A good BYB? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit poncho's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts
 
A good BYB?

Thank you all who have responed to my previous posts.

One question I would like to discuss with you all. Why can't there be a good BYB in your eyes? I would love to get a Doberman that is of very high quality. I don't think you need to show and finish a dog. Many of you who show have admitted in posts I previously read is it has alot to do with politics. One stated they judge the handler more than the dog.

One thing I would love to do is to get a bitch completely health tested, and breed to another health tested dog. I would love to help create healthy happy dobe pups. Maybe one litter a year. Why would this make my pups any less worthy than if they are from titled parents? I would not be looking to sell these pups for the ridiculous prices that are out there. Just a fair price to wonderful families.

Along time ago, I showed Morgan horses. Spent a fortune!! Got beat by the "who's who" at times. I saw judges intentionally look away when "their" favorite was messing up in the ring. I love to watch the dog shows, just don't want to do that anymore.

Last thing, if everyone who wanted a Dobe just as a treasured pet bought only from breeders that showed their dogs, there would not be enough Dobes.
Yes, I know there are Dobes to be rescued, (have had many pound puppies in my life) but we all know most people are going to want the puppy.
Poncho
poncho is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to poncho For This Useful Post:
CandaceSmith (08-02-2011)
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 08:51 PM
Alpha
 
LindaH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,038
Dogs Name: Sunburg's Indian River Park "Parker"
Dogs Age: Born May 24, 2007
Gallery Pics: 25
Visit LindaH's Gallery
Thanks: 24,910
Thanked 24,133 Times in 9,828 Posts
Images: 25
                     
If you do it right you will loose a lot of bucks!!! Even if you never showed your bitch. It cost a LOT of money to raise a litter right. So unless your willing to light a match to a couple of thousand dollars I would forget it.

All dogs deserve a good home

Subscribe to this newsletter first:
http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/

How to select a good dog kibble
https://boxerworld.com/forums/pages/...-dry-dog-food/

Dog food information:
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main

Diet additives and Raw diet information
http://www.dogaware.com/articles/index.html
LindaH is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to LindaH For This Useful Post:
Brandy&Melanie (04-21-2012), dax0402 (03-07-2011)
post #3 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 08:55 PM
Alpha
 
Julie W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,715
Location: Oregon
Dogs Name: Cher & Ethan
Titles: WAC, TT, CGC, AD
Dogs Age: 11/02/05 & 04/20/11
Gallery Pics: 17
Visit Julie W's Gallery
Thanks: 2,402
Thanked 10,807 Times in 2,389 Posts
Images: 17
                     
Send a message via AIM to Julie W
Because the only way to have a thorough knowledge of not only your own dogs, but the ones behind them in their pedigrees, is to be involved in competing with them where they are proven. It takes years to have a GOOD working knowledge of the breed over enough generations to have a solid enough grasp to attempt breeding. It doesn't have to be showing, if working lines are your thing instead, then they should be TITLED there instead. Somebody just saying that their dog is beautiful in their eyes and has a great temperament and good health isn't nearly enough to go on. Saying that there wouldn't be enough to go around if there were only good breeders is really quite a moot point as there will ALWAYS be the "Kimbertals" of the world populating. We don't need even more poor and byb's.

Julie W is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Julie W For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (03-07-2011)
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:00 PM
Sea Hag
 
Murreydobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,933

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Murreydobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,083
Thanked 34,683 Times in 7,941 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by poncho View Post
Thank you all who have responed to my previous posts.

One question I would like to discuss with you all. Why can't there be a good BYB in your eyes? I would love to get a Doberman that is of very high quality. I don't think you need to show and finish a dog.
There are important aspects to showing dogs that have nothing to do with putting a championship on the dog. The first is the knowledge you pick up along the way...very, very few people who have never shown dogs really have comparable knowledge about structure, movement, etc...and this is all important information if you're going to produce sound animals who are good representatives of the breed.

Additionally, good breeding isn't done in a vacuum. You need to get out there and see what particular genetic combinations work, which ones don't, what particular traits stud dogs (and lines) tend to produce with regularity.

There just aren't that many GOOD homes for dobermans (or any breed) in this country...we really don't need people breeding that many more. Considering the thousands of dogs in rescues and shelters, it's only morally correct to breed only those animals who've been proven to be the best of the bunch.



Murreydobe is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Murreydobe For This Useful Post:
barb0604 (10-03-2010), dax0402 (03-07-2011)
post #5 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:04 PM
Owned by Dobes since 1975
 
Darkevs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 30,675
Location: BC, Canada!
Dogs Name: Charlie & Naughty Dottie!
Titles: BDIH & BND
Dogs Age: 7 3/4 & 3
Gallery Pics: 46
Visit Darkevs's Gallery
Thanks: 86,447
Thanked 50,157 Times in 19,284 Posts
Images: 46
                     
poncho,
I was just going to ask what is THE definition of a BYB . As it seems I have been classed as one, even though no one here knows very much about my history in the breed or my dogs. So alpha's, what is your definition.
Darkevs is offline  
post #6 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:09 PM
Sea Hag
 
Murreydobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,933

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Murreydobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,083
Thanked 34,683 Times in 7,941 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by poncho View Post
Thank you all who have responed to my previous posts.

One question I would like to discuss with you all. Why can't there be a good BYB in your eyes? I would love to get a Doberman that is of very high quality. I don't think you need to show and finish a dog.
There are important aspects to showing dogs that have nothing to do with putting a championship on the dog. The first is the knowledge you pick up along the way...very, very few people who have never shown dogs really have comparable knowledge about structure, movement, etc...and this is all important information if you're going to produce sound animals who are good representatives of the breed.

Additionally, good breeding isn't done in a vacuum. You need to get out there and see what particular genetic combinations work, which ones don't, what particular traits stud dogs (and lines) tend to produce with regularity.

There just aren't that many GOOD homes for dobermans (or any breed) in this country...we really don't need people breeding that many more. Considering the thousands of dogs in rescues and shelters, it's only morally correct to breed only those animals who've been proven to be the best of the bunch.




Last edited by Murreydobe; 10-29-2007 at 09:11 PM. Reason: duplicate post (unknown reasons why)
Murreydobe is offline  
post #7 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:14 PM
Super Moderator
 
greenkouki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,920
Location: SC

Gallery Pics: 77
Visit greenkouki's Gallery
Thanks: 19,774
Thanked 30,679 Times in 9,894 Posts
Images: 77
                     
Click here to find out how greenkouki became a supporter
You can't truly love the breed and be a byb, that is a contradiction. Regardless of how much they love their animals as pets, bybs do not care about the future of the particular animals they produce nor the future of the breed as a whole. If they really did care they would take the extra time and commitment to propperly evaluate the dogs phsyical, mental, and genetic characteristics and mate breeding animals to eachother accordingly. The whole point of breeding animals is to secure the future of the breed by breeding out existing faults and protecting against the emergence of a new fault. Bybs compound existing problems in the breed gene pool, therefore corrupting the breed. Bybs are the ONLY reason there are purebred dogs in animal shelters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLS View Post
poncho,
I was just going to ask what is THE definition of a BYB . As it seems I have been classed as one, even though no one here knows very much about my history in the breed or my dogs. So alpha's, what is your definition.
Back yard breeder is the direct meaning. Most use it to more loosely describe a breeder lacking propper ethics in ones breeding program, ie: a large volume breeder.

Last edited by greenkouki; 10-29-2007 at 09:20 PM.
greenkouki is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to greenkouki For This Useful Post:
Brandy&Melanie (04-21-2012), dax0402 (03-07-2011)
post #8 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:16 PM
jdd
Alpha
 
jdd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,149
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Dogs Name: Guilty, Hemi, Paisley,Sofia, Kobe, Maxwell, Piper
Titles: Ch, Ch, Ch
Dogs Age: 5 yrs, 2 yrs, 10 mon., 12 weeks, 12 yrs, who knows, 1 yr
Gallery Pics: 11
Visit jdd's Gallery
Thanks: 959
Thanked 10,727 Times in 2,802 Posts
Images: 11
                     
And there are SOOOO many pets being bred already. Lots can't ever find homes. Just look at puppyfind and those sites, lots of older puppies who have no where to go.
jdd is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jdd For This Useful Post:
Brandy&Melanie (04-21-2012), dax0402 (03-07-2011)
post #9 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit poncho's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts
 
I am going to have to disagree. I think if a person was to go to shows, studied what is out there, they would become educated and could determine what is a good mover. My Morgan trainer's wife, never showed a horse, in fact she never even rode... but she could pick out a good mover.

and to DLS, it appears on this forum, a back yard breeder is anyone who breeds dogs and is not in the ring. I politely disagree. I think that there can be a good backyard breeder. One who is not doing it for the money but to put forth a good quality dog that is healthy, and with even temperment.

Poncho
poncho is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to poncho For This Useful Post:
CandaceSmith (08-02-2011), DobeLuv4Ever (07-07-2010), Fireant (09-18-2013), Ziggy (07-07-2010)
post #10 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit poncho's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
You can't truly love the breed and be a byb, that is a contradiction. Regardless of how much they love their animals as pets, bybs do not care about the future of the particular animals they produce nor the future of the breed as a whole. If they really did care they would take the extra time and commitment to propperly evaluate the dogs phsyical, mental, and genetic characteristics and mate breeding animals to eachother accordingly. The whole point of breeding animals is to secure the future of the breed by breeding out existing faults and protecting against the emergence of a new fault. Bybs compound existing problems in the breed gene pool, therefore corrupting the breed. Bybs are the ONLY reason there are purebred dogs in animal shelters.

If a breeder was to do all the required health testing and by observation and education was able to pick out prospects to breed to that would be healthy for the breed how could this be compounding existing problems? What about health testing and trying to produce a dog with exceptional logevity? Great hips, healthy heart, clean lines, non carriers?
Poncho
poncho is offline  
post #11 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:27 PM
Alpha
 
Julie W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,715
Location: Oregon
Dogs Name: Cher & Ethan
Titles: WAC, TT, CGC, AD
Dogs Age: 11/02/05 & 04/20/11
Gallery Pics: 17
Visit Julie W's Gallery
Thanks: 2,402
Thanked 10,807 Times in 2,389 Posts
Images: 17
                     
Send a message via AIM to Julie W
Quote:
I think that there can be a good backyard breeder. One who is not doing it for the money but to put forth a good quality dog that is healthy, and with even temperment.
And how in the world do you evaluate that in your own backyard without being out there comparing to quality individuals? I personally wouldn't take the word of somebody without experience of not only their own dogs competing, but knowing the dogs in their pedigrees well. Also, you will simply not be able to secure any breedings to real quality males as they won't let them be bred to an unproven bitch with a byb.

Julie W is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Julie W For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (03-07-2011), Sunrisesya (03-06-2011)
post #12 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:29 PM
Alpha
 
Julie W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,715
Location: Oregon
Dogs Name: Cher & Ethan
Titles: WAC, TT, CGC, AD
Dogs Age: 11/02/05 & 04/20/11
Gallery Pics: 17
Visit Julie W's Gallery
Thanks: 2,402
Thanked 10,807 Times in 2,389 Posts
Images: 17
                     
Send a message via AIM to Julie W
Quote:
If a breeder was to do all the required health testing and by observation and education was able to pick out prospects to breed to that would be healthy for the breed how could this be compounding existing problems? What about health testing and trying to produce a dog with exceptional logevity? Great hips, healthy heart, clean lines, non carriers?
Simple, with no experience competing you won't be ABLE to tell if a dog is really worthy or not. It's not as simple as you would think or everyone out there would have multi BIS dogs. And you also won't have the knowledge of the dogs in their pedigrees, and again, you won't be able to breed to really nice dogs as nobody would do a breeding with a byb.

Julie W is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Julie W For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (03-07-2011)
post #13 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:31 PM
Alpha
 
dobeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 545
Location: Ontario
Dogs Name: Hara
Titles: Cookie monster/Stick chewer extraordinaire
Dogs Age: 2 years
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit dobeguy's Gallery
Thanks: 648
Thanked 426 Times in 190 Posts
Images: 22
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by poncho View Post
I am going to have to disagree. I think if a person was to go to shows, studied what is out there, they would become educated and could determine what is a good mover. My Morgan trainer's wife, never showed a horse, in fact she never even rode... but she could pick out a good mover.

and to DLS, it appears on this forum, a back yard breeder is anyone who breeds dogs and is not in the ring. I politely disagree. I think that there can be a good backyard breeder. One who is not doing it for the money but to put forth a good quality dog that is healthy, and with even temperment.

Poncho

This is taken from AmarisDobes website. A well known BYB/Puppymill.

"It is our opinion that Conformation titles and Obedience titles are somewhat outdated tools that are sometimes used by breeders to try to help them select which animals might produce well when bred to another. In the case of working and obedience titles, which are basically and quite simply just complex pattern training exercises, a marginal candidate can, if trained by and exceptional trainer - exceed all expectations. Illustrating not it's excellent genetic traits, but rather it's trainer's exceptional ability. The reverse is also true, an incredible genetic specimen, which if broken down by a poor trainer would probably be weeded out of a breeding program, by these same inaccurate measuring tools. If you think about it, it's quite obvious, it's just common sense. In most cases these events are demonstrating the trainers ability more than the actual genetic ability of the dog to pass on any fantastic trait.

At their best they are, in our opinion, simply inaccurate and coarse indicators of possible correct genetics. The real proof is in the actual breeding. The resulting progeny are the only clear accurate measure of the parents abilities to produce excellent quality pups, not some artificial obstacle course that the parents have been repeatedly trained to excel at. I have seen many times, Schutzhund 3 FH bred to Schutzhund 3 FH and the resulting litter had not even one pup that was note worthy. If a dog has titles or not, does not matter to me. It's whether or not that dog produces progeny with exceptional qualities consistently that really matters. We define our success by the satisfaction of our clients. We do not train for titles, trophies or awards. In the real world these items mean absolutely nothing. A Trophy will never save your life"


Crap like this is used by greeders to justify the fact they don't work to put titles on thier dogs. Is it a coincidence that breeders who don't show their dogs are the ones that are overbreeding? Why do you want to breed Dobermans. How will you know your Doberman is worthy enough to be bred, if it isn't shown?

Breeders like Amaris say "My dog is a superior working dog." Well if that's the case than how come your dog doesn't have any working titles? My dog is beautiful and conforms to the breed standard. Oh yeah than why don't you show it? Because these people know how expensive it is to show their dogs and just want to make a quick buck. They know their dogs aren't worthy enough to be bred, but they don't care.

If you think BYB's are good, than please visit your local pound and come back to me. Better yet watch a few dogs being put down and come back to me.

""Life itself is only a vision. A dream. Nothing exists, save an empty space and you. And you are but a thought."
dobeguy is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dobeguy For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (03-07-2011), Sunrisesya (03-06-2011)
post #14 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:32 PM
Super Moderator
 
greenkouki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,920
Location: SC

Gallery Pics: 77
Visit greenkouki's Gallery
Thanks: 19,774
Thanked 30,679 Times in 9,894 Posts
Images: 77
                     
Click here to find out how greenkouki became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by poncho View Post
If a breeder was to do all the required health testing and by observation and education was able to pick out prospects to breed to that would be healthy for the breed how could this be compounding existing problems? What about health testing and trying to produce a dog with exceptional logevity? Great hips, healthy heart, clean lines, non carriers?
Poncho
A breeder needs an ouside source to evaluate one's breeding stock, just using ones own opinion is selfish.
greenkouki is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to greenkouki For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (03-07-2011), Jhagman (04-28-2012), michael327 (07-07-2010)
post #15 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:32 PM
Sea Hag
 
Murreydobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,933

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Murreydobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,083
Thanked 34,683 Times in 7,941 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie W View Post
Also, you will simply not be able to secure any breedings to real quality males as they won't let them be bred to an unproven bitch with a byb.
Absolutely. Not proving your dogs in any way really narrows the field as far as what stud dogs would ever be made available to you. It's nothing but a downward spiral.



Murreydobe is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Murreydobe For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (03-07-2011)
post #16 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:43 PM
jdd
Alpha
 
jdd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,149
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Dogs Name: Guilty, Hemi, Paisley,Sofia, Kobe, Maxwell, Piper
Titles: Ch, Ch, Ch
Dogs Age: 5 yrs, 2 yrs, 10 mon., 12 weeks, 12 yrs, who knows, 1 yr
Gallery Pics: 11
Visit jdd's Gallery
Thanks: 959
Thanked 10,727 Times in 2,802 Posts
Images: 11
                     
Would you sell all of your puppies on limited registration or let who ever buys them also breed. How could you know that they would breed "Properly". Its hard finding GOOD homes. How would people know you have puppies. Newspapers and such is not a good source to sell puppies. No one would know about them and you'd be stuck with a whole litter. Advertise in the wrong place and you get the wrong kind of homes. It takes YEARS to get a name good enough that people are lined up to buy your puppies. Finding homes would be scarey I think.
jdd is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to jdd For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (03-07-2011)
post #17 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:46 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit poncho's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts
 
Crap like this is used by greeders to justify the fact they don't work to put titles on thier dogs. Is it a coincidence that breeders who don't show their dogs are the ones that are overbreeding? Why do you want to breed Dobermans. How will you know your Doberman is worthy enough to be bred, if it isn't shown?

If I ever did breed, it would certainly not be right now, or for along time. If my doberman was health tested and free from the genetic diseases that corrupt the breed, and by the guidelines of the AKC had correct conformation this would make a dog worthy. There are many beautiful Dobermans in the picture gallery on this website that are not titled and a worthy dogs. There are some that probably could be titled if they money and politics where put up.

Breeders like Amaris say "My dog is a superior working dog." Well if that's the case than how come your dog doesn't have any working titles? My dog is beautiful and conforms to the breed standard. Oh yeah than why don't you show it? Because these people know how expensive it is to show their dogs and just want to make a quick buck. They know their dogs aren't worthy enough to be bred, but they don't care.

Amaris does not appear to be a BYB, they are a business. When I say BYB a simply meant someone who is not actively showing the dog. Anyone who makes a business out of breeding dogs should be doing more than breeding, I agree.

If you think BYB's are good, than please visit your local pound and come back to me. Better yet watch a few dogs being put down and come back to me.[/QUOTE]
I actually volunteer at a shelter, and they dogs that are there did not come from breeders that did any health testing.
Poncho
poncho is offline  
post #18 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit poncho's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdd View Post
Would you sell all of your puppies on limited registration or let who ever buys them also breed. How could you know that they would breed "Properly". Its hard finding GOOD homes. How would people know you have puppies. Newspapers and such is not a good source to sell puppies. No one would know about them and you'd be stuck with a whole litter. Advertise in the wrong place and you get the wrong kind of homes. It takes YEARS to get a name good enough that people are lined up to buy your puppies. Finding homes would be scarey I think.
Very good point. Just as I would want to sell my pups on a limited registration, how can I expect someone who is reputable sell to me.
Poncho
poncho is offline  
post #19 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 10:03 PM
Alpha
 
dobeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 545
Location: Ontario
Dogs Name: Hara
Titles: Cookie monster/Stick chewer extraordinaire
Dogs Age: 2 years
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit dobeguy's Gallery
Thanks: 648
Thanked 426 Times in 190 Posts
Images: 22
                     
Heres another point I want to add before I start my homework.

When a Breeder shows their dog, this tells me they truly love their breed and want to mate only the dogs that are a true example of what the breed should be. Do you realize the amount of heartache, money, and time it takes to train and show a dog. Only a dog enthusiast and reputable breeder will go through this process. BYB's don't show because they don't want to spend money on this process. How many exceptional dogs have come from BYB's? Maybe a few by luck, but for the most part not many.

Just look at all the breeders that post on this site. How much they love their dogs. Treat them as members of ones family. Spend day and day night agonizing over their dogs. Make sure their dogs find happy, loving forever homes. Than look at people like Amaris and other BYB's and tell me they care about their dog's like responsable breeders do.

You asked whether their can be a good BYB, my answer is no. At the end of the day if your a breeder and you don't work at putting titles on your dog, than you are pissing all over the breed.

""Life itself is only a vision. A dream. Nothing exists, save an empty space and you. And you are but a thought."
dobeguy is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to dobeguy For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (03-07-2011)
post #20 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 10:04 PM
Owned by Dobes since 1975
 
Darkevs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 30,675
Location: BC, Canada!
Dogs Name: Charlie & Naughty Dottie!
Titles: BDIH & BND
Dogs Age: 7 3/4 & 3
Gallery Pics: 46
Visit Darkevs's Gallery
Thanks: 86,447
Thanked 50,157 Times in 19,284 Posts
Images: 46
                     
Very Interesting thread you started poncho.

Call them BYB's, Puppy Miller's or whatever. But if some or all of these apply to the breeder you are considering getting a pup from, well please reconsider.



-Mass produces
-Does not know the dogs behind their pedigrees
-Does not have years of experience and a good knowledge of the breed structure, movement etc.
-does not know what genetic qualities are and cannot tell if a STud is prepotent for passing on his attributes.
- does not care about the future of the pups they produce or the future of the breed as a whole
-does not sell pups on limited registration {non-breeding} or lets anyone who buys them breed them
-Does not health test or understand health tests.
-Are kennel blind
-don't understand the information out there, can't understand how it applies to them, their dogs, the breed, the puppy owners and future generations of Dobermans.
- Don't take back dogs they bred for ANY reason

Last edited by Darkevs; 10-31-2007 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Removed some stuff and added some more.
Darkevs is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Darkevs For This Useful Post:
Brandy&Melanie (06-07-2012), dax0402 (03-07-2011)
post #21 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 10:11 PM
Alpha
 
Dobesanddragons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,942
Location: Room of Requirement
Titles: CD RN WAC CGC

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobesanddragons's Gallery
Thanks: 1,474
Thanked 3,491 Times in 1,453 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by poncho View Post
I am going to have to disagree. I think if a person was to go to shows, studied what is out there, they would become educated and could determine what is a good mover.
and to DLS, it appears on this forum, a back yard breeder is anyone who breeds dogs and is not in the ring. I politely disagree. I think that there can be a good backyard breeder. One who is not doing it for the money but to put forth a good quality dog that is healthy, and with even temperment.

Poncho
You have received very good advice and lots to think about if you will think about it. There are not good back yard breeders, they are either back yard breeders or they are not. If they were not they would be a responsible/reputable breeder.

Horses are not the same as dogs on many levels, so you can stop comparing apples to oranges.

First of all, you say go to shows and study what is out there. Why not enter those shows? If your dog is such a good quality why not be competitive? Why not breed the best? Why not learn what is out there?

Why settle for less when Dobermans are in shelters everywhere from BYB's? The pet overpopulation is out of control, and if you took a minute to study why - you would see - it is mainly the once or twice backyard breeders. It is a serious problem and I have no doubt American BYB's cannot continue producing such large amounts of animals so thoughtlessly, shelters and rescues will not be able to keep up. Legislation will be put into place for all breeders from the mistakes and careless placements and breedings of BYB's and puppy mills, and almost has been already as we saw in California.

You can go to shows, you can study the breed, but some people just never get it. It is more than just years; some people own Dobermans for years but still remain clueless. They don't take the time to understand the information out there; they can't understand how it applies to them, their dogs, the breed, the puppy owners, and the future generations of Dobermans. There is a bigger picture.

If you health test you need to know how to understand those health tests, evaluate both sides, that means know the pedigrees, know the dogs in those pedigrees, etc. What is the longevity behind those dogs? Did the sire of one die of cardio at 3, how many of that sire’s offspring did too? Pedigree knowledge is vital. There is a lot that must be taken into consideration.

It is much more than just randomly health testing two dogs you think might have a good temperament and breeding them. What you might think is an even temperament for a Doberman, many might think is not. That is why there is the Doberman STANDARD, and working titles and temperament tests, to help properly evaluate a proper Doberman temperament. Good work ethic, good drive, good nerve, confidence, energetic, fearless, loyalty, these things matter.

Do you know what kennel blindness is? It means you don't see the faults since they are your own dogs. You become biased. That is why I enjoy showing and titling in the various venues so much; in the conformation ring it gives somewhat of an objective measure from several judges against several Dobermans of high quality. It is more than a beauty contest too, form follows function in the Doberman breed and the Doberman standard reflects a well put together sound working dog.

Also, working titles like SchH which involved obedience, tracking, and protection also shows a somewhat objective measure from the scoring and titles. Temperament testing shows that someone besides just you saw some stableness in that dog. Obedience titles show the dog can work and follow commands; Dobermans are working dogs and are a correct temperament is obedient.

No, all of these venues aren’t perfect, but they do help prove a reason for that dog to be bred, and DO say something about the dogs inherit temperament and trainability, work ethic, structure, etc. and that that dog is contributing to the breed in a good way. Not just that someone thought the dog was pretty, or the vet said it was healthy, or it was “registered”, etc. etc.


It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities ~JK Rowling
Life's challenges are not suppose to paralyze you, they are suppose to help you discover who you are ~Bernice Reagon

Happy to share my life with Dobermans

Last edited by Dobesanddragons; 10-29-2007 at 10:28 PM.
Dobesanddragons is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dobesanddragons For This Useful Post:
Flipcandy (09-04-2013), Sunrisesya (03-06-2011)
post #22 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 10:11 PM
Alpha
 
dobeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 545
Location: Ontario
Dogs Name: Hara
Titles: Cookie monster/Stick chewer extraordinaire
Dogs Age: 2 years
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit dobeguy's Gallery
Thanks: 648
Thanked 426 Times in 190 Posts
Images: 22
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by poncho View Post
Crap like this is used by greeders to justify the fact they don't work to put titles on thier dogs. Is it a coincidence that breeders who don't show their dogs are the ones that are overbreeding? Why do you want to breed Dobermans. How will you know your Doberman is worthy enough to be bred, if it isn't shown?

If I ever did breed, it would certainly not be right now, or for along time. If my doberman was health tested and free from the genetic diseases that corrupt the breed, and by the guidelines of the AKC had correct conformation this would make a dog worthy. There are many beautiful Dobermans in the picture gallery on this website that are not titled and a worthy dogs. There are some that probably could be titled if they money and politics where put up.

Breeders like Amaris say "My dog is a superior working dog." Well if that's the case than how come your dog doesn't have any working titles? My dog is beautiful and conforms to the breed standard. Oh yeah than why don't you show it? Because these people know how expensive it is to show their dogs and just want to make a quick buck. They know their dogs aren't worthy enough to be bred, but they don't care.

Amaris does not appear to be a BYB, they are a business. When I say BYB a simply meant someone who is not actively showing the dog. Anyone who makes a business out of breeding dogs should be doing more than breeding, I agree.

If you think BYB's are good, than please visit your local pound and come back to me. Better yet watch a few dogs being put down and come back to me.
I actually volunteer at a shelter, and they dogs that are there did not come from breeders that did any health testing.
Poncho[/QUOTE]

That makes no sense. When BYB's are selling their dogs, is that not a buisness? Can they treat their dogs any damn way they please and be exempt from criticism because their a buisness?

Amaris does not show their dogs, that makes them a BYB by your definition. Just look at the thread in this forum about Amaris. If you would like to learn about them.

""Life itself is only a vision. A dream. Nothing exists, save an empty space and you. And you are but a thought."
dobeguy is offline  
post #23 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 10:12 PM
jdd
Alpha
 
jdd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,149
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Dogs Name: Guilty, Hemi, Paisley,Sofia, Kobe, Maxwell, Piper
Titles: Ch, Ch, Ch
Dogs Age: 5 yrs, 2 yrs, 10 mon., 12 weeks, 12 yrs, who knows, 1 yr
Gallery Pics: 11
Visit jdd's Gallery
Thanks: 959
Thanked 10,727 Times in 2,802 Posts
Images: 11
                     
DLS, you listed selling pups on limited registration makes you a backyard breeder, maybe you left out the word "doesn't" the other makes no sense.

Poncho, the way you can expect a reputable breeder to sell you a dog, is to agree to the limited registration on your new puppy, or buy a show puppy and show it in something. No reputable breeder will sell a puppy JUST to be used for breeding down the road.
Not saying you wouldn't be a wonderful home for a Doberman or putting you down or anything, I'm just answering the question on how you could get a reputable breeder to sell you a puppy. If its just wanted as a pet, it would be limited.
jdd is offline  
post #24 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 10:18 PM
jdd
Alpha
 
jdd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,149
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Dogs Name: Guilty, Hemi, Paisley,Sofia, Kobe, Maxwell, Piper
Titles: Ch, Ch, Ch
Dogs Age: 5 yrs, 2 yrs, 10 mon., 12 weeks, 12 yrs, who knows, 1 yr
Gallery Pics: 11
Visit jdd's Gallery
Thanks: 959
Thanked 10,727 Times in 2,802 Posts
Images: 11
                     
I don't think I'd call places like Amaris, Kimbertall, Hoytt, Legard, Harradens Dobie Den etc...... backyard breeders. I think a byb is someone who just has a dobe or two or three, breeds to another dog just because he is a registered Doberman without knowing any of the background (or even if they do) and just breeding to breed and usually know NOTHING about the breed. I'd call the "kennels" mentioned above, Commercial Puppy Farms. It is their way of making a living. They DO make money because they rarely health test, rarely compete in any events, breed to their own males no matter if that male goes with that particular female. They just have a kennel full of dogs and they make puppies and they sell them for very large amounts with nothing to back them up.
jdd is offline  
post #25 of 119 (permalink) Old 10-29-2007, 10:19 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit poncho's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeguy View Post
Heres another point I want to add before I start my homework.

When a Breeder shows their dog, this tells me they truly love their breed and want to mate only the dogs that are a true example of what the breed should be. Do you realize the amount of heartache, money, and time it takes to train and show a dog. Only a dog enthusiast and reputable breeder will go through this process. BYB's don't show because they don't want to spend money on this process. How many exceptional dogs have come from BYB's? Maybe a few by luck, but for the most part not many.

Just look at all the breeders that post on this site. How much they love their dogs. Treat them as members of ones family. Spend day and day night agonizing over their dogs. Make sure their dogs find happy, loving forever homes. Than look at people like Amaris and other BYB's and tell me they care about their dog's like responsable breeders do.

You asked whether their can be a good BYB, my answer is no. At the end of the day if your a breeder and you don't work at putting titles on your dog, than you are pissing all over the breed.
Do you realize the money, time and heartache it takes to get an ROM on a horse? Your preachin to the choir! I do not want to get into finances, but I am financially secure enough to put the dollars into getting a dog finished. Personally, I would hire a handler. I just dont want to. No denying the dogs that are titled are nice, I just dont want to support a forum that takes who you are over whar you have. I remember there was a short time I was into hunter/jumping with Tbreds. Either you jump the fence, or you know it down!! Doesn't matter who you are, or how well you know the judge.
Poncho
poncho is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to poncho For This Useful Post:
Ziggy (07-07-2010)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome