully health tested, the bitch was fully health tested and the sire will be. I felt totally attacked even after I gave a full explanation of my reasoning. I pretty much posted very little after that. None of my puppy people in 3 litters have come directly from this forum, so I sure don't post here to find buyers. My next litter won't be for at least 3 years.................... so if I continue to post it sure isn't to find buyers. I very rarely criticize other breeders unless they are obviously doing things really wrong. I don't claim to be perfect and could probably health test even more than I already do, but I do a lot of health testing.................... just not sure I could live up to some peoples lofty expectations - LOL! I also don't have a lot of available time for dog sports due to a busy family life with teenagers -so I have to choose my dog events carefully.
I will keep posting here - but facebook has replaced DT as where I post my updates.... more people who appreciate them and less grief for it.
I for one miss seeing your posts and the posts of other "pillars" of the Doberman community, be they breeders, handlers, vets or just good solid knowledgeable pet owners. I, too, left a couple of years back, didn't even lurk and read. I left because some of the posts to regular folks like me, although not directed to me, just made me sad. I could see people seeking knowledge being discouraged and leaving. (Although some times those folks seeking knowledge were themselves acting like contrary two-year olds.) I've recently seen posts that were probably worthy of being made to correct/educate a person's actions turn totally disrespectful with dessert requests and all thoughts of education or simple human kindness gone.

Here I go, de-railing and I don't mean to. I'll look for you on facebook.

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post #50 of 100 (permalink) Old 07-30-2012, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
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I wanted to post a clarification about this thread. The opening post is not just from me, it was posted on behalf of the entire mod team. I realized I wasn't clear about that in the first post (and will edit it accordingly).


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