Picking the right dog for service dog work - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
Big Pup
 
RickC3C4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 39
Location: TX
Dogs Name: Castiel

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit RickC3C4's Gallery
Thanks: 10
Thanked 31 Times in 9 Posts
   
Picking the right dog for service dog work

I'm still looking for a puppy to start in training to be a service dog. I've been communicating with someone who comes across as being a very responsible breeder and has a puppy I think would be great to start training. I was hoping some of you that know a lot more than I do about selecting a good and healthy puppy would take a look at this and let me know what your thoughts are.

The puppy is a blue Doberman and I was concerned about the additional health issues inherent to blue Dobermans but she said that she never breeds a dilute dog and this dog was the result of two black Dobermans. She has actually listed the pedigree of both parents on this webpage:

doberman

I would really like to know what some of you think.

-- -- --
"Dogs have given us their absolute all. We are the center of their universe, we are the focus of their love and faith and trust. They serve us in return for scraps. It is without a doubt the best deal man has ever made." - Roger Caras
-- -- --
RickC3C4 is offline  
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 11:58 AM
Alpha
 
btrineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 223
Location: Arizona
Dogs Name: Tank and Kraut
Titles: nope
Dogs Age: 7 yrs and 13 weeks
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit btrineer's Gallery
Thanks: 82
Thanked 135 Times in 94 Posts
           
Does she do health testing on her dogs? That would be the first question i would ask and what test does she run? What the vWD status? How long has she been breeding? How often does she have litter.

My opinion:

If I see a breeder that is breeding more than 1 type of breed I personally stay clear of them. She seems to be having alot going on with breedig 3 types of dogs, having a rescue, and her horses. Based soley on her website it looks like she is a BYB. Again this is my opinion.
btrineer is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to btrineer For This Useful Post:
Casandra (09-15-2010), hjgrl (09-15-2010), KenyaARaineCD (09-15-2010), pattym (09-18-2010), RedFawnRising (09-15-2010)
post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 12:07 PM
Holier Than Now
 
RedFawnRising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 22,475
Dogs Name: Whisper; George; Mina, Nashua, Arcus
Titles: George-Working Service Dog
Dogs Age: 9 yr, 5 yr, 4 yr, 2 yr, 1.5 yr
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit RedFawnRising's Gallery
Thanks: 72,151
Thanked 77,360 Times in 18,231 Posts
Images: 3
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickC3C4 View Post
I'm still looking for a puppy to start in training to be a service dog. I've been communicating with someone who comes across as being a very responsible breeder and has a puppy I think would be great to start training. I was hoping some of you that know a lot more than I do about selecting a good and healthy puppy would take a look at this and let me know what your thoughts are.

The puppy is a blue Doberman and I was concerned about the additional health issues inherent to blue Dobermans but she said that she never breeds a dilute dog and this dog was the result of two black Dobermans. She has actually listed the pedigree of both parents on this webpage:

doberman

I would really like to know what some of you think.
Can you explain to us what it is about this person that "comes across as being a very responsible breeder," to you?

What has she done with her Dobermans, besides employ their reproductive organs?

Who among her Dobermans has worked? Has passed a CGC? Has gone into Service Work? Had obedience titles, even?

What kind of temperament testing has she had done?

If none of that is in place, you'd just as well rescue a Doberman, because the temperament and working aptitude is just as much of a crapshoot as with this particular puppy. Actually, probably less so, if you rescue a young adult--at least you could see who the dog was, instead of wondering what it might mature into.

And, I'll second the questions about what kind of health testing, if any, this breeder does.




My heart has joined the thousand, for my friend stopped running today~Richard Adams


"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
―Cyril Connolly
RedFawnRising is offline  
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to RedFawnRising For This Useful Post:
ACarrigDobermans (09-15-2010), bubsy (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-15-2010), hjgrl (09-15-2010), KenyaARaineCD (09-15-2010), Osirisdobermanns (09-15-2010), pattym (09-18-2010), reddobes (09-15-2010), Sharly (09-15-2010)
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
Big Pup
 
RickC3C4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 39
Location: TX
Dogs Name: Castiel

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit RickC3C4's Gallery
Thanks: 10
Thanked 31 Times in 9 Posts
   
I will definitely ask her about the health testing. I do know that this is the first litter of Doberman's she's had in three years.

-- -- --
"Dogs have given us their absolute all. We are the center of their universe, we are the focus of their love and faith and trust. They serve us in return for scraps. It is without a doubt the best deal man has ever made." - Roger Caras
-- -- --
RickC3C4 is offline  
post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
Big Pup
 
RickC3C4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 39
Location: TX
Dogs Name: Castiel

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit RickC3C4's Gallery
Thanks: 10
Thanked 31 Times in 9 Posts
   
As far as what makes me believe she comes across as a responsible breeder:

She's very knowledgeable on both the breed and the different health concerns regarding Dobermans. She even stopped breeding her Dobermans so she could concentrate on her GSP's because she didn't want to neglect any Doberman litter that was produced. The rest of this litter were sold to people that show Dobermans, these two were held out because she didn't feel they were "perfect" enough for showing.

Can you or anyone else here look at the pedigree certifications she has posted and tell if they are from good lines or not?

-- -- --
"Dogs have given us their absolute all. We are the center of their universe, we are the focus of their love and faith and trust. They serve us in return for scraps. It is without a doubt the best deal man has ever made." - Roger Caras
-- -- --
RickC3C4 is offline  
post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 12:41 PM
Get the bunnies!
 
the_discowhore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,024
Location: Middle Earth
Dogs Name: Elsie & Ping
Titles: CDX UDX TT1 JDX AD RA

Gallery Pics: 6
Visit the_discowhore's Gallery
Thanks: 14,210
Thanked 17,383 Times in 5,085 Posts
Images: 6
                     
What I can see just from a brief look is that the father is from Kimbertal lines and neither parent is titled. That would be enough for me to say no.


Do it or Elsie CDX UDX TT1 JDX AD RA
Ch Alarves Completely Awesome (IMP Aus)
the_discowhore is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to the_discowhore For This Useful Post:
hjgrl (09-15-2010), KenyaARaineCD (09-15-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 12:58 PM
Toorc the Dork
 
Sharly's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,017
Location: Navarre, Florida
Dogs Name: Toorc & Tonic
Titles: Old man & Lady farts a lot
Dogs Age: 9/15/12 & 11/17/19
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Sharly's Gallery
Thanks: 1,893
Thanked 1,349 Times in 517 Posts
                     
I second the no. Just because somebody is knowledgeable about dobes doesn't mean that they should be breeding. Are they really being sold to people who show dobes? or just people who say they will show? I'm also in agreement with RFR. What has she done with her dobes?
Sharly is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sharly For This Useful Post:
pattym (09-18-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
Big Pup
 
RickC3C4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 39
Location: TX
Dogs Name: Castiel

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit RickC3C4's Gallery
Thanks: 10
Thanked 31 Times in 9 Posts
   
I sent her an e-mail asking her several of these questions, hopefully I'll have an answer soon.

-- -- --
"Dogs have given us their absolute all. We are the center of their universe, we are the focus of their love and faith and trust. They serve us in return for scraps. It is without a doubt the best deal man has ever made." - Roger Caras
-- -- --
RickC3C4 is offline  
post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 01:12 PM
Alpha
 
ShelianDobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,694
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Dogs Name: Wheeler, Spock, Fame, Whisper, Gritz
Titles: Wheeler - AKC GCH/UKC CH, RO3. Spock - AKC/UKC CH. Fame - AKC/UKC CH.
Dogs Age: Wheeler: 11/13/08 Spock: 07/10/13 Fame: 07/10/13
Gallery Pics: 17
Visit ShelianDobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,229
Thanked 13,642 Times in 3,455 Posts
Images: 17
                     
Pedigrees are entirely unimpressive. No titles until farther back in the Pedigree. The pups are very poor quality. A blue puppy is a blue puppy, regardless of what color the parents are. Being a blue the puppy is predisposed to the problems inherent in Blues.

This lady probably really cares about her animals and about what she does. Looks like her area of expertise is more with Whippets and Horses, than with Dobermans.

I think you will want a puppy from a more solid foundation. Particularly if you want to train for service. Look for a pup from titled parents; i.e. obedience titles, CGC, WAC and CH as well. I would think that you would want a pup with sound conformation as well as a sound and stable temperament.

There are a number of reputable breeders in Texas, you should be able to find just what you are looking for at a comparable price. TEXAS BREEDERS

Good Luck to you, whichever road you travel.


Shelly Wing
SHELIAN DOBERMANS
AKC GCH/UKC CH, RO3 Lyndobe's Wheel of Fortune, NTD "Wheeler" 2008-2020
AKC UKC CH Windsong's Fortune Hunter v Shelian, "Spock"
AKC UKC CH Windsong's Fame N Fortune v Shelian, "Fame"
AKC Ptd/UKC CH Shelian's Fifty Shades of Fame v Windsong, "Shade"
Shelian's A Thousand Words "Whisper"
Shelian's Words of Peace CGC BN CD RN "Olive"
Tolivar's Kiss My Gritz @Shelian v Irongate "Gritz"
www.sheliandobe.com
ShelianDobe is offline  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to ShelianDobe For This Useful Post:
ACarrigDobermans (09-15-2010), bubsy (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-15-2010), Osirisdobermanns (09-15-2010), pattym (09-18-2010), reddobes (09-15-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 01:13 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,262

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Casandra's Gallery
Thanks: 18,911
Thanked 4,993 Times in 2,153 Posts
                     
Anybody who uses a Kimbertal dog in their pedigrees is not reputable or responsible at all.

How can you think this pedigree combo is any good? These are BYB dogs produced by a breeder who is riding on the coat-tails of successful dogs, that may or may not have actually be breeding quality. Also, the fact that she says that her blue was from two black Dobermanns just proves how LITTLE she knows about the breed. There are genetic coat colour tests available so breeders can avoid producing Dilutes! These are relatively inexpensive as well, maybe $55 a locus. She probably knows diddley squat about Dobermanns compared to more ethical/reputable breeders who will most importantly for you...TEMPERAMENT TEST their puppies (think volhard etc). I fully agree with RFR when she says that you'd be way better off with a rescue over a puppy from here.

Semi-off topic:

OMG OMG?! On the sire's pedigree, there's their Dankan Dax Di Altobello stud dog...bred to a kimbertal bitch...puppies under the Altobello affix?! I didn't know that Kimbertal were doing this, that just makes me think a bazillion times less of the Altobello kennels.

EDIT:

Just have to add that you need to really stop yourself for a second and think about what you want in a Service Animal. Temperament is paramount, but also proper conformation and a good health record are necessary for a Service Animal to be able to work appropriately. These are what titles and health testing are for. If a dog doesn't have their WAE (dobermann temperament test) and CD/CGC/etc alongside obedience, agility, show, or working titles (legit ones, there are loads of fake titles you can buy), you wouldn't want to continue in that direction. Rescue dogs can have perfect temperaments and characters for Service Work too.

Dragon Slaying Doberman's Inc. Member #102

Knowledge is a gift that can never be given back.

Last edited by Casandra; 09-15-2010 at 01:27 PM.
Casandra is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Casandra For This Useful Post:
pattym (09-18-2010)
post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 01:18 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Location: Columbus, OH
Dogs Name: Protocol's As Good As it Gets
Dogs Age: Monkey 12/13/2012
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit DoodleDobe's Gallery
Thanks: 1,259
Thanked 968 Times in 247 Posts
Images: 2
                     
You asked, so IMO, the pedigree features a slew of pet quality dogs that all should have been altered. There is not a single title in 3 generations....in anything. A truly responsible breeder will only breed dogs that have been proven worthy of being bred. Worthiness, I think most people will agree, is evidenced by obtaining title in something, be it performance work or conformation, preferably both! Knowledge does not equate to responsible breeding practices.
DoodleDobe is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to DoodleDobe For This Useful Post:
bubsy (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-15-2010), Osirisdobermanns (09-15-2010), reddobes (09-15-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
Big Pup
 
RickC3C4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 39
Location: TX
Dogs Name: Castiel

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit RickC3C4's Gallery
Thanks: 10
Thanked 31 Times in 9 Posts
   
Okay here's the e-mail I sent her and her response:
-- -- -- -- --
Heather,
Just because I'm curious can you tell me if you do any of the following health test on your dogs:
-hip and elbow dysplasia
-von Willebrand disease (vWD)
-thyroid disease
-genetic eye disease
-dilated cardiac myopathy
-normal liver function

Also can you tell me if:
the parents have any confirmation, obedience, working or temperament titles?

the parents come from lines with any Longevity Certification (LC) or Bread for Longevity (BFL) certification?

the parents come from lines that are albino free?

the parents been temperament tested?

the parents completed a Working Aptitude Evaluation (WAE)

thanks for indulging my curiosity,
Rick

-- -- -- -- --
Rick,
great questions! Are you ready for this? You opened up one of my favorite subjects. Most of this you probably already know, but just in case..... ..... warning, this will be long!

-hip and elbow dysplasia, I have no hip dysplasia in my bloodlines, but I still screen for any kind of joint degeneration anyway. This is done with an xray to determine if there is any degeneration occurring. Lyric (mother to this litter) has this done yearly, her last xray came back looking great with no signs of displaysia or degeneration in her joints. She is 5 years old and actually should be showing a little wear at this point, but she isn't which makes my heart feel good. I begin this test at 2 years old in my dogs. Diesel (father to this litter) has not been in for an xray yet this year. He is 16 months old and will be going in when he is 24 months. My reasoning for this is that you will always get a "clear screen" (what doberman people call a bill of good health from the vet) at this age. I know my bloodlines and breed strong dogs that do not have a history of joint degeneration. Be careful when other breeders tell you their dogs got a clear screen, ask WHEN the last xray was taken. some breeders will do their health screening at very young ages when all their tests are guaranteed to run clear.... tricky tricky!

-von Willebrand disease (vWD)- Both Diesel and Lyric do not contain the gene for vWD and are clear. All of their puppies are clears also. I have had a few carriers in the past and have had to be very careful not to breed them to another carrier. vWD is very similar to hemophilia in humans and is only possible to get and affected when two carriers are bred together. It is quite rare to get an affected, and I know quite a few breeders that will breed carriers together and have never gotten an affected. I don't want to take those chances, it's a numbers game you play and eventually you will get an affected. I own three dobermans and all three are vWD clears. I will never own an affected again. I think more breeders should take this stance also so we can eliminate the vWD from dobermans completely.

-thyroid disease - hypothyroidism (HT) is an autoimmune disorder. ALL my dogs get tested for this before I even start their show career. So far I have never had a dog with hypothyroidism, it seems to be genetically passed on, but I have heard of cases where parents that where completely healthy have produced a dog with HT.

-genetic eye disease- There are many different kinds of inheritable eye diseases, incidences of these in dobermans are extremely low. My dogs get their eyes checked with their bi-yearly physical and always come back great. The big eye problem in dobermans is with the "white" doberman, they have blue eyes and are sensitive to light. They tend to go blind partway into life.

-dilated cardiac myopathy - ooo neat! You gave me the medical term! Most people just ask "is the heart good" This one is hard to test for. mostly it is based on symptoms, and a veterinarian will determine if a dog needs further testing by simply listening to the dogs heart before and after exercise. Dilated cardiomyopathy is a condition of an enlarged heart wich will cause all kinds of symptoms and early death in the dog. it can develop at any age, which sucks. I have had two rescue dobermans come through my estate with dilated cardiomyopathy. both had to be put down. dilated cardiomyopathy is another of the doberman disorders that seems to be hereditary. As far as I know none of the dogs in my dobies pedigrees has ever been diagnosed with this.

-normal liver function - a liver panel test is done every year on my dogs. an enzyme level is taken to determine if the liver is functioning correctly. Liver testing came about in Dobermans somewhat recently when quite a few dobermans where turning up with liver failure. most of these dobermans were related, so AGAIN this is another of the possible genetically passed down diseases. Lyric has a lower liver panel than I like, but my veterinarian thinks its because of being poisoned last year (long horrible story). Her panel is looking BETTER which means her liver is regenerating.

If you get Partiot, ALL of these are covered under my 2 year congenital health guarantee. I will refund or replace him if he is diagnosed with anything congenital. If I bred it into him, it's my fault and nobody should pay for my mistake. So far I haven't had a single genetic disease passed to any of my puppies. Odds are good that Patriot is completely healthy.

-do parents have any confirmation, obedience, working or temperament titles? Both parents have their CGC, Lyric has one major and 11 points towards her AKC conformation Championship (she lost a tooth chewing on a tennis ball and can no longer show confromation or else she would have easily finished her CH!) Lyric and Diesel both work with the Canine Read to Children program here in the elementary district once a week. Diesel has his CGC. Both dogs hopefully will be finishing up their CD this next summer and then we will work on their CDX. They haven't already recieved these to no fault of their own... their owner is busy with her kids and college and has had a hard time squeezing their training time in...

-do the parents come from lines with any Longevity Certification (LC) or Bread for Longevity (BFL) certification? the DPCA provides this, and I love it. I just haven't filled out the paperwork and sent the enormous fee they require to be put on the list. My dogs would be BFL, all dogs within 3 generations have lived past 10 years. Obviously patriots parents are still an unknown, but so far so good. I expect both to live well over 10 though. Most the dogs in my pedigrees live an average of 15 years.

-do the parents come from lines that are albino free? Yes, there is a list provided by AKC that you can check ANY registered doberman for this. It's called the Z LIST. It's still not determined whether the white doberman is a result of partial albinism or some other color masking gene. But it isn't good! Eye problems, health problems, TEMPERAMENT problems all come with the z-factor white doberman. You are smart to avoid this. I have met a few whites that are an exception to all the problems and are sweet as pie, but why take the chance?

-have the parents been temperament tested? I have never taken them in to another trainer for testing. They have their CGC so that they can participate in volunteer service work (canine read to children program mostly). And I have a strict temperament policy in my breeding program. I don't even tolerate food aggression. drives me nuts.

-have the parents completed a Working Aptitude Evaluation (WAE) - this is also provided by DPCA. I figured the CGC was harder for my dogs to get and the CGC also holds more prestige in the dog community than the WAE so why get both? I love DPCA though. That is a wonderful organization. I just get my certificates and awards directly through AKC.

Heather

-- -- --
"Dogs have given us their absolute all. We are the center of their universe, we are the focus of their love and faith and trust. They serve us in return for scraps. It is without a doubt the best deal man has ever made." - Roger Caras
-- -- --
RickC3C4 is offline  
post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 03:59 PM
Alpha
 
KateIndeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,637
Dogs Name: Rush (ACD/BC mix)
Dogs Age: Dec 2, 2011
Gallery Pics: 38
Visit KateIndeed's Gallery
Thanks: 3,916
Thanked 5,903 Times in 1,590 Posts
Images: 38
                     
nevermind, just didn't read that section. rofl.


If we make a choice to be the voice for those who won't speak up for themselves, how many lives would be saved, changed, rearranged?
KateIndeed is offline  
post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 04:01 PM
formerly eventermal
 
AuraDobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,498
Location: Texas
Dogs Name: Vixie (papillon), Perrin, Guilty, Abra
Titles: Perrin: CH CA DJ CGC WAC ; Guilty: CH CA CGC WAC; Abra: workin' on it!; Vixie: NA NAJ
Dogs Age: V 3/21/05, P 7/17/09, G 1/17/11, A 1/21/14
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit AuraDobe's Gallery
Thanks: 5,561
Thanked 7,504 Times in 2,320 Posts
                     
Send a message via AIM to AuraDobe
Move on. She does not healt test and there are many breeders in the area that do.


CH Treu's Star Witness v Touchstone CA CGC WAC Guilty
Aura's Zatanna Abra AKC ptd.
"Vixie" (Papillon) NA NAJ

Waiting at the Bridge
CH O's Godiva Signature CA DJ CGC WAC Perrin
AuraDobe is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to AuraDobe For This Useful Post:
bubsy (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-16-2010), hjgrl (09-15-2010)
post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 05:00 PM
Eschew Prolixity
 
melbrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 23,828
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Ori AKA Harold DogDog (Hairy Dog), RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Titles: DogDog Mouthe Extraordinaire; Kip Mr. Behavior; Capri Mis-Behavior
Dogs Age: DogDog 3 yrs?; RIP Kip 11 yrs; Capri 7 yrs; Katana 9 yrs; Caesar 13 yrs
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit melbrod's Gallery
Thanks: 78,800
Thanked 64,841 Times in 19,567 Posts
Images: 6
                     
Click here to find out how melbrod became a supporter
The hip stuff alone made me pause--she did not say the x-rays had been read by the certification folks, just that they "looked good". Who thinks they look good? And then she goes on to say the father of this litter is only 16 months--that means he was bred at, what, 14 months? He hasn't even had his hips tested--she said he would be tested at 2 years. In the meantime, he's way too young for the typical test to tell what his hips will look like as an adult, too young to get proper health testing for many ailments, and just too young to breed, period.

Aside from that, my personal reaction to all her, "Ooh, how smart you are to ask that question--most people don't know that!" comments was a little negative--seemed too sales pitchy to me. But I'm an obstinate customer when it comes to salesmen.

Many breeders have that "return your puppy for a new one" deal for bad health--I've never liked that one. I mean, really, who is going to return their year old dog if he develops a life threatening illness--your heart is all wrapped up in him! It would be like trading in one of your children (well, actually, there are times when I have contemplated that deal, but no one seemed willing to take them. LOL)

I think I'd keep looking--a service dog has to be special--wonderful temperament, sturdy conformation, good health leading to long life--you invest a lot of time, attention and love into a dog that you will depend on for so much--take your time making that choice.
melbrod is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to melbrod For This Useful Post:
bubsy (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-16-2010), Osirisdobermanns (09-15-2010), reddobes (09-15-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
Big Pup
 
RickC3C4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 39
Location: TX
Dogs Name: Castiel

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit RickC3C4's Gallery
Thanks: 10
Thanked 31 Times in 9 Posts
   
Thanks everyone you've given me a lot to think about. And don't worry, taking my time to make the right choice is exactly what I'm doing.

-- -- --
"Dogs have given us their absolute all. We are the center of their universe, we are the focus of their love and faith and trust. They serve us in return for scraps. It is without a doubt the best deal man has ever made." - Roger Caras
-- -- --
RickC3C4 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RickC3C4 For This Useful Post:
btrineer (09-16-2010), melbrod (09-15-2010)
post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 05:31 PM
Alpha
 
ShelianDobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,694
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Dogs Name: Wheeler, Spock, Fame, Whisper, Gritz
Titles: Wheeler - AKC GCH/UKC CH, RO3. Spock - AKC/UKC CH. Fame - AKC/UKC CH.
Dogs Age: Wheeler: 11/13/08 Spock: 07/10/13 Fame: 07/10/13
Gallery Pics: 17
Visit ShelianDobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,229
Thanked 13,642 Times in 3,455 Posts
Images: 17
                     
*Quote* Lyric has one major and 11 points towards her AKC conformation Championship (she lost a tooth chewing on a tennis ball and can no longer show conformation or else she would have easily finished her CH!) *Quote*

Not true. You wouldn't even need a note from a Vet since dog must be missing 4 teeth to be DQ'd. It certainly wouldn't stop me, or most anybody I know.


Shelly Wing
SHELIAN DOBERMANS
AKC GCH/UKC CH, RO3 Lyndobe's Wheel of Fortune, NTD "Wheeler" 2008-2020
AKC UKC CH Windsong's Fortune Hunter v Shelian, "Spock"
AKC UKC CH Windsong's Fame N Fortune v Shelian, "Fame"
AKC Ptd/UKC CH Shelian's Fifty Shades of Fame v Windsong, "Shade"
Shelian's A Thousand Words "Whisper"
Shelian's Words of Peace CGC BN CD RN "Olive"
Tolivar's Kiss My Gritz @Shelian v Irongate "Gritz"
www.sheliandobe.com
ShelianDobe is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to ShelianDobe For This Useful Post:
bubsy (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-16-2010), pattym (09-18-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 06:12 PM
Alpha
 
reddobes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,362

Gallery Pics: 9
Visit reddobes's Gallery
Thanks: 4,489
Thanked 5,306 Times in 1,725 Posts
Images: 9
                     
According to the AKC website, Mariah's Bianca Of Amon-Re ("Lyric", the dam of this litter according to the pedigree posted) has no points or titles. If a dog has competed in any AKC conformation shows, there will be a title/points progression list. This bitch has nothing listed.
this is what appears on AKC about her:
There is no available title progression summary information for this dog


For comparison, my bitch who was shown, but did not win any points (and is now spayed)
This is what appears on AKC about her titles & points

Conformation - Awards Processed Through 25-AUG-2010


CH
Number of Points 0
Number Major Wins 0
Number Major Judges 0
Total Number Judges 0


Neither parent appears on the OFA website. I'm not sure why someone be able to pay to xrays the hips every year, but not be willing to pay the $35 to send it in to OFA (so they would then have 3 board certified radiologists say the dog is free of hip dysplasia). And unless she's xrayed every dog in the pedigree and all siblings and all puppies produced, there is no way she can make a claim of having no hip dysplasia. It's easy to say you don't have a given health issue in your lines if you don't test for it.

Personally, I want to see PROOF of any health testing and or title claims.
And based on the info on the website and what she's responded with, IMO I would look elsewhere.


Last edited by reddobes; 09-15-2010 at 06:15 PM.
reddobes is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to reddobes For This Useful Post:
bubsy (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-16-2010), dobesmom (09-19-2010), DoodleDobe (09-15-2010), melbrod (09-15-2010), pattym (09-18-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010), sorthund (09-15-2010)
post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 06:30 PM
Alpha
 
ACarrigDobermans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,821
Location: Kentucky
Dogs Name: Stunner, Cherry, Prada, Cha Cha,Channa & Cookie Chihuahua
Titles: AKC, UKC, INt'l National, Canadian Champions, TDI,CGC, WAE, Serive Dog.

Gallery Pics: 10
Visit ACarrigDobermans's Gallery
Thanks: 3,413
Thanked 4,355 Times in 1,134 Posts
Images: 10
                     
Ok Ok I was not going to post anything but WHAT!!! The bitch has no titles, the stud dog humm pass not even gonna go thereThis lady is just breeding and what is up with her rehoming fee? 1500.00 for those puppies? COME ON! I just do not understand... Can someone explain to me I am for real! SIGHhhhhhhhh

[CENTER]
Michelle R. McGaha
A'Carrig Dobermans

Located in Northern, Kentucky
DPCA member, listed in the 2015 DPCA Breeder referral
AKC,Nat/Intl/UKC Champion A'Carrig N Gra-Lemor Bulgari Gold CGC, TDI, WAE, Certified Service Dog
U-Grand Ch, AKC Ch. A'Carrig N Gra-Lemor Satirical Sadar CA,CAA
AKC & UKC Grand Ch. A'Carrig N Sadar's Memoirs of a Heiress
(AKC Multi ptd)Canadian, UKC Ch.A'Carrig N Gra-Lemor Eskendereya
(AKC Multi ptd) Melrae's Sho Me The Designated Hitter
ACarrigDobermans is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to ACarrigDobermans For This Useful Post:
DoodleDobe (09-15-2010)
post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 06:40 PM
Alpha
 
reddobes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,362

Gallery Pics: 9
Visit reddobes's Gallery
Thanks: 4,489
Thanked 5,306 Times in 1,725 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickC3C4 View Post
My reasoning for this is that you will always get a "clear screen" (what doberman people call a bill of good health from the vet) at this age. I know my bloodlines and breed strong dogs that do not have a history of joint degeneration. Be careful when other breeders tell you their dogs got a clear screen, ask WHEN the last xray was taken. some breeders will do their health screening at very young ages when all their tests are guaranteed to run clear.... tricky tricky!



-dilated cardiac myopathy - ooo neat! You gave me the medical term! Most people just ask "is the heart good" This one is hard to test for. mostly it is based on symptoms, and a veterinarian will determine if a dog needs further testing by simply listening to the dogs heart before and after exercise. Dilated cardiomyopathy is a condition of an enlarged heart wich will cause all kinds of symptoms and early death in the dog. it can develop at any age, which sucks. I have had two rescue dobermans come through my estate with dilated cardiomyopathy. both had to be put down. dilated cardiomyopathy is another of the doberman disorders that seems to be hereditary. As far as I know none of the dogs in my dobies pedigrees has ever been diagnosed with this.

-normal liver function - a liver panel test is done every year on my dogs. an enzyme level is taken to determine if the liver is functioning correctly. Liver testing came about in Dobermans somewhat recently when quite a few dobermans where turning up with liver failure. most of these dobermans were related, so AGAIN this is another of the possible genetically passed down diseases. Lyric has a lower liver panel than I like, but my veterinarian thinks its because of being poisoned last year (long horrible story). Her panel is looking BETTER which means her liver is regenerating.

If you get Partiot, ALL of these are covered under my 2 year congenital health guarantee. I will refund or replace him if he is diagnosed with anything congenital. If I bred it into him, it's my fault and nobody should pay for my mistake. So far I haven't had a single genetic disease passed to any of my puppies. Odds are good that Patriot is completely healthy.

-do parents have any confirmation, obedience, working or temperament titles? Both parents have their CGC, Lyric has one major and 11 points towards her AKC conformation Championship (she lost a tooth chewing on a tennis ball and can no longer show confromation or else she would have easily finished her CH!) Lyric and Diesel both work with the Canine Read to Children program here in the elementary district once a week. Diesel has his CGC. Both dogs hopefully will be finishing up their CD this next summer and then we will work on their CDX. They haven't already recieved these to no fault of their own... their owner is busy with her kids and college and has had a hard time squeezing their training time in...

-do the parents come from lines with any Longevity Certification (LC) or Bread for Longevity (BFL) certification? the DPCA provides this, and I love it. I just haven't filled out the paperwork and sent the enormous fee they require to be put on the list. My dogs would be BFL, all dogs within 3 generations have lived past 10 years. Obviously patriots parents are still an unknown, but so far so good. I expect both to live well over 10 though. Most the dogs in my pedigrees live an average of 15 years.

-
Heather

There is a lot of misinformation in Heather's replies to the OP.
Young dogs can and DO get hip dysplasia. We do a lot of OFA films at our clinic. By far one of the worst hip films I have seen (ever in any age dog) was in a 2 1/2 yr old labrador bitch -- guess what? most of the dogs in her pedigree were never checked.
I've seen plenty of dypslastic or borderline dogs that are under 2 yrs of age. Hip films are very predicative of adult status - in fact, OFA will post preliminary results on dogs 12 mos or older.

DCM is not "hard to test for". It is tested for with holter monitor and echocardiogram. Simply ausculting (listening to) the heart, in no way rules out DCM.

I would be very wary getting a pup out of bitch that did not have completely normal liver values. CAH (chronic active hepatitis) actually affects females more commonly than males. Measuring liver enzymes is NOT some new procedure.


Since most of these issues are going to show up AFTER 2 years of age, a 2yr health guarantee doesn't really mean much

The info about the points on the dam of this litter was addressed in my previous post.

And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there is NO fee for the DPCA LC or BFL program.
DPCA Longevity Program | Frequently Asked Questions

Based on all the excuses and misinformation this woman has provided the OP, and the lack of titles/proof of health testing, she's not someone I would ever buy a dog from.

reddobes is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to reddobes For This Useful Post:
bubsy (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-16-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 06:46 PM
Sea Hag
 
Murreydobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,933

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Murreydobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,083
Thanked 34,687 Times in 7,941 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddobes View Post
According to the AKC website, Mariah's Bianca Of Amon-Re ("Lyric", the dam of this litter according to the pedigree posted) has no points or titles. If a dog has competed in any AKC conformation shows, there will be a title/points progression list. This bitch has nothing listed.
this is what appears on AKC about her:
There is no available title progression summary information for this dog


For comparison, my bitch who was shown, but did not win any points (and is now spayed)
This is what appears on AKC about her titles & points

Conformation - Awards Processed Through 25-AUG-2010


CH
Number of Points 0
Number Major Wins 0
Number Major Judges 0
Total Number Judges 0


.
To carry this further, here's Connor's point progression:

CH Foxfire-N Ko Simply Madness - WS19534202
Conformation - Awards Processed Through 25-AUG-2010
CH
Number of Points 15
Number Major Wins 3
Number Major Judges 3
Total Number Judges 5


As Reddobes said-the dam of this litter has never been shown in an AKC conformation show at all. If she had 11 points, 1 major, the points progression would say so, as Connor's demonstrates.

And it's absolute nonsense that a dog with a missing tooth can't be shown to a championship. There are top 20 dogs (champions) who have had more than 1 missing tooth. This is what the standard says: Disqualifying Faults: Overshot more than 3/16 of an inch. Undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth.




Last edited by Murreydobe; 09-15-2010 at 07:04 PM.
Murreydobe is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Murreydobe For This Useful Post:
bubsy (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-16-2010), pattym (09-18-2010), reddobes (09-15-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 07:00 PM
Sea Hag
 
Murreydobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,933

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Murreydobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,083
Thanked 34,687 Times in 7,941 Posts
                     
There's no charge to get a doberman a DPCA Longevity Certificate. Here's the online application, you'll see no payment information is required:

DPCA Longevity Program | Longevity Application

Who knows if the MISinformation (in so many areas) this greeder is spewing is through ignorance or just outright lies. In either case, I'd run fast and run far...you couldn't pay me enough to involve myself with them.



Murreydobe is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Murreydobe For This Useful Post:
Casandra (09-16-2010), reddobes (09-15-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 07:37 PM
Alpha
 
sorthund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,332
Location: WA

Gallery Pics: 23
Visit sorthund's Gallery
Thanks: 566
Thanked 1,108 Times in 591 Posts
Images: 23
                     
She's lying! Do you want to do business with someone who lies to you?
I wouldn't... Glad you came here with your questions. Look for another breeder.

Ch. Wingate She's A Rainbow CGC, RA, ROM "FiFi"
Ch. Sherluck's Time Has Come Today x Ch. Wingate's Friday Fiasco
7/18/2006 - 10/23/2013

GCh. Sherluck's Casablanca v Olympic Cove CGC "Bogart"
Ch. Foxfire's All Star x Ch. Tosca On Melrose

"FAILING TO PREPARE IS LIKE PREPARING TO FAIL"
Anonymous


http://www.olympiccovedobermans.com
sorthund is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to sorthund For This Useful Post:
annolyn (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-16-2010), DoodleDobe (09-15-2010), pattym (09-18-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 08:12 PM
Alpha
 
workingk9s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,870
Location: Nor Cal
Dogs Name: Ija, Dallas, Carson
Titles: Ija - UKC/UDC Ch., IPO1, WAC, CD
Dogs Age: Ija 10/2011
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit workingk9s's Gallery
Thanks: 5,975
Thanked 15,696 Times in 3,896 Posts
                     
I am going to put my comments in blue so I can comment in the middle. I am also going to bold some of the text to draw the eye to the context.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RickC3C4 View Post
Okay here's the e-mail I sent her and her response:
-- -- -- -- --
Heather,
Just because I'm curious can you tell me if you do any of the following health test on your dogs:
-hip and elbow dysplasia
-von Willebrand disease (vWD)
-thyroid disease
-genetic eye disease
-dilated cardiac myopathy
-normal liver function

Also can you tell me if:
the parents have any confirmation, obedience, working or temperament titles?

the parents come from lines with any Longevity Certification (LC) or Bread for Longevity (BFL) certification?

the parents come from lines that are albino free?

the parents been temperament tested?

the parents completed a Working Aptitude Evaluation (WAE)

thanks for indulging my curiosity,
Rick

-- -- -- -- --
Rick,
great questions! Are you ready for this? You opened up one of my favorite subjects. Most of this you probably already know, but just in case..... ..... warning, this will be long!

-hip and elbow dysplasia, I have no hip dysplasia in my bloodlines, but I still screen for any kind of joint degeneration anyway. This is done with an xray to determine if there is any degeneration occurring. Lyric (mother to this litter) has this done yearly, her last xray came back looking great with no signs of displaysia or degeneration in her joints. She is 5 years old and actually should be showing a little wear at this point, but she isn't which makes my heart feel good. I begin this test at 2 years old in my dogs. Diesel (father to this litter) has not been in for an xray yet this year. He is 16 months old and will be going in when he is 24 months. My reasoning for this is that you will always get a "clear screen" (what doberman people call a bill of good health from the vet) at this age. I know my bloodlines and breed strong dogs that do not have a history of joint degeneration. Be careful when other breeders tell you their dogs got a clear screen, ask WHEN the last xray was taken. some breeders will do their health screening at very young ages when all their tests are guaranteed to run clear.... tricky tricky!

Sigh... first off, unless she has all the siblings and all the dogs in the pedigree tested (officially through OFA or other registries), she cannot make this claim. Also, the sire is 16 months? WHat? That is a baby. He shouldn't be having puppies yet, no rush.

-von Willebrand disease (vWD)- Both Diesel and Lyric do not contain the gene for vWD and are clear. All of their puppies are clears also. I have had a few carriers in the past and have had to be very careful not to breed them to another carrier. vWD is very similar to hemophilia in humans and is only possible to get and affected when two carriers are bred together. It is quite rare to get an affected, and I know quite a few breeders that will breed carriers together and have never gotten an affected. I don't want to take those chances, it's a numbers game you play and eventually you will get an affected. I own three dobermans and all three are vWD clears. I will never own an affected again. I think more breeders should take this stance also so we can eliminate the vWD from dobermans completely.

I would get proof here as there are so many other weird things that I wouldn't be supprised if she had no idea how it works.

-thyroid disease - hypothyroidism (HT) is an autoimmune disorder. ALL my dogs get tested for this before I even start their show career. So far I have never had a dog with hypothyroidism, it seems to be genetically passed on, but I have heard of cases where parents that where completely healthy have produced a dog with HT.

-genetic eye disease- There are many different kinds of inheritable eye diseases, incidences of these in dobermans are extremely low. My dogs get their eyes checked with their bi-yearly physical and always come back great. The big eye problem in dobermans is with the "white" doberman, they have blue eyes and are sensitive to light. They tend to go blind partway into life.

She should have them CERF'd by an actual canine ophthomologist to make these claims. And there are some eye problems seen in Dobermans so the claim that they are extremely low isn't super accurate either.

-dilated cardiac myopathy - ooo neat! You gave me the medical term! Most people just ask "is the heart good" This one is hard to test for. mostly it is based on symptoms, and a veterinarian will determine if a dog needs further testing by simply listening to the dogs heart before and after exercise. Dilated cardiomyopathy is a condition of an enlarged heart wich will cause all kinds of symptoms and early death in the dog. it can develop at any age, which sucks. I have had two rescue dobermans come through my estate with dilated cardiomyopathy. both had to be put down. dilated cardiomyopathy is another of the doberman disorders that seems to be hereditary. As far as I know none of the dogs in my dobies pedigrees has ever been diagnosed with this.

This is just simply not true. Holter monitor of the heart and echos are a good test. A dog can pass these tests one year and die of DCM the next, but the tests are still a good tool.

-normal liver function - a liver panel test is done every year on my dogs. an enzyme level is taken to determine if the liver is functioning correctly. Liver testing came about in Dobermans somewhat recently when quite a few dobermans where turning up with liver failure. most of these dobermans were related, so AGAIN this is another of the possible genetically passed down diseases. Lyric has a lower liver panel than I like, but my veterinarian thinks its because of being poisoned last year (long horrible story). Her panel is looking BETTER which means her liver is regenerating.

If you get Partiot, ALL of these are covered under my 2 year congenital health guarantee. I will refund or replace him if he is diagnosed with anything congenital. If I bred it into him, it's my fault and nobody should pay for my mistake. So far I haven't had a single genetic disease passed to any of my puppies. Odds are good that Patriot is completely healthy.

-do parents have any confirmation, obedience, working or temperament titles? Both parents have their CGC, Lyric has one major and 11 points towards her AKC conformation Championship (she lost a tooth chewing on a tennis ball and can no longer show confromation or else she would have easily finished her CH!) Lyric and Diesel both work with the Canine Read to Children program here in the elementary district once a week. Diesel has his CGC. Both dogs hopefully will be finishing up their CD this next summer and then we will work on their CDX. They haven't already recieved these to no fault of their own... their owner is busy with her kids and college and has had a hard time squeezing their training time in...


-do the parents come from lines with any Longevity Certification (LC) or Bread for Longevity (BFL) certification? the DPCA provides this, and I love it. I just haven't filled out the paperwork and sent the enormous fee they require to be put on the list. My dogs would be BFL, all dogs within 3 generations have lived past 10 years. Obviously patriots parents are still an unknown, but so far so good. I expect both to live well over 10 though. Most the dogs in my pedigrees live an average of 15 years.

-do the parents come from lines that are albino free? Yes, there is a list provided by AKC that you can check ANY registered doberman for this. It's called the Z LIST. It's still not determined whether the white doberman is a result of partial albinism or some other color masking gene. But it isn't good! Eye problems, health problems, TEMPERAMENT problems all come with the z-factor white doberman. You are smart to avoid this. I have met a few whites that are an exception to all the problems and are sweet as pie, but why take the chance?

-have the parents been temperament tested? I have never taken them in to another trainer for testing. They have their CGC so that they can participate in volunteer service work (canine read to children program mostly). And I have a strict temperament policy in my breeding program. I don't even tolerate food aggression. drives me nuts.

-have the parents completed a Working Aptitude Evaluation (WAE) - this is also provided by DPCA. I figured the CGC was harder for my dogs to get and the CGC also holds more prestige in the dog community than the WAE so why get both? I love DPCA though. That is a wonderful organization. I just get my certificates and awards directly through AKC.

This is quite possibly the funniest lie I have heard in a looong time. Lol, I am an evaluator for the CGC and it is WAY easier than a WAC. Lol.

Heather
I would keep looking. Sounds like she isn't as knowledgeable as she sounds. Or, if she is, she is lying out her bum.


Erynn
workingk9s is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to workingk9s For This Useful Post:
annolyn (09-17-2010), Casandra (09-16-2010), DoodleDobe (09-15-2010), hjgrl (09-15-2010), pattym (09-18-2010), reddobes (09-15-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010), sorthund (09-15-2010)
post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 11:23 PM
Extraordimary
 
MaryAndDobes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,889
Location: Ontario, Canada
Dogs Name: Moxie, Copper & Wicca
Titles: Yes
Dogs Age: 12, 11 & 7
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit MaryAndDobes's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 16,757 Times in 3,280 Posts
                     
Her response sure was entertaining for anyone that actually does know what they're talking about. I'm just really sorry that she's trying to take advantage of you, RickC.

MaryAndDobes is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MaryAndDobes For This Useful Post:
bubsy (09-17-2010), Murreydobe (09-17-2010), RedFawnRising (09-16-2010)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome