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post #76 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 11:14 AM
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churchill, why are you continuously calling Charlie female? Do we actually know their gender? I thought male...

I've said it before... excelling at a sport does not mean "can participate". When you excel you are reaching the top tiers, not getting one or two ribbons or a novice title here and there. Not that novice titles aren't an accomplishment, hell, eventually I hope to be singing mine from the rooftops, but that's not "excelling".
Yes, my fawn girl Kylie, actually beat a few other dogs in the 24" novice classes (historically usually very few entries in that class), taking first with fastest time and no faults, BUT she could not ever "excel" because her conformation was so poor she couldn't hold up to the athletic rigors of the sport.

She was a spayed rescue, btw, FYI to Charlie845.

Many, many pet dogs, with the right handler and training, can piddle around in novice levels of some of these dogsport activities--but if one is producing puppies, one ought to be more interested in doing things right, not just rejecting accepted methods of evaluating the animals used for breeding, the progeny that results, and the long term success and health of all the animals in that breeding program.




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post #77 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 11:18 AM
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What I would like to see, is some discussion from those qualified to evaluate, of the actual quality breeders of Euro dogs here in the US. Because we do get a lot of inquiries and it would be nice to have a decent list to refer people to. I know the UDC directory is a place to start...those of you in the know, where else would you suggest? I generally don't like to suggest novice owners import, because that seems like a good way to get scammed. And if someone really likes Euro dogs, I also don't think that it's reasonable to suggest they only look at North American dogs, as that may lead them to Euro greeders.

So, back on topic...which Euro breeders are TITLING their dogs, doing complete health testing, etc.?


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post #78 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 11:22 AM
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post #79 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 11:27 AM
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post #80 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
What I would like to see, is some discussion from those qualified to evaluate, of the actual quality breeders of Euro dogs here in the US. Because we do get a lot of inquiries and it would be nice to have a decent list to refer people to. I know the UDC directory is a place to start...those of you in the know, where else would you suggest? I generally don't like to suggest novice owners import, because that seems like a good way to get scammed. And if someone really likes Euro dogs, I also don't think that it's reasonable to suggest they only look at North American dogs, as that may lead them to Euro greeders.

So, back on topic...which Euro breeders are TITLING their dogs, doing complete health testing, etc.?
I'd be very interested in this, too.

We have some random, sort of haphazard mentions around the forum, on about a gazillion various threads, but it would be nice to see a more cohesive list of suggestions, something that those who think they want a "Euro" could be pointed to, help them not land with the likes of Britton Farms, NY Dobermans, Super Dobermans, Family Dobes, or any of the other byb/greeder "Euro" types.




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post #81 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
What I would like to see, is some discussion from those qualified to evaluate, of the actual quality breeders of Euro dogs here in the US. Because we do get a lot of inquiries and it would be nice to have a decent list to refer people to. I know the UDC directory is a place to start...those of you in the know, where else would you suggest? I generally don't like to suggest novice owners import, because that seems like a good way to get scammed. And if someone really likes Euro dogs, I also don't think that it's reasonable to suggest they only look at North American dogs, as that may lead them to Euro greeders.

So, back on topic...which Euro breeders are TITLING their dogs, doing complete health testing, etc.?
This is what I, in my current state of Novice McNovice, found to be useful...

Not only checking UDC, but also shooting a PM to those who have dogs from euro breeders who are doing all the required health testing and titling to see who may not be listed but might have a good dog about to be bred for the first time or a stud dog owner that knows of a litter about to be born.

Going to trials and talking to people there will also let you know who has what litters when. Again this requires legwork for you to make sure that the people you're asking are good sources of information. Just because a dog can trial does not mean it should be bred.

And I asked everyone who I felt comfortable with how they felt about their breeder! Including other breeders who did not currently have a litter! I wanted to know who knew who. And because I made some very good friends, I got alerted to watch for certain dogs and certain people's litters as they did not know when they were going to happen but did know it would happen. BUT again... it is on you as the buyer to make sure you're making the right decision.

I have found that if the breeder starts spouting things like EUROS ARE ALWAYS BETTER or MY DOGS ARE WORKING DOGS BUT I DON'T NEED TO PROVE THEM WITH TITLES or anything like that, pass. Nuvet vitamins, pass. Tricky guarantee especially ones that are worded in a way that it's always your fault and any health issues that pop up after 2 aren't their fault (especially since most health issues... pop up later in life), pass. It's one thing to say something like, "American dogs aren't typically suitable for IPO and since I'm competing readily in IPO I have euro dogs" (which in some cases can be true) and another thing to say something like, "AMERICAN DOGS SUCK".

If you type "european doberman breeders" into Google, the first page is all BYBs and mills. Incredible is on the second page (and this thread, lmao). UDC on the third. Google will not help you with this.

There is also a project going on, but it does not have every euro breeder on it. The Working Doberman Breeders Project Could be helpful for new folks.

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post #82 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 12:29 PM
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besides the wobblers thing please tell me what health testing was not complete? Again that test was done - weather or not people think its accurate is a whole different discussion
Right off the top of my head Heart! Heart echo and 24 hour holter were not done. The PDK4 heart DNA test was done which as of now means absolutely nothing. Elbows for another. Of course I would have to look to see more, but again, we've been thru all this before but you keep acting like we haven't. You are just stirring up trouble!

Why don't you list the dog's name and health titles he's had that you speak of?

We've been thru all this before, yes, we have!!!

It's a shame people are listening to you, because you know do little but think you know it all. You actually remind me of another guy years back who acted similar to you named Larry. At least one other person will remember him on this board.

There are several euro breeder members these people should be reaching out to. People who actually know what they are talking about.

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post #83 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
What I would like to see, is some discussion from those qualified to evaluate, of the actual quality breeders of Euro dogs here in the US. Because we do get a lot of inquiries and it would be nice to have a decent list to refer people to. I know the UDC directory is a place to start...those of you in the know, where else would you suggest? I generally don't like to suggest novice owners import, because that seems like a good way to get scammed. And if someone really likes Euro dogs, I also don't think that it's reasonable to suggest they only look at North American dogs, as that may lead them to Euro greeders.

So, back on topic...which Euro breeders are TITLING their dogs, doing complete health testing, etc.?
The UDC breeders directory is a very decent list. There's no reason not to just direct people there, since it already contains the great majority of responsible, dedicated and committed breeders in the USA that work with European bloodlines. There are a whole bunch of breeders on the west coast that either 1. aren't listed in the breeders directory (and I'm not sure why - there is a stipulation that you must be a member of the UDC for at least five years before you are allowed entry into the directory, it's possible that some of these people do not meet the requirements - I'm thinking primarily of Luka and Landgraf Dobermans.
2. aren't UDC members for whatever political reason. Strangely enough those people tend to be on the west coast as well.

In my opinion the UDC breeders directory is really more than adequate and probably a great place to start and finish.

I guess there are also a few not listed because they probably feel they don't breed often enough. Checking the directory to see who is missing and the following would fall into that category

Rebholzer
Beja
Navistar
Chalmar
Renejade
BJF
Sue-Kelly Walsh, I think she breeds under the prefix "Desperado"

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post #84 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompuschk View Post
The UDC breeders directory is a very decent list. There's no reason not to just direct people there, since it already contains the great majority of responsible, dedicated and committed breeders in the USA that work with European bloodlines. There are a whole bunch of breeders on the west coast that either 1. aren't listed in the breeders directory (and I'm not sure why - there is a stipulation that you must be a member of the UDC for at least five years before you are allowed entry into the directory, it's possible that some of these people do not meet the requirements - I'm thinking primarily of Luka and Landgraf Dobermans.
2. aren't UDC members for whatever political reason. Strangely enough those people tend to be on the west coast as well.

In my opinion the UDC breeders directory is really more than adequate and probably a great place to start and finish.

I guess there are also a few not listed because they probably feel they don't breed often enough. Checking the directory to see who is missing and the following would fall into that category

Rebholzer
Beja
Navistar
Chalmar
Renejade
BJF
Thanks!

Actually, edited to ask a follow up question...we do see a fair number of folks looking for pets, not working dogs. Do you find there are a decent number of "pet" quality dogs coming out of these litters suited to the average pet owner? I know there's a fair bit of discussion about drive here, because we're looking at breeders specifically breeding working lines, not necessarily show lines, since Euro dogs don't do well in the American show ring. Can you comment on that at all?


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post #85 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by LindaH View Post
Right off the top of my head Heart! Heart echo and 24 hour holter were not done. The PDK4 heart DNA test was done which as of now means absolutely nothing. Elbows for another. Of course I would have to look to see more, but again, we've been thru all this before but you keep acting like we haven't. You are just stirring up trouble!

We've been thru all this before, yes, we have!!!
Lol! Oh have we ever.

"Kay" (8301? or whatever) comes to mind. Both Kay and Charlie... no time for trials, not even as a spectator; too busy with family... but lots of time to steer threads in a direction that puffs up Meghan the Holy First in Class Blue Ribbon Breeder Excellent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaH
There are several euro breeder members these people should be reaching out to. People who actually know what they are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post

So, back on topic...which Euro breeders are TITLING their dogs, doing complete health testing, etc.?
I think "Kansa" has been quite helpful over the years, to those just needing a little direction in getting started...

There are others, I will keep thinking...

ETA - Chalmar! That's the one I was trying to remember. The Biochem lady. Thanks Pompuschk!


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post #86 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Thanks!

Actually, edited to ask a follow up question...we do see a fair number of folks looking for pets, not working dogs. Do you find there are a decent number of "pet" quality dogs coming out of these litters suited to the average pet owner? I know there's a fair bit of discussion about drive here, because we're looking at breeders specifically breeding working lines, not necessarily show lines, since Euro dogs don't do well in the American show ring. Can you comment on that at all?
Something to note: Pontiffhaus is also not in the directory, same as Incredible, Zenhof, Kondorstrand, and a few others that have slipped my mind and have not yet been mentioned. I'll probably remember them just after the edit time limit is up.

To answer your question, I've seen a few Euro dogs from good breeders, breeders that ARE breeding for more drive, in pet homes. Maybe I'm just weird because I like active dogs, but they seemed just fine in a pet environment as long as they were given what they needed. For some dogs that means to be taken along on the morning jog. For others it means they needed weekly training classes to give their brains something to do their whole life, even if it's just trick training and nothing competitive. For others bouncing around in the yard was usually enough. A breeder should be able to gauge their puppies' temperaments to have a good guess at which puppies would be more suitable for pet homes than others. That said there are breeders out there who are breeding dogs that aren't livable inside of a home, but the majority of the breeders I have spoken to hate dogs like that.

I don't really consider any doberman home a "low-key" household, though. Even show dobes have energy and exercise and training requirements.

Something else to consider is that there are euro *show* lines and euro *work* lines (and I will probably get 5 PMs telling me that all euro lines are work lines because ipo blahblahblah). There are goods and bads of each. There are breeders in the States mixing between them but may be leaning more toward one than the other. I can usually tell visually the difference (it's all in the head! but some have tricked me) but because I am not out there working these dogs myself I could not tell you the working difference.

Since I lost my boy I have been inside households with mostly work, mostly show, good mix, pure work, pure show dogs as well as byb-brand-euro dogs (as well as amshow dogs and am-byb dogs)... the nervy dogs that could not calm down, that paced and barked, that were dogs you had to really watch what they were doing because they had an "on" switch you really did NOT want to activate... were the BYB dogs. I felt the Euro dogs were more loud-and-proud types with slightly stronger personalities. However that was a sample size of under 20 dogs and for less than a day each, so my scope is fairly limited.

I am a sport home but I still need a dog that if I'm having a sick day, it needs to be able to crash on the couch for a day or two while I recover without making me want to grab earplugs. This too was something that I mentioned to most of the breeders I spoke to and a few of them even brought up that they too wanted a dog that would be okay with a down day or two. These are not dogs that are gogogogogogoggogogoggogogo all the time.

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post #87 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 01:34 PM
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It might be because the social boundaries and damaging language tend to change radically over short periods of time, making it hard sometimes to keep up to date on them. There is a tendency towards oversensitivity to terminology. Watch me get flamed for this but here goes. In the last 60 years the "correct" term for a person of color (black) has gone from Negro, Colored, Black to African American. Which one of these is damaging language? This really is BS and totally off topic.
Oops, didn't mean to thank this and get involved in this discussion.

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post #88 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 02:09 PM
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Something to note: Pontiffhaus is also not in the directory, same as Incredible, Zenhof, Kondorstrand, and a few others that have slipped my mind and have not yet been mentioned. I'll probably remember them just after the edit time limit is up.

To answer your question, I've seen a few Euro dogs from good breeders, breeders that ARE breeding for more drive, in pet homes. Maybe I'm just weird because I like active dogs, but they seemed just fine in a pet environment as long as they were given what they needed. For some dogs that means to be taken along on the morning jog. For others it means they needed weekly training classes to give their brains something to do their whole life, even if it's just trick training and nothing competitive. For others bouncing around in the yard was usually enough. A breeder should be able to gauge their puppies' temperaments to have a good guess at which puppies would be more suitable for pet homes than others. That said there are breeders out there who are breeding dogs that aren't livable inside of a home, but the majority of the breeders I have spoken to hate dogs like that.

I don't really consider any doberman home a "low-key" household, though. Even show dobes have energy and exercise and training requirements.

Something else to consider is that there are euro *show* lines and euro *work* lines (and I will probably get 5 PMs telling me that all euro lines are work lines because ipo blahblahblah). There are goods and bads of each. There are breeders in the States mixing between them but may be leaning more toward one than the other. I can usually tell visually the difference (it's all in the head! but some have tricked me) but because I am not out there working these dogs myself I could not tell you the working difference.

Since I lost my boy I have been inside households with mostly work, mostly show, good mix, pure work, pure show dogs as well as byb-brand-euro dogs (as well as amshow dogs and am-byb dogs)... the nervy dogs that could not calm down, that paced and barked, that were dogs you had to really watch what they were doing because they had an "on" switch you really did NOT want to activate... were the BYB dogs. I felt the Euro dogs were more loud-and-proud types with slightly stronger personalities. However that was a sample size of under 20 dogs and for less than a day each, so my scope is fairly limited.

I am a sport home but I still need a dog that if I'm having a sick day, it needs to be able to crash on the couch for a day or two while I recover without making me want to grab earplugs. This too was something that I mentioned to most of the breeders I spoke to and a few of them even brought up that they too wanted a dog that would be okay with a down day or two. These are not dogs that are gogogogogogoggogogoggogogo all the time.
Great post and very informative.

I own Gino imported from Europe (show lines) and Asha bred in Canada from European lines (show/working lines). They both have strong personalities and good drive but they are not dogs "that are gogogogogogoggogogoggogogo all the time". They may crash on the couch for hours and become non-existent. Definitely they need long walks and super active games.
My NA boy was super active too... honestly I don't see a huge difference. Dogs are reflection of their owners I think.


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post #89 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 02:17 PM
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A little off-topic... find out what dog reflects your personality type. It explains why so much agruments are going on here. Doberman owners are most likely martians "soldiers for their cause" LOL

Does Your Pet Reflect Your Personality Type? | Personality Predictors


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post #90 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 02:23 PM
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lmao, as I thought, the PMs I said I was going to get have started to trickle in. Oy vey. I wonder if they realized that PMing people like that is what turned me off of that breeder in the first place...

I don't know the situation in Canada, outside of knowing that you guys have your share of crappy breeders too. So I can't speak for our Canadian members outside of importing a dog into your country from here if you are near enough to the border.

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post #91 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 05:08 PM
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Adlercrest hadn't been mentioned. They have been around s long time.

There are two in Kentucky I've been having trouble remembering their names.

Masaya and Swift Run

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post #92 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 05:32 PM
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Masaya and Swift Run are already on the UDC directory. I'm trying to think of the good breeders I know about that are not on it, that are still breeding.

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post #93 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
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I don't know the situation in Canada, outside of knowing that you guys have your share of crappy breeders too. So I can't speak for our Canadian members outside of importing a dog into your country from here if you are near enough to the border.
I will start the list of good breeders in Canada who breeds from European lines

Dobereich
Di Ravallese
Gatehouse

Please add more...


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post #94 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 03:49 AM
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There are some breeders mentioned, whose practices I have some concerns about, especially in light of what is happening in Europe right now with working lines. I spent hours with Elaine Brown while I was in Germany going over pedigrees and looking at what people are trying to do. I consider her one of the most knowledgeable persons in the breed, in regards to pedigrees of Euro show lines, working lines and older NA show lines.

We discovered that a number of established working breeders are scrambling to find combinations which are as much of an out-cross as possible. Even if this means breeding to dogs which serious working people would consider "club level" dogs (dogs which are capable of titling to maybe an IPO3, but would not be expected to be successful at higher levels).

I got in touch with my breeder, she had only one reply when I asked for suggestions for breeding "find an out-cross".

Some famous people in the breed are probably most of the way out of the breed, switching to Malinois. This includes Marco Comelli of Burgstatte. If you have a Burgstatte dog (as I do), it is extremely difficult to find a mating because some of his litters had a inbreeding co-efficiency rating of up to 30%. Throw in a couple of health issues with this tight of a breeding and it is the type of thing that has caused us to be where we are at in terms of health considerations and limited breeding options if working viability is paramount.

While at the IDC I spent a lot of time with Kathryn from Warringhof Kennel (a very well established working line kennel in Germany). She is another person who has an outstanding level of knowledge of Euro lines. It seemed nearly every time I asked about a dog I liked, she would say, "Too much Burgstatte for you to use". The number one and two dogs at the IDC Weltmeisterschaft shared half of the pedigree with Cairo.

All of this is because the gene pool is so small, that line breeding on dogs that have turned out to have significant health problems has created a situation where there is no where to go. When working line breeders will not consider out-cross breeding but stick to the old mainstays, Mooreiche and Weyermuhler then the problem is only going to get worse.

Two of the dogs that were my leading candidates, and not close line-breeding) are direct progeny of a very popular litter which it turns out much of the litter died of DCM. Some of the progeny of this litter have also died. One of this particular litter was a very good working dog, who was used very much in Europe. He also died of DCM.

I initially crossed off many dogs as a possibility for breeding because they are VwD carriers, as is my bitch Cairo. If I want to breed a dog with viable working ability it may come to that. I also have to think of the future of the breed. There are a few dogs which I consider great dogs, but I don't think would be a good match in breeding because I don't think the temperaments line up well. Another consideration is that great dogs tend to get used too much some times, even if it is not the best match..this is probably one of the leading causes of nerve issues, which is kiss of death for working dogs.

Many North American dogs will make great pets for the average home. Personally, as a serious working person I would not consider them because they do not have enough nerve (or often enough working drive, which is different than energy level as described in an above post) to excel, or often even pass a proper IPO test.

There is one working dog in North America which is advertised at stud, whose sire died of DCM during a critique following his routine at the Deutsch Meisterschaft in front of a several thousand people.

In the Euro show lines, the above scenarios can be repeated over and over again. This is especially true with some of the Eastern European lines. However there may be more hope there because there are more options for breeding.

I can guess that most people are not going to take these considerations to this level.

In my opinion the main reason to consider a "European Doberman" is working ability in bite sports. Some of the breeders which are touted here as "good breeders" do not title their dogs in bite sports. In some of the cases if they are titled it is at a club level under very favorable conditions. In many cases this is not much of a test. This scenario is very common in European show line dogs. Also if a breeder titles in bites sport less than 20% of the dogs they have bred over the past decade they are not what I would consider a working breeder. A BH is not considered a title among serious working people.
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post #95 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 04:12 AM
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Thanks for sharing Rosamburg, such interesting thoughts, I'm glad you had time to spend with some great breeders while in Europe.


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post #96 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 08:57 AM
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I am a bit confused... do we discuss breeders who uses European lines or working breeders?


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post #97 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 09:49 AM
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There are a few Euro breeders listed above that I wouldn't recommend ever.

With working line breeders, I still want to see conformation titles on them. They should still be bred to standard.



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post #98 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 10:01 AM
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I am a bit confused... do we discuss breeders who uses European lines or working breeders?
I think both are fine, DV.


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post #99 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 10:48 AM
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Jazi, I wasn't posting to you. Guess I should have linked, but I was adding to the list above. I have no idea who is. UDC member and who isn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
There are some breeders mentioned, whose practices I have some concerns about, especially in light of what is happening in Europe right now with working lines. I spent hours with Elaine Brown while I was in Germany going over pedigrees and looking at what people are trying to do. I consider her one of the most knowledgeable persons in the breed, in regards to pedigrees of Euro show lines, working lines and older NA show lines.

We discovered that a number of established working breeders are scrambling to find combinations which are as much of an out-cross as possible. Even if this means breeding to dogs which serious working people would consider "club level" dogs (dogs which are capable of titling to maybe an IPO3, but would not be expected to be successful at higher levels).

I got in touch with my breeder, she had only one reply when I asked for suggestions for breeding "find an out-cross".

Some famous people in the breed are probably most of the way out of the breed, switching to Malinois. This includes Marco Comelli of Burgstatte. If you have a Burgstatte dog (as I do), it is extremely difficult to find a mating because some of his litters had a inbreeding co-efficiency rating of up to 30%. Throw in a couple of health issues with this tight of a breeding and it is the type of thing that has caused us to be where we are at in terms of health considerations and limited breeding options if working viability is paramount.

While at the IDC I spent a lot of time with Kathryn from Warringhof Kennel (a very well established working line kennel in Germany). She is another person who has an outstanding level of knowledge of Euro lines. It seemed nearly every time I asked about a dog I liked, she would say, "Too much Burgstatte for you to use". The number one and two dogs at the IDC Weltmeisterschaft shared half of the pedigree with Cairo.

All of this is because the gene pool is so small, that line breeding on dogs that have turned out to have significant health problems has created a situation where there is no where to go. When working line breeders will not consider out-cross breeding but stick to the old mainstays, Mooreiche and Weyermuhler then the problem is only going to get worse.

Two of the dogs that were my leading candidates, and not close line-breeding) are direct progeny of a very popular litter which it turns out much of the litter died of DCM. Some of the progeny of this litter have also died. One of this particular litter was a very good working dog, who was used very much in Europe. He also died of DCM.

I initially crossed off many dogs as a possibility for breeding because they are VwD carriers, as is my bitch Cairo. If I want to breed a dog with viable working ability it may come to that. I also have to think of the future of the breed. There are a few dogs which I consider great dogs, but I don't think would be a good match in breeding because I don't think the temperaments line up well. Another consideration is that great dogs tend to get used too much some times, even if it is not the best match..this is probably one of the leading causes of nerve issues, which is kiss of death for working dogs.

Many North American dogs will make great pets for the average home. Personally, as a serious working person I would not consider them because they do not have enough nerve (or often enough working drive, which is different than energy level as described in an above post) to excel, or often even pass a proper IPO test.

There is one working dog in North America which is advertised at stud, whose sire died of DCM during a critique following his routine at the Deutsch Meisterschaft in front of a several thousand people.

In the Euro show lines, the above scenarios can be repeated over and over again. This is especially true with some of the Eastern European lines. However there may be more hope there because there are more options for breeding.

I can guess that most people are not going to take these considerations to this level.

In my opinion the main reason to consider a "European Doberman" is working ability in bite sports. Some of the breeders which are touted here as "good breeders" do not title their dogs in bite sports. In some of the cases if they are titled it is at a club level under very favorable conditions. In many cases this is not much of a test. This scenario is very common in European show line dogs. Also if a breeder titles in bites sport less than 20% of the dogs they have bred over the past decade they are not what I would consider a working breeder. A BH is not considered a title among serious working people.

Thank you greatly for the info, Steve.

So what breeders here in the USA would you recommend.

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post #100 of 162 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 10:58 AM
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Cara dobes , Feverhaus and Masaya dobermans are 3 great breeders. A few others are Bell' lavoro , Wittrock and Kansa dobermans.

I hope someone can give some insight on these breeders


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