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Reputable breeders - for new folks

76K views 103 replies 53 participants last post by  Alida 
#1 ·
There have been a lot of breeder inquiries lately and some defensive people defending breeders whom they thought, or think, are reputable. So it begs the question, what qualifies a breeder as reputable.

Well, the answer is in the eye of the beholder mostly. Typically people on this forum would qualify a reputable breeder who does the following:

1. Health testing.
It is no shock that this is a breed that is plauged by more health problems than most. A breeder who doesn't health test cannot be reputable in my eyes. My own criteria for health testing is that brefore being bred a dog should have at minimum cardio tests (this has gotten more complicated but hopefully we are moving forward with progress), vWD and hips. That is minimum. I prefer also CERF, thyroid, elbows and liver bloodwork as well. For those breeders who say the pups have been checked... yes, the pups should have seen a vet at some point, but the majority of the health exams should belong to the parents.

2. Some kind of certification in a venue.
If you are looking at a working prospect, the parents of the litter should have working titles. If you are looking for a show prospect, the parents should be active in conformation shows. Just looking for a pet? Well, there are pet puppies in every litter so you are in luck! You can still get a pup from titled parents, usually for the same price as gimmick breeders. I.e. Family Dobes sells for 2500 with no ear crops and non-titled, or low titled parents. While there are always exceptions to the rules, in general breeders should be active in the venue that they are claiming to improve.

3. Few litters per year.
I would find it hard to believe that puppies get the appropriate amount of socialization if someone has more than 2-3 litters per year. Raising a litter takes a LOT of time. A lot. Raising many litters would probably do me in.

Anyways, when it looks like people are bashing breeders it is probably because some of these items are missing. There are a lot of really good breeders out there. Not all of the good ones are on this site. Not all of the breeders on this site are what I would call reputable. But again, it all comes down to what every individual wants or expects. These three categories are just my criteria when people ask me if breeders are reputable.
 
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#6 ·
I don't think it is going the extra mile per se. I think all breeders should test for these things, I do still believe that the top three (in my book) are cardio, vWD and hips. I also realise that not everyone believes in all tests. To each their own on that. A breeder who doesn't do any testing isn't worth much in my book.
 
#85 ·
Recomending a breeder



Hello Im Cecilia Martinez Southernwind Kennels in PR, PR is an AKC and FCI country, as an FCI judge i get many requests about breeders reputations on PR, I always recomend tha when buying from an FCI country, you should also always contact the FCI offices in the country, they will recomend or not recommend breeders nd this is a state of fact.
 
#10 ·
My response to those individuals is to rescue. There are plenty of wonderful, pet quality Dobermans waiting in rescue for good homes and loving families.

I am in total support of ethical work and show breeders, but I have no problem with someone not wanting to pay $1500+ for a pet. IMHO there's just no good reason to support a BYB rather than a rescue if purchase price is an issue.
 
#102 ·
take back the dog yes but any money refund?



So here is my question on this: Should the breeder then refund some part or all of the money paid out? If they have taken good care of the dog they have poured a lot of money and time into that dog in training and vet care. If the dog is in poor quality health and training, the dog is not worth much, the breeder may have to pour a lot more resources in to basically rescue the dog. Is this one of those case by case basis questions?
 
#7 ·
I agree

I agree with WorkingK9's "A breeder who doesn't do any testing isn't worth much in my book" as well. What is even worse is when they lie about testing and say they do but really don't. Know that to me is about as low as you can go. But it happens so let the buyers beware. Any breeder who does testing should be happy to share the results with their customers that buy their pups.
 
#12 ·
There have been a lot of breeder inquiries lately and some defensive people defending breeders whom they thought, or think, are reputable. So it begs the question, what qualifies a breeder as reputable.

Well, the answer is in the eye of the beholder mostly. Typically people on this forum would qualify a reputable breeder who does the following:

In addition to everything you have said, I would think that a reputable breeder would ask a ton of questions about you and your home situation, because they truly care about where their puppies are going.

Great thread, OP.
 
#16 ·
I would find it hard to believe that puppies get the appropriate amount of socialization if someone has more than 2-3 litters per year. .

This sounds very familiar :sunglasse

I would like to ad that even though health testing is extremely important its still only a small peace of the pie when it comes to a reputable breeder.
 
#17 · (Edited)
While that maybe "baseline" for health testing... All the testing in the world doesn't necessarily create reputable breeder.

I think it equally important that the breeder asks just as many, if not more questions of you (The Buyer) and your ability to care for this life which the breeder is responsible for bringing into this world.

I don't think it unreasonable for a breeder to ask for personal references, check employment, ask for a two months worth of pay stubs.

If you contact a breeder who is breeding "titled" dogs, health test and only has two litters a year, and goes straight to the "Deposit" inquiry... I'd second guess that breeder. Not to say that many byb's are doing what I'm suggesting is the "base line" health testing... Just saying it's a lot more than just testing, showing and having only a few litters each year.
 
#22 ·
From what I have learned here and other places, in addition to much that has already been mentioned, a "reputable" or "responsible" breeder is one that has been breeding one breed of dog for many years and knows his or her line with regards to health and temperament. IMO it seems that breeding living creatures such as dogs has a lot to do with the "feel" of the breeder for what they are breeding. NO responsible breeder would breed an animal that has ANY type of negative genetic problem that can be passed on. This is determined obviously through health testing and lineage knowledge and experience.
 
#23 ·
I know it can be very difficult for the average owner wanting a great companion Doberman to find the right breeder. Sure, for owners who have previously worked for advanced titles or have shown other Dobe's they already have a lot of connections with breeders but for the average owner who isn't on doberman talk all they can do is search online and in puppy magazines. DT is so etremly helpful its a shame not every future doberman owner knew about this site.
 
#27 ·
Yes, I am in Canada, if that matters.

I am sorry, my experience is with a breeder that would do this. I don't think she would ship a puppy so far away that it wouldn't be possible.

Not saying that some people wouldn't be amazing far away homes. There are those that can be verified, and those that we think would be. Until they change, like Amanda and BIB on here. So much further investigation required there I would think.

If I was a breeder, I'd keep them under my umbrella, just saying. It must get scarier as that umbrella widens.
 
#28 ·
Valid points, all of them. This is just a thread of what types of things I look for in a breeder. Even under the best circumstances, things can happen. In these times it is great when a person and their breeder can come to an understanding and work out any potential issues.

There are definitely things that breeders look for in an owner. Perhaps I should make a thread on puppy buyers and things I look for. IT may help new people in how to approch breeders for puppies and help with current dogs.
 
#30 ·
There are definitely things that breeders look for in an owner. Perhaps I should make a thread on puppy buyers and things I look for. IT may help new people in how to approch breeders for puppies and help with current dogs.
I'd actually really appreciate that if you posted a thread like that. I've never dealt with a breeder so I don't know what they're expecting/what to expect from them and it'd be great to know what's going on from your perspectives without wasting breeders' times asking silly questions before we're ready for a new addition. All the shelter cared about was that we were financially and physically capable of taking care of Niz/dealing with his issues. :(
 
#31 ·
From personal experience I know that you can not just take back a dog. Once someone has paid the set price you have put on the dog you can not just walk up to them and take it back, contract or no contract. I sell everything I breed on a co ownership. Don't like it don't buy one of our pups. However this would not allow me to take a dog back just because the owner and I have a falling out. I know this because we went to court over a dog I sold and the owner and I had a huge disagreement over training and a few other things. They put the dog down. We lost in the first round because as the judge stated, the people paid the set price so I was not out any money, period. The only thing the contract and co ownership allowed me to do is get the dog back if it were dumped in a pound or rescue. You can do all the contracts and checking up but it only goes so far. Most people will return the dog because of the contracts but not everyone. If the dog is being abused you can get the authorities involved and then you can get the dog back. This was in Ontario Canada, I have no idea about the US. As my lawyer warned me, if I put a dog out in a keeper home don't sell it place it then I have control. But of course the pet pups are sold.
 
#42 · (Edited)
I'm no lawyer, BUT:



You cannot take a dog back without a court order to do so. Just like a repo man, who must get a court order even when money is owing on an item prior to repo....otherwise you are stealing in the eyes of the law.

A judge would laugh you (globally speaking) out of court if you said you wanted to reposess a dog for bad ear taping or the wrong kind of training for example. The law just doesn't work that way....and posession IS 9/10th the law. Ditto on co-ownerships. I think these points are why so many people think contracts are unenforceable. They have uneducated and unrealistic expectations of the court system.

On thing the court WILL recognize is first right of refusal, in otherwords, as the seller you can retain the right to repurchase or reclaim a dog if the original owner no longer can or will keep it. This is a standard clause in a lot of contracts. One sees it frequently in real estate.

In my contract I have certain requirements (reasonable and customary)expected of the buyer. If any of those requirements are breached, for example the dog is found to be abused, I can sue them for material breach of my contract. This is also based on the fact that breaching my contract affects my reputation. I then have a huge monetary amount for breach of contract OR the owner can prevent a lawsuit by returning the dog to me. (My main goal is to get the dog back, not a monetary settlement). One has to understand how the law works and how best to word a contract so that it will be recognized in court. I have had several lawyers purchase dogs from me....and have commented on how my contract is written. Another important point is that material breach must be reasonable....my contract has 3 basic items: 1) proper, reasonable and customary care for the dog 2) my kennel name on the registration 3) first right of refusal.

Too many people write extensive requirements in their contracts...type of food, etc....these are not enforceable and the court looks at contracts as needing to be fair and equitable for both parties. Contracts that have pages and pages of requirements by the seller and no equality for the buyer are going to be much harder to get past a court of law.

Regards,
 
#32 ·
I don't remember exactly how it is worded in my contract, but my understanding is that if my breeder, for any reason whatsoever, even suspected that Bella was being mistreated in any way, she has the right to come to my house and retrieve her, immediately.

Also, from my understanding of my contract and also, through many conversations through out the last couple of years, I don't feel as though I own Bella outright, all by myself and that I can do whatever I wanted to do with Bella. My sense of it, is that my breeder still has total say-so on whatever plans I'd have for her.

Perhaps my breeder should send her contract to all of these breeders who place their puppies in homes where things go whacky and they feel they have no recourse and that they feel 'it is so hard' to control what happens to the puppies they are responsible for bringing into the world.

I'm afraid of my breeder........;)....just kidding....kinda.

Seriously, thank God, we're on the same page as to what's best for Bella, but I am real clear that if we weren't, she still takes full responsibility for Bellas welfare and I wouldn't think of doing anything with Bella that I wouldn't pass by her first.

So, however she words her contracts, I am not confused as to what is expected of me and what she'll do to me, if I don't comply....
 
#33 ·
I don't know how the law works in the US I'm only talking about Ontario Canada. I wonder if she has ever had anyone challenge her contract in court. Is your name and the breeders name on Bella's papers ? As breeders who care about their dogs we all have these contracts with the intention of protecting the dogs. But we all know if someone wants to screw you over they will.
 
#82 ·
Here in Israel, I know of a case of a Malamute (owned by a good friend of mine), who was originally purchased as a show prospect & co-owned by the breeder. When the dog was 6 months old, she was diagnosed with severe HD, and the breeder wanted her to be put down. The case got to curt, the breeder lost, and my friend got the dog the best treatment available.

The dog is now 8 years old, and has great quality of life.

However, since then I'm a bit weary of having dogs co-owned by the breeder.
 
#34 ·
The contract was one sent through for approval by a lawyer. It states that if abuse is proved, the animal shall be repossessed at my expense. There is the crux though... abuse has to be proved. If I just didn't like the way you were treating Bella, I could not just show up and take her. I would have to prove that abuse happened. That would be through animal control in the county that you live. Unfortunately, the county's law of abuse and my own are a little different.

You better believe though that if I found out that one of my puppies was being truly abused I would take matters to the courts and reclaim the dog.

Mostly, the contract is there as a just in case. What really matters is the screening as well as possible potential new homes. That is where real relationships are built. So far, I have no complaints about the owners of my puppies.
 
#46 ·
You don't use Staples anymore? Why not? I went and looked at some of the pictures of Mario's dog. Now I remember his dog Ace from another thread. Anyways, I personally like Staples crops much better...sorry Ace. I don't find the crop has a whole lot of style. Who was the cropper if you don't mind me asking?

Yes I remember *******'s crop when she was 8 weeks old..omg! Her ears looked so different from one another. And actually if you look in any pictures that are head on you can tell the difference still. Doesn't matter I still like her crop very much, and I think it suits her. :)
 
#47 ·
It took me years to get this vet to agree to take me on as a client for cropping. She won't do public crops, so there's no real point in naming her as a cropper. But I will see about sending along pics of some of her work as I get them. For starts, Eden is was cropped around the same time as Ace was. Her ears were standing by 4 1/2 months of age. http://www.dobereich.com/images/562_Eden_link_to_page.jpg I'm showing another bitch (Heidi) that was cropped from the J-litter. I'll be posting a pic of her on my website shortly. Although I'm sorry to say that Ace has had some issues post cropping, I've been pretty happy over-all with this cropper's work. I have nothing against Staples as a cropper. I have no intentions on burning any bridges when there are so very few vets around that will crop. ;) But there is rumour that Staples intends to sell his practice, and therefore there's going to be a lot of breeders looking for someone to crop their pups!

OK, enough about cropping, this thread isn't about that. call me or email me, we can chat more. ;)
 

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#48 ·
Sorry to bring this thread back but i felt the need to make an apology to the OP and to the DT members. my question was legit even if it had a small motive behind it that was derived out of some frustration. I have apologized to Monica in person and we have been communicating to see if we can fix this issue thanks again Monica and thanks to everyone who stepped up to help on this great Doberman forum. Peace
 
#49 · (Edited)
3. Few litters per year.
I would find it hard to believe that puppies get the appropriate amount of socialization if someone has more than 2-3 litters per year. Raising a litter takes a LOT of time. A lot. Raising many litters would probably do me in.
Can you please give me more details?
Puppies are ready to go when they are 8 weeks old (approx. 2 months). 2*4= 8 As per my simple calculation a breeder is capable to raise 4 litters per year if that`s the full time job... :thinking:

I have not read all posts... maybe I will find the answer there.
 
#51 ·
As long as a breeder can devote tons of time and energy into raising a litter I have no problem with 4. But... after 1 litter if a breeder signs up for another so soon would seem odd. I know after the last pup goes home for me I need a vacation! It has been a year and I am still on vacation from puppies!
 
#55 ·
While I’m not a breeder and have no desire to be, I think contracts, for the most part, are basically as good as who signs them. Of course, they need to have general guidelines spelled out.... such as; when and if the dog can be used for breeding--- if ever, good husbandry (care and housing) for the dog, and always the clause that the breeder will take the dog back for any reason for the life of the dog.

If a contract has every contingency, that could possibly happen stipulated, then it’s most likely going to step on toes and may cause hard feelings at least with some. It’s extremely difficult to spell out in a contract, or even legislate, personal responsibility. And hard feelings and lack of communication between the breeder and puppy buyer certainly is not in the best interest of anyone let alone the puppy

I think it comes down to screening and following your instincts on what feels right by both the breeder and puppy buyer. And then after the fact both parties need to make it work. And speaking from personal experience it’s worth A LOT having a good relationship with your breeder….I’m so blessed having both Cathy and Bonnie always there for my dogs 24/7.

For the established and successful breeder, the screening undoubtedly gets easier as they have more and more repeat buyers or folks that are long established with Dobermans with references that are pretty easy to check. For the first time breeder, it seems to me that a co-breeding with their breeder is probably the best way to go as gives them some of the expertise as well as a good list of potential homes.
 
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