A Negative Experience with Adlercrest - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #26 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 10:20 AM
Alpha
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,533
Location: San Diego
Dogs Name: Macy
Titles: 12 AKC pts
Dogs Age: 3 yrs.
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobies 71's Gallery
Thanks: 2,359
Thanked 2,248 Times in 890 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murreydobe View Post
I turned down one person for a show puppy once. Explained to her nicely that she wasn't making much of an effort to show the bitch she already had, who was a nice girl. So I really didn't have a lot of confidence she'd do right by the male show prospect she wanted to buy from me. I told her I knew she was a good home, so I'd be glad to place a pet quality puppy with her then, or talk to her at a later date about a show puppy AFTER she finished the bitch she had.

WELL! You would have thought I accused her of being a child molester or something! Bad attitude, ugly scene. I sure wouldn't make that mistake of being honest about why I refused someone again. A lot of people just don't handle rejection well..so there's always two sides to the story of why breeders might just drop someone without a word.
Ditto to this!

I had someone really get into a major arguement with me regarding being turned down on a puppy. They stated that I could not turn them down. I had no choice but to sell them a puppy. They went into equal opportunity law and fair housing laws to prove their point. They said they were getting a lawyer to force me. They had the cash and I had to sell them a puppy irregardless to my choice. Well nothing came of it except hot steam.

I agree with Murrydobe. Most of the turned down folks do not take kindly to the "learning experience" with an open mind. Then there is the other piece of this issue. No one wants to teach the bad willed buyer, who wants the dog outside only, etc etc what not to say.

We are guardians to the breed. We also have to take back puppies of whom we made a mistake on. I took back a puppy that was never placeable. She lived out her life with me. I did not need another dog then. I already had 4. But she was mine and it was me that allowed her to that poor home.
Dobies 71 is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dobies 71 For This Useful Post:
Kalecho (10-09-2011), robinb (10-09-2011), RottenVonSpotten (10-09-2011), Tuckersmom (10-09-2011)
Advertisement
 
post #27 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 10:34 AM
Alpha
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,533
Location: San Diego
Dogs Name: Macy
Titles: 12 AKC pts
Dogs Age: 3 yrs.
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobies 71's Gallery
Thanks: 2,359
Thanked 2,248 Times in 890 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardstdob View Post
Wow - That is quite a statement to make to an experienced breeder.
First - not all bitches take AI. Trust me - Valkyrie missed the first time, and I have sent semen to bitches who missed with Havok. Who is a proven stud.

Second - not all bitch owners are happy about putting the bitch through the surgery.

Third - You have to have the right vet to do a surgical implant. Dobermans can be tougher to get to take. I am lucky to have a reproductive specialist that I took Valkyrie to that happens to be a Doberman breeder. Not everyone is that lucky

If you are thinking vaginal - well I know a LOT of bitches who have missed that way and I would struggle to come up with a list of Doberman breedings that have been successful.

I happen to know who she is breeding to and it is a very nice dog. If she wants to go to that line why not give herself the best chance of success. Especially after waiting a year for this. She has the age of the bitch and dog to consider, timing of puppies etc.

I just find your reply very simplistic.

And - I do not know the OP, and am not getting a puppy from her etc. I just know what can go into breeding good dogs.


Y
Thank you Sue. This is exactually why I am getting to Chicago by whatever means I have to use.

I do not want to risk the surgery to place this semen. I've seen bitchs get so scarred they are now infertile. So they never even got a puppy and never will as a result. This was done by a repo vet.

I want a live breeding.

There really is no school of speciality for a repo vet unlike dennistry etc. They pick it up by experience.

So I am doing this breeding based on what other bitches from this pedigree have produced with him. He is a proven stud dog with the health status equal or even better than my bitch.

I have a major dog here locally that lives within 10 miles of me. He has produced dogs in the top 5 conformationally and been in that as well. But he is not for me, or my bitch. It is not about breeding to the handly local dog. It is about achieving though your hopes and knowledge what you can get for the best.

I am secretly hoping for a red dog. I know I am nuts but I just am hoping. I am also going to keep a bitch or two from this litter, if it goes as I hope.

I am breeding this litter for me. And, I hope that those who get puppies will appreciate what I have done and how they too will benefit.

Last edited by Dobies 71; 10-09-2011 at 10:37 AM.
Dobies 71 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dobies 71 For This Useful Post:
Kalecho (10-09-2011), robinb (10-09-2011)
post #28 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 11:03 AM
Holier Than Now
 
RedFawnRising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 22,475
Dogs Name: Whisper; George; Mina, Nashua, Arcus
Titles: George-Working Service Dog
Dogs Age: 9 yr, 5 yr, 4 yr, 2 yr, 1.5 yr
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit RedFawnRising's Gallery
Thanks: 72,151
Thanked 77,341 Times in 18,231 Posts
Images: 3
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardstdob View Post
I am sorry if you had a bad experience with Adlercrest
However, I must say it is completely different than my experiences with them.

My dog Riker was from them and I know they are very selective in who they place dogs with. I can tell you they did extensive reference checks on me before agreeing to send me a dog. Once I was approved as a dog owner, Linda was always there.

Riker had an eye issue as a young dog and there was a chance it was cancerous. I called just to tell her about it and she offered to buy him back then and there. I was not looking for anything other than to let her know. It turned out to be benign and treatable.

Riker was everything he was promoted to be.

I don't know, it has been a long time since I had Riker, but just based on my first hand experience with them, I suspect there is two sides to this story.

Sue L
I'm betting, too, one of the components is that very savvy experienced Doberman people will get treated differently than a member of the general public, Sue.

As it should be, really, but also something that might seem elusive to understand, and be a bit disconcerting to your average (or even above average) pet puppy buyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q734 View Post
Op sorry you were snubbed if it went as you say it did.

Could it be they felt there was nothing major flawed about that girl? Was it an outright nervous reaction from the dog? I personally wouldn't turn down a nice dog for missing hair on the tail from the right people, bloodlines.

Perhaps they felt you were fortunate for considering you and were annoyed when you wouldn't take what they offered.(?)
?
No offense meant.

I had a friend tell me recently, kindly & honestly, that certain characteristics I am vocal wanting might put off someone considering me as an owner....from this list anyway.

I honestly hadn't thought I was being difficult in my "little list": e.g. dry, nothing crazy, w/longevity in background....from a nice person....but it made me conscious of how I might come off... impossible to please.

What I'm saying is that with breeders who are so busy and with SO MANY inquiries perhaps patience is short if you aren't on in a regular friend relationship w/them?

In any case it is a learning experience and kudos for you having the stones to share it, good or bad.
That part I bolded, that right there.

That's my radar on the situation, and I've absolutely been privy to such conversations among various breeders of various breeds.

You know, maybe Adlercrest checked this poster out (AFTER agreeing to sell them a puppy?) and found out they pulled the wings off butterflies in second grade, plus ate library paste in the third, but really, the common sense interpretation is much more like what you're saying, Q.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinb View Post
For whatever reason, the OP wasnít going to be considered for a future litter from this breeder. Furthermore, I would hope that most would agree to the importance of a breeder and puppy buyer having a good relationship for the life of the dog. If either party feels for whatever reason that this might prove difficult over the long haul --- then itís certainly far better for all involved, and especially for the puppy, to walk away before, bringing the puppy home or selling a puppy, and then having communication problems. And that could be something as simple as a gut feeling on the part of either party.

The one thing Iíve learned over the years, is no two breeders handle their prospective lists or buyers equally nor should they. In addition, no two litters (unless they happen to be a repeat breeding) would be the same in respect to the homes and experience levels they would be most suited for, as well as even puppies within the same litter will differ and all need to be matched to the buyer. Repeat buyers who have proved to be great homes are almost always put to the top of the list as well as folks who have a proven and good track record with their previous dogs.

I never suggested that the OP didn't have the right to share their experience. It's just not something I would have done. So are we now going to rise the bar and ask breeders to come on here and explain why someone wasn't going to be considered for a puppy? Yes, transparency is awesome and both parties (breeder and puppy buyer) should share all information regarding the puppy--both the good and bad-- and the prospective home for the puppy as well.
You may not have outright said the OP didn't have the right to share their experience, but you certainly implied they'd be on some sort of "in disfavor" list with reputable breeders by doing so.

I would imagine that was very disconcerting to the OP.

They sound like they sincerely are searching to buy a nice puppy who fits their goals, from a reputable breeder. I'd love to see this forum support THAT, v. all the impulse-buying BYB supporters we so often get flooded with, here.

The other big thing I took away from reading all this is that, OP can correct me if I misunderstood, Adlercrest apparently never informed them they were no longer in consideration for a puppy from them.

I absolutely do understand not always disclosing why someone is turned down--for all the reasons that have been previously posted, but to not even do the courtesy of saying to someone you'd previously approved on your list, "I encourage you to continue searching elsewhere for a puppy"?




My heart has joined the thousand, for my friend stopped running today~Richard Adams


"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
―Cyril Connolly
RedFawnRising is offline  
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to RedFawnRising For This Useful Post:
honda123 (10-11-2011), MeadowCat (10-10-2011), melbrod (10-13-2011), Navistardobe (10-09-2011), Q734 (10-09-2011), RottenVonSpotten (10-09-2011), TeachersPet (10-09-2011), TNTransplant (10-10-2011), Zucker (10-11-2011)
Advertisement
 
post #29 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 11:40 AM
Alpha
 
TeachersPet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 640
Location: Canada
Dogs Name: Reno
Dogs Age: 3 years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit TeachersPet's Gallery
Thanks: 284
Thanked 1,645 Times in 438 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinb View Post
Iím not a breeder and donít have any dogs from Adlercrest, however, I donít really think you are helping yourself with other respectable breeders---- as there really isnít any shortage of people wanting dogs from the good breeders. And those breeders want a positive ongoing relationship with their puppy buyers for the life of the dog.
I'm curious where this person would go to get a "good" puppy from then if they're going to have a hard time buying from a respectable breeder then? I don't think the OP is wrong in their assessment of why many turn to byb to get their dog's. If choices are reputable breeders, byb and shelters/rescues and they cannot obtain one from a reputable source, what alternatives are there? Not everyone is comfortable getting an adult dog that may or may not have some history to deal with.

While I understand that breeders are breeding primarily for themselves, and do understand that they have the right to sell to whomever they choose to or not...what choice does that leave the average person looking for a healthy well bred dog who might not be in the inner circle so to speak?
TeachersPet is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to TeachersPet For This Useful Post:
LuvMyDobes (10-10-2011), MeadowCat (10-10-2011), mmctaq (10-09-2011), RedFawnRising (10-09-2011), RottenVonSpotten (10-09-2011), TNTransplant (10-10-2011)
post #30 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
Lil Pup
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 11
Location: Dana Point
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Geist's Gallery
Thanks: 5
Thanked 26 Times in 8 Posts
   
"But my guess here would have been that you took it upon yourself to see this returned puppy and they thought that you never had any intention but came just to be a lookey loo. That would have been my impression.

Keep looking for your puppy. You will find one. The approach is everything. And, some people learn the approach. That is when experience tells the breeder by hunch back off. I'm with Pat on this one. You have to go with a hunch. There is nothing I want more than to see happy appreciative puppy owner/buyers who are just as excited and thrilled as I with their puppy."

You know you're probably right, that's most likely what they thought it was and probably felt I was wasting their time. Bad communication on both parts in that situation I supposed, really its all about communication! It's just crummy they didn't let me know they felt that way so I had a chance to explain and talk it over with them in a nice back and forth instead of well you're a waste of time good luck manner.

That's exactly why I declined I knew I wouldn't be 100% happy with the girl because of the situation so I wanted to wait for new pup to come along, I didn't think it was fair to the dog.
Geist is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Geist For This Useful Post:
Dobies 71 (10-10-2011), RedFawnRising (10-09-2011), RottenVonSpotten (10-09-2011)
post #31 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 12:25 PM
Alpha
 
robinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,665
Location: Washington State
Dogs Name: Emerald's Excabibur ex Tijac (Rex) and Wittrock's Jazzzzzy Tara (Tara)
Titles: CGC
Dogs Age: 04/12/05 and 11/09/08
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit robinb's Gallery
Thanks: 1,895
Thanked 1,639 Times in 588 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
I'm betting, too, one of the components is that very savvy experienced Doberman people will get treated differently than a member of the general public, Sue.

As it should be, really, but also something that might seem elusive to understand, and be a bit disconcerting to your average (or even above average) pet puppy buyer.



That part I bolded, that right there.

That's my radar on the situation, and I've absolutely been privy to such conversations among various breeders of various breeds.

You know, maybe Adlercrest checked this poster out (AFTER agreeing to sell them a puppy?) and found out they pulled the wings off butterflies in second grade, plus ate library paste in the third, but really, the common sense interpretation is much more like what you're saying, Q.



You may not have outright said the OP didn't have the right to share their experience, but you certainly implied they'd be on some sort of "in disfavor" list with reputable breeders by doing so.

I would imagine that was very disconcerting to the OP.

They sound like they sincerely are searching to buy a nice puppy who fits their goals, from a reputable breeder. I'd love to see this forum support THAT, v. all the impulse-buying BYB supporters we so often get flooded with, here.

The other big thing I took away from reading all this is that, OP can correct me if I misunderstood, Adlercrest apparently never informed them they were no longer in consideration for a puppy from them.

I absolutely do understand not always disclosing why someone is turned down--for all the reasons that have been previously posted, but to not even do the courtesy of saying to someone you'd previously approved on your list, "I encourage you to continue searching elsewhere for a puppy"?
IMO, the thread title was both unfair and misleading to the breeder as well as some of the language in the first post., ďflakedĒ in particular stands out to me! Breeders do have lives too--- unless of course one of their dogs is in trouble and needs immediate help or a buyer needs immediate help with a dog, which wasnĎt the case here. How other folks (particularly breeders) will interpret the OPís own words is up to them as it should be.

Like I stated in a previous post, every breeder has a different way of deciding who will be getting a puppy. This certainly wouldnít be the first time a puppy buyer was disappointed for not getting considered for a particular puppy or litter, or even any puppy from a breeder. And misunderstandings regarding intent of both the buyer and breeder do happen, I just donít think this rises to the level of the thread title and some of the language in the first post. My years have taught me that there are usually two sides to most of these situations. Perhaps the breeder should have--could have worded it differently, but again I donít think that rises to the level of the thread title.

When Sue purchased Riker, she certainly didnít have the name in the breed that she rightfully has today. If Iím not mistaken her numerous AKC Champions and ROM dogs came after Riker. I donít think one can fairly compare Sue making a call to a breeder today to when she made the call to purchase Riker. Certainly, she had put some very worthy working and performance titles on dogs back then--- but not the numerous marquee AKC Champions and ROM titles, both as a breeder and owner.

robinb is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to robinb For This Useful Post:
Dobies 71 (10-09-2011), elly (10-09-2011), Kalecho (10-09-2011), punkischic (10-09-2011), stardstdob (10-09-2011)
post #32 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Alpha
 
robinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,665
Location: Washington State
Dogs Name: Emerald's Excabibur ex Tijac (Rex) and Wittrock's Jazzzzzy Tara (Tara)
Titles: CGC
Dogs Age: 04/12/05 and 11/09/08
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit robinb's Gallery
Thanks: 1,895
Thanked 1,639 Times in 588 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeachersPet View Post
I'm curious where this person would go to get a "good" puppy from then if they're going to have a hard time buying from a respectable breeder then? I don't think the OP is wrong in their assessment of why many turn to byb to get their dog's. If choices are reputable breeders, byb and shelters/rescues and they cannot obtain one from a reputable source, what alternatives are there? Not everyone is comfortable getting an adult dog that may or may not have some history to deal with.

While I understand that breeders are breeding primarily for themselves, and do understand that they have the right to sell to whomever they choose to or not...what choice does that leave the average person looking for a healthy well bred dog who might not be in the inner circle so to speak?
Certainly, new folks to the breed have more to prove to breeders than those have been in the breed for years with a good track record as either a companion owner or someone titling dogs. And they might have to wait longer and talk to more breeders than someone with a proven history.

robinb is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to robinb For This Useful Post:
Dobies 71 (10-09-2011)
post #33 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 12:56 PM
Alpha
 
Adobe4two's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 553
Location: Florida
Dogs Name: Goryeo
Dogs Age: 1 year
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Adobe4two's Gallery
Thanks: 519
Thanked 1,596 Times in 428 Posts
                     
Breeders have a right to be selective with who they sell a dog to. But buyers have a right to be selective as to who they buy a dog from and whether or not the dog offered is acceptable to them.

I think the OP's complaint is reasonable. And that complaint isn't that they were turned down, its how they were treated and how the situation was handled. And if it is as they say, then the breeder in question handled things poorly.

And frankly, I WOULD want to hear about situations like these.
Yes, a breeder and puppy buyer want to stay on good terms. How exactly does a puppy buyer stay on good terms with a temperamental, unreliable, difficult or inconsiderate breeder? Not saying the breeder in question is any of this, but these are all aspects that are unconnected to a breeder's breeding program, but not unconnected to the purchase of the puppy or a potential co-ownership.

I certainly would be put off if I were to be considering getting a puppy from a breeder that, even BEFORE money & dog had changed hands, was brushing me off, disrespecting of myself and my time and leading me on for a while before finally telling me they had no intention of ever following through with a pup/dog since I wouldn't accept the first dog they threw at me out of their convenience.

The breeder's treatment of potential puppy buyers or varying situation may not reflect the quality of their dogs. But it DOES reflect the potential issues one might face as a puppy buyer, a puppy owner and most definitely as a co-owner.

Its absurd to encourage sharing negative experiences with BYB and puppy mills, regardless of whether the issue is specifically the dog and purchase. And then nag at anyone who dares post about a reputable breeder.

I also don't get why people are getting after the situation the wrong way. The OP isn't complaining that they were rejected. They are complaining about HOW the entire situation was handled. (Being stood up, brushed off without apology, led on and then tossed out.)

Or that they're getting flack for not accepting a dog that was their right to refuse.

Again, breeder has the right to decide who they sell a dog to. Buyer has final decision over whether they'll accept the dog offered. Just like a seller can get gut feeling red flags about a buyer, a buyer can get gut feeling red flags about a dog or breeder. If for any reason the buyer didn't feel comfortable buying that dog, then its their choice (rightfully so) not to buy it. It may be an outstanding dog with a stellar future.. But that isn't the point.
Adobe4two is offline  
The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Adobe4two For This Useful Post:
Adara (10-09-2011), Gemma Mom (10-12-2011), Henry (10-10-2011), LuvMyDobes (10-10-2011), MeadowCat (10-10-2011), melbrod (10-13-2011), mmctaq (10-09-2011), Mr.Poubelle (10-10-2011), Navistardobe (10-09-2011), Q734 (10-09-2011), RedFawnRising (10-09-2011), RottenVonSpotten (10-09-2011), TeachersPet (10-09-2011), the_discowhore (10-09-2011)
post #34 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 01:20 PM
Alpha
 
MsMoppett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 907
Location: New Orleans, LA
Dogs Name: Penelope the cat
Titles: An old lady in a fur coat...

Gallery Pics: 2
Visit MsMoppett's Gallery
Thanks: 1,011
Thanked 1,790 Times in 639 Posts
Images: 2
                     
I second the idea that this is a communication issue, on BOTH ends.

OP, did Adlercrest ever explain to you why the 5 month old was returned? Just curious. Also, did you make it a point to ask why this puppy was returned? It seems as if this is where the communication issue began. Maybe this conversation and your concerns about the 5 month old could have clarified what you were looking for and why this dog did not fit the bill.

Maybe they were under the impression you were ready to take the 5 month old when you weren't wholly committed to that idea, and when you turned them down on this dog, they may have possibly assumed you didn't want a dog from them at all!

-Do you see all of the maybes, possiblys, and assumes that are in this thread? In future, I would be sincere and clear of my wants and desires. This will hopefully implore others to do the same with you. I do not think you are at fault, a bad home, or a bad puppy owner here. I do not think Adlercrest meant to create this experience with you either. I think it all comes down to the old addage, "When you assume, you make an *ss out of you and me" (channeling 8th grade here).

Like RFR said, transparency in all aspects is key!



"Rooooooooooooooooo!"
MsMoppett is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to MsMoppett For This Useful Post:
MeadowCat (10-10-2011)
post #35 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 02:03 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,533
Location: San Diego
Dogs Name: Macy
Titles: 12 AKC pts
Dogs Age: 3 yrs.
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobies 71's Gallery
Thanks: 2,359
Thanked 2,248 Times in 890 Posts
                     
A Guess

Well here's a guess on my experience part:

Most people, who don't know that much about this breed, do not know just how fast the breed grows. So in going to look at a 5 month old it may have been a shock to an inexperienced eye. The bitch may have looked full grown when the person was expecting to see a puppy.

On the breeder's side let me use a very recent example:

I have been spending quite a bit of time replying to one inquiry email for a puppy. I became very excited about this pet home because they looked ideal. So I spent a lot of time getting aquainted with them.

Well over the course of emails, and my time, the question was asked about time line for the actual placement of the pup. When they heard that, and the price, the email just abruptly stopped. No message of thank you we would like a dog sooner etc. They just left the end open.

I know why they did this. Its sort of like looking for the right person for a job when hireing. You don't want to close any doors.

But it leaves me hanging. And, how can I consider they are in line and serious when they just drop off the planet? Its rude on both parts.

What I liked so much about these people is that they were very concerned about health; but they also were local, so that would be good for my support.

The buyer will never find what they are looking for locally. But because they want it now, as most pet buyers do, they will fall into the other side of lessor health of which they were striving for.

I cannot tell them this. They will find out by the luck of the draw.

I did not buy locally because in my opinion there is not much here worth the take. Likewise to stud dogs. They were all for that until the minor inconvience of waiting until the puppy was 9 weeks old cropped etc came into the vision. And, of course the birthdate.

Sadly, pet buyers think puppies are something just always available and taken off the shelf for their need when they want it. (Next day service)

I feel somewhat cheated in the time I spent with these people. It is all in the cards of being a breeder.

But the point I am making is that it can be no fun finding the right homes for these babies. People who know no better fall on their own sword too. Had it been me, I would have said, "Please keep me in mind, but I wanted a pup sooner. If I don't find one sooner, I will contant you again." That would have felt so much better for the time I spent.

Its all in a day's work I guess.
Dobies 71 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dobies 71 For This Useful Post:
Q734 (10-09-2011), SusaninCali (10-09-2011)
post #36 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 02:20 PM
Holier Than Now
 
RedFawnRising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 22,475
Dogs Name: Whisper; George; Mina, Nashua, Arcus
Titles: George-Working Service Dog
Dogs Age: 9 yr, 5 yr, 4 yr, 2 yr, 1.5 yr
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit RedFawnRising's Gallery
Thanks: 72,151
Thanked 77,341 Times in 18,231 Posts
Images: 3
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by adobe4two View Post
...its absurd to encourage sharing negative experiences with byb and puppy mills, regardless of whether the issue is specifically the dog and purchase. And then nag at anyone who dares post about a reputable breeder...
+1000




My heart has joined the thousand, for my friend stopped running today~Richard Adams


"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
―Cyril Connolly
RedFawnRising is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to RedFawnRising For This Useful Post:
Adara (10-09-2011), Henry (10-10-2011), LuvMyDobes (10-10-2011), QueenSybilla (10-22-2011)
post #37 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 11:02 PM
Alpha
 
punkischic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,134
Location: SFV, California
Dogs Name: Luke (Labrador x Pit Bull)
Titles: Retired guide dog & beloved pet~
Dogs Age: 6 yrs old (7/4/08)
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit punkischic's Gallery
Thanks: 3,540
Thanked 3,347 Times in 1,425 Posts
                     
personally, as this is my own opinion, i don't think this issue is worth sharing as a negative experience.

there seems to be too many possibilities that would have caused this turn out, perhaps the breeder forgot about the OP and their interest in a puppy? i'm sure it's happened, and i would hope that the OP wouldn't insinuate that because of this experience it would make Adlercrest a "bad" breeder--there are far too many variables.

the only thing the OP lost was time in looking for another breeder, there seems to be no mention of poor breeding ethics, and Adlercrest has a plethora of satisfied puppy owners (both pet owners in the general public and respected people in the breed) with pretty healthy, working titled dogs..

so i believe this is a case of a communication misunderstanding between both parties, not a review to share with the public like this is yelp.com. i'm all for transparency, but only when it matters (breeding program).

something clever goes here.
punkischic is offline  
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to punkischic For This Useful Post:
bubsy (10-10-2011), Darkevs (10-10-2011), Dobies 71 (10-10-2011), hjgrl (10-10-2011), Kalecho (10-09-2011), lemon (10-12-2011), MsMoppett (10-10-2011), odiakkoh (10-09-2011), robinb (10-10-2011)
post #38 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 11:07 PM
Alpha
 
Kalecho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,842
Location: PA
Dogs Name: Rally, Echo, Twister, Racyn, Quest, Zippy, Rainy
Titles: AKC GCH CH and CD
Dogs Age: 11mo to 10yrs
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Kalecho's Gallery
Thanks: 2,645
Thanked 3,640 Times in 1,142 Posts
                     
Thank goodness for you and others who can put my thoughts right into words, cause sometimes I can't do it. Thank You



Quote:
Originally Posted by punkischic View Post
personally, as this is my own opinion, i don't think this issue is worth sharing as a negative experience.

there seems to be too many possibilities that would have caused this turn out, perhaps the breeder forgot about the OP and their interest in a puppy? i'm sure it's happened, and i would hope that the OP wouldn't insinuate that because of this experience it would make Adlercrest a "bad" breeder--there are far too many variables.

the only thing the OP lost was time in looking for another breeder, there seems to be no mention of poor breeding ethics, and Adlercrest has a plethora of satisfied puppy owners (both pet owners in the general public and respected people in the breed) with pretty healthy, working titled dogs..

so i believe this is a case of a communication misunderstanding between both parties, not a review to share with the public like this is yelp.com. i'm all for transparency, but only when it matters (breeding program).

Pat Reinhardt
Shadeko Dobermans
AKC GCh Ch Shadeko's When Dreams Come True CD CGC
AKC Ch Shadeko's Twist N Shout
AKC GCh Ch Shadeko's Bringin' On The Heat CD CGC
AKC Ch Shadeko's Friday Night Fright CD
Shadeko's Here Comes The Sun NAP NJP (AKC Ch Pointed)
Kalecho is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kalecho For This Useful Post:
Dobies 71 (10-10-2011), punkischic (10-09-2011)
post #39 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 11:17 PM
Alpha
 
Adobe4two's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 553
Location: Florida
Dogs Name: Goryeo
Dogs Age: 1 year
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Adobe4two's Gallery
Thanks: 519
Thanked 1,596 Times in 428 Posts
                     
Again, breeding program is not the only concern when dealing with and selecting a breeder.

There are plenty of breeders who do things right, then turn out to be holy terrors (a few on this forum can vouch for it. Missing dogs who turned up sold (despite not being owned or even co-owned by the breeder who sold it), vindictive actions against dogs and puppy owners, ect.)

Part of buying a puppy from a reputable breeder is the expectation that the new puppy owner can look to the breeder for guidance and support through out the life of the puppy. There is also the very common situation of co-ownership. The aspects of consideration for these two parts of selecting a breeder is NOT the breeder's breeding program. It is the breeder themselves as an individual, their interactions with others and their treatment of potential and actual puppy buyers.

A breeder who is crass, rude and disrespectful of a potential puppy buyer's time, money and self... Is likely to be the same way afterwards, if not worse. And is also likely to be a nightmare as a co-owner, especially if their co-ownership contract allows them extensive right after the sale.

These ARE details that are worth hearing. Of course, all experiences should be taken with a grain of salt, but experiences like this DO hold value in considering a breeder.
Adobe4two is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Adobe4two For This Useful Post:
Mr.Poubelle (10-10-2011), RedFawnRising (10-10-2011)
post #40 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-09-2011, 11:35 PM
Alpha
 
punkischic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,134
Location: SFV, California
Dogs Name: Luke (Labrador x Pit Bull)
Titles: Retired guide dog & beloved pet~
Dogs Age: 6 yrs old (7/4/08)
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit punkischic's Gallery
Thanks: 3,540
Thanked 3,347 Times in 1,425 Posts
                     
i'll have to respectfully disagree, Adobe4two. simply because, like i stated, considering Adlercrest has a pretty decent reputation with multiple puppy buyers (both pet owners and respected breed exhibitors/breeders), signs point to a communication misunderstanding between both parties.

there is no prohibiting the OP from posting their experience, and i'm sure there are people who think this experience is worth sharing but i don't when there are a multitude of reasons as to why things happened the way they did. we are discussing one particular breeder, and one experience that a potential puppy buyer had. if they tried selling a sickly puppy without a contract, or falsely misrepresenting themselves to a puppy buyer, i'd love to hear about it.. but not because a puppy buyer is disgruntled because they felt they wasted their time.

something clever goes here.
punkischic is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to punkischic For This Useful Post:
Kalecho (10-09-2011), robinb (10-10-2011)
post #41 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 08:27 AM
Alpha
 
LuvMyDobes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,334
Location: Central Maryland
Dogs Name: Cara's Seize The Moment - Sweep
Titles: RN, CTL1, CGC,
Dogs Age: born 10/23/2007
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit LuvMyDobes's Gallery
Thanks: 1,057
Thanked 2,470 Times in 1,071 Posts
Images: 5
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyB View Post
I don't really think a bad experience with a recommended breeder is the norm.
It's unfortunate that this happened to you, and thank you for letting us know.
However, I don't think that is the reason BYB's exist.

Best of luck with your search.
I agree it is not why BYB exist, but if so called reputable breeders are not more congenial and compliant with people seeking puppies, they very well may contribute to people turning to them. They are the ones in the breed who should be teachers and mentors. There are lots of good caring breeders out there. Have patience and good luck in finding just the right puppy for you.

Dragon Slaying Dobermans Incorporated member #44
LuvMyDobes is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to LuvMyDobes For This Useful Post:
Navistardobe (10-10-2011), RedFawnRising (10-10-2011)
post #42 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 09:02 AM
Alpha
 
LuvMyDobes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,334
Location: Central Maryland
Dogs Name: Cara's Seize The Moment - Sweep
Titles: RN, CTL1, CGC,
Dogs Age: born 10/23/2007
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit LuvMyDobes's Gallery
Thanks: 1,057
Thanked 2,470 Times in 1,071 Posts
Images: 5
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobies 71 View Post
<<<<<<snip>>>>>>I have been looking into the cost of shipping to Chicago in January. First no airlines take live animals that time of year into Chicago. There is that temperature restriction again. Any time the temp goes below 45 degrees by Federal law no animals are allowed to fly. Chicago will not be 45 degrees in January.

Why is the buyer not flying in to pick up the puppy? I purchased a puppy in July when the heat prohibited flying it, so I flew to Tennessee from Maryland to pick it up. I also drove a ten hour round trip to pick up my last Dobe. A good friend of mine flew from Virginia to California to pick up her new GSP puppy a few months ago and another few to Europe. We all incorporate the price of possible travel into the amount we spend because we believe that our vested interest begins at point of transfer with the breeder, and not off of a loading dock.

Dragon Slaying Dobermans Incorporated member #44
LuvMyDobes is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to LuvMyDobes For This Useful Post:
wantsaDobe (10-10-2011)
post #43 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 09:11 AM
Big Pup
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 37
Location: Ontario,Canada
Dogs Name: Baby
Titles: no
Dogs Age: 07/08/1999
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Sirmann's Gallery
Thanks: 55
Thanked 25 Times in 13 Posts
   
Peggy Adamson was quite clear about expectations for the reputable when she wrote...What is a breeder? Truer words never spoken for me. When I read the breeders forum I am sure I can hear her voice.

The time is now long overdue for our current national club mentors to write...

What is the 'reputable' forever home?
Sirmann is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sirmann For This Useful Post:
Dobies 71 (10-10-2011), Kalecho (10-10-2011)
post #44 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 09:55 AM
Alpha
 
Motomutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 478
Location: South Burb's Chicago IL
Dogs Name: Gunner and Savannah
Titles: AKC GCH, UKC GCH, CD, CDX, WAC, ROM, RN
Dogs Age: 11 and 3
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit Motomutt's Gallery
Thanks: 1,609
Thanked 718 Times in 294 Posts
Images: 5
                     
I think the whole point that is being missed is the fact that they were going to be allowed to purchase a returned dog.

****
To the OP were you being too particular, I see you said that the dog had missing hair on the tail all of my dogs to some extent have missing hair on their tails does not mean that the dock was done incorrectly. Did you discuss this with the breeder? If you did this probably would have been enough to throw up red flags.

Remember no dog is perfect and by expressing this breeder probably had concerns. What ifís ÖÖ probably came to the breeder mind.

If you did not express this to the breeder than go back to top statement Ö.

I am not familiar with Aldercrest, but I believe $2,500.00 for pet is a little too much.

Good luck to you in the search.

AKC GCH/U GCH/Int'l Ch. Rolin's Aurora Australis " Savannah"
Genesis Travelin' Man - "Hunter"
Genesis Learning to Fly "Raven"

In Memory of:
Cheyenne's Morning Star
CDX / U-CDX/FO "Cheyenne" 4/03/1999 - 4/02/2011

Baycreek God of Thunder "Thor" 6/13/99 - 3/12/2011

UKC GCH Smack-Dab's Raising Cain CD "J.R." 9/05/2004 - 11/08/2014

AKC CH./U-GCH Smack-Dab's In The line of Fire CD WAC ROM "Gunner
11/11/2003 - 11/23/2015

Motomutt is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Motomutt For This Useful Post:
bubsy (10-10-2011)
post #45 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 10:42 AM
Alpha
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,533
Location: San Diego
Dogs Name: Macy
Titles: 12 AKC pts
Dogs Age: 3 yrs.
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobies 71's Gallery
Thanks: 2,359
Thanked 2,248 Times in 890 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvMyDobes View Post

Why is the buyer not flying in to pick up the puppy? I purchased a puppy in July when the heat prohibited flying it, so I flew to Tennessee from Maryland to pick it up. I also drove a ten hour round trip to pick up my last Dobe. A good friend of mine flew from Virginia to California to pick up her new GSP puppy a few months ago and another few to Europe. We all incorporate the price of possible travel into the amount we spend because we believe that our vested interest begins at point of transfer with the breeder, and not off of a loading dock.
I think you misunderstood. I am going back to breed my bitch to the stud dog I want. So I am taking a full grown adult to Chicago in the Wintertime. That is the issue. I do not want to wait due to age etc.; so I am going then.

Last edited by Dobies 71; 10-10-2011 at 10:54 AM.
Dobies 71 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Dobies 71 For This Useful Post:
Adara (10-10-2011)
post #46 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 10:54 AM
Alpha
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,533
Location: San Diego
Dogs Name: Macy
Titles: 12 AKC pts
Dogs Age: 3 yrs.
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobies 71's Gallery
Thanks: 2,359
Thanked 2,248 Times in 890 Posts
                     
If It Makes Anyone Feel Better

Here I am, and even for me, no one would sell even me a puppy. I inquired all over the place and I was not good enough.

No one remembered me. That was true for the early days when some of the bigger breeders got their start. I was in the ring with them but they forgot who I was.

I had to detour because I was a single parent with 2 boys to raise. They did not have kids. They still don't have kids except one now has adopted one. I was also going to college full time. They were not doing these things. So its very hard to show a dog with this on your plate.

When I wanted to step back in the ring, I knew who and how but that was not good enough.

A few people did remember me but had no puppies. All of a sudden there were all kinds of what I would term "new breeders" that came in while I was gone. They didn't have the time of day for me.

I bought an R.P. puppy via Mary Rodgers. She was very supportive. But then that puppy got sick. I did not blame her.

Then I proceeded to get a puppy from someone who had that same line. They then called me "family" which allowed me to have one of their pups. Thus, my girl's name, "Baystar's All In The Family." They had different theme names for me to pick, but I thought it was fitting since I was a part of this pedigree so to speak.

Anyway, you have really no idea what I went through being taken for serious in purchasing a pup. Now people remember me and take me serious.

But signing a contract where they had all the rights, and I none, was not for me. I especially had a problem with their determination of who would be the "handler." You can get real taken on that part alone.

So I think people should not feel bad in looking for a puppy. I was turned down by many. I got mine and she is the one for me. "Things have a way of working out." That is my favorite old age statement.
Dobies 71 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Dobies 71 For This Useful Post:
Motomutt (10-10-2011)
post #47 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 11:58 AM
Alpha
 
LindaH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,038
Dogs Name: Sunburg's Indian River Park "Parker"
Dogs Age: Born May 24, 2007
Gallery Pics: 25
Visit LindaH's Gallery
Thanks: 24,910
Thanked 24,133 Times in 9,828 Posts
Images: 25
                     
The OP was offered a pup and he turned it down. If I was the breeder and was told those two reasons it would make me rethink letting him have one of my precious puppies. What if it develops a sensitive digestive system or he decides the tail is still too bald at 6 months? Since he doesnt know piddling is caused merely by puppy excitement, is he going to think puppy play growls are threatening doberman behavor? He has nitpicked once, what if he decides he doesnt like the next puppy that is picked for him and wants a liuermate planned for someone else and they had already seen their puppy? I can see all sorts of things popping up in the breeders mind, but really, not a whole lot probably went thru Philips mind as much experience as he has pl acing puppies. He probably didnt think of the OP again. And there will never be enough responsible show or working breeders to fill the publics need, so there will always be byb happy to pump out those puppies and dump the surplus on pounds and rescues.

Last edited by LindaH; 10-10-2011 at 12:21 PM.
LindaH is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to LindaH For This Useful Post:
bubsy (10-11-2011), Dobies 71 (10-10-2011), hjgrl (10-10-2011), Kalecho (10-10-2011), robinb (10-10-2011)
post #48 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 12:03 PM
Big Pup
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 37
Location: Ontario,Canada
Dogs Name: Baby
Titles: no
Dogs Age: 07/08/1999
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Sirmann's Gallery
Thanks: 55
Thanked 25 Times in 13 Posts
   
These are dire times for breeders.Too much internet!

Co-ownerships are in the very best interests for the breeder in this day and age.

You,the public, don't want kennels,you don't want faults,you expect them to be rocket scientists via health testing,everything must be titled.The breeds standards must satisfy you in every way.The icons of the breed aren't good enough for you.Now you want breeding rights? AND think your entitled to them because you know how to 'show' the breed best because long ago you may or might not have.

My hands almost cramped typing that one.I'm sure I've STILL missed something.

Breeders have hold backs and returns.That IS reputably bred pet quality in this day and age.Be grateful the Doberman still has enough registered and titled breed stock to accommodate your fantasies.

What is the 'reputable' forever home? .....Peggy Adamson is rolling in her grave.
Sirmann is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Sirmann For This Useful Post:
Kalecho (10-10-2011)
post #49 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 12:48 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,533
Location: San Diego
Dogs Name: Macy
Titles: 12 AKC pts
Dogs Age: 3 yrs.
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobies 71's Gallery
Thanks: 2,359
Thanked 2,248 Times in 890 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirmann View Post
These are dire times for breeders.Too much internet!

Co-ownerships are in the very best interests for the breeder in this day and age.

You,the public, don't want kennels,you don't want faults,you expect them to be rocket scientists via health testing,everything must be titled.The breeds standards must satisfy you in every way.The icons of the breed aren't good enough for you.Now you want breeding rights? AND think your entitled to them because you know how to 'show' the breed best because long ago you may or might not have.

My hands almost cramped typing that one.I'm sure I've STILL missed something.

What is the 'reputable' forever home? .....Peggy Adamson is rolling in her grave.


Excuse me but if this was meant for me, you are barking up the wrong tree. I have shown my bitch and almost finished her. She has 12 pts, and just needs the last major. She has 2 reserves to that last major.

I intend to breed her finished or not and then return her to the ring. I started her rather late and now her age has become a factor.

BREEDING RIGHTS!

Are you calling me a BYB? Excuse me but I have well paid my dues.

As to contracts, I have no problem with them as long as they are fair. A contract nowdays with a decent dog forces the new owner to mearly be a "sponser" of the breeder's dog. That is my opinion.

The contracts that are going around nowdays for a show dog are thus:

Co-Owned, buyer pays all expenses. The choice of the handler is the breeder's. The amount of shows is usually at least 40. I have no problem with that except the handler part. Here's my problem:

First litter, the breeder takes half and the first of the picks of that half.

Second litter, the breeder takes half and the first of the picks of that half.

Third litter, the breeders takes first pick.

So after someone who as cleaned your litter of all, what are you the new guy left with? And, really forced to breed 3 times? That's the only way you'd get a decent pick. The co-owner is thus stuck with the pets. What a way to get a start.

Add to this the breeder gets the pick of the stud dog. This is irregardless of health issues that may conflict with you the buyer.

This is rampet in all the breeds showing right now not just Dobermans.

I think it is sickening and people wonder why no one is showing dogs like the old days.

I totally conflict with your above statement.

Its my checkbook and I will spend it as I see it. If you don't feel at a "friendly" enough level with the buyer, you shouldn't be going there. I figure with anyone I do business, there is always a come back. So I can get a puppy later from them etc of what I sold for show.

You are nuts if you think the general public who wants to show is willing to go this route. I would stay in pets and rescue if that's how its done. My money was earned too hard to "sponser" one of these "big" boys. It sure would be cheaper and easier to just have a "fixed" pet, stay home and keep my money, use it for trips etc. I'd love to travel instead with it!

And, yeah, Peggy Adamson was one of my mentors. I am an old cogger.

Last edited by Dobies 71; 10-10-2011 at 12:50 PM.
Dobies 71 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Dobies 71 For This Useful Post:
Sirmann (10-10-2011)
post #50 of 86 (permalink) Old 10-10-2011, 12:55 PM
Big Pup
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 37
Location: Ontario,Canada
Dogs Name: Baby
Titles: no
Dogs Age: 07/08/1999
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Sirmann's Gallery
Thanks: 55
Thanked 25 Times in 13 Posts
   
Context is everything.

Obviously.you have been 'out' for a very long time.There hasn't been enough foundation available be accommodate the reputable for a very long time.

I am calling it as I see it.

@ Dobies 71

By the standards of today.....in the general public's eyes all breeders are greeders.
Sirmann is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sirmann For This Useful Post:
Dobies 71 (10-10-2011), Sinister (10-12-2011)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Tags
adlercrest

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome