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post #1 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:19 PM Thread Starter
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Analyzing a Kimbertal Pedigree

So, forgive my low tech ways, I need to link to this pedigree, but if someone more talented than I wants to put up an image of it, for easier reference, that would be great.

The pedigree I'd like to discuss is here, for the puppies sired by "International Champion Imperator Iran di Altobello."

Recently, we had a claim made that the ancestors of this particular litter were "100% champions."

So, what I'd like to do is take novices through an easy explanation of how that may or may not be necessarily true.

Since I'm very unfamiliar with Euro titles, I'm hoping some of our folks across the pond who work and show in Euro venues will chime in on some of these so-called "titles" and on the legitimate titles.

First, though, I want to call Kimbertal out on what seems to be VERY misleading to puppy buyers: Why do you post only the sire's half of the pedigree under each puppy?

Why?

For those dazzled by Kimbertal, take another look at that scanned image: that is only the ancestry of the sire of each litter, not the dam.

Did the female not contribute 50% of the genetic material for each puppy?

Why are you, Kimbertal, not disclosing the ancestry of the mother under each puppy's picture?

Moving on to another available litter, I see this one is sired by "Champion Apollo Royal Castelberg."

Now, the posted pedigree for this sire is the dog, Sant Kreal Tsenturion, whose titles were called into question here on DT, before, and SOME corrections made to his page, by Kimbertal, following that.

But here is a question: Since Kimbertal reportedly does not show, work, or title their own animals, and since "Champion Apollo Royal Castelberg" is sired by their imported stud and a totally untitled bitch...how did "Apollo" become a "Champion"?

What sort of "Champion"? In what venue? On what continent?

Euro folks, can you help me out with the other titles?

I'd like us to go thru at least a few generations on the listed pedigrees and explain why or why not the "hype" means anything, for the novices.

I truly think they don't understand why the really knowledgeable Doberman folks laugh up their sleeves at Kimbertal--not saying that's nice or right, it's just a fact that the folks who have really competitive, athletic, good dogs would not look twice at anything of Kimbertal lines.

I'd like the novices to get a feel for WHY, and more importantly, how that relates to the quality of a pet they might purchase, and to the breed overall.




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post #2 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:27 PM
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Here you go - current stud pedigrees

Iran


Apollo


Patrick


Elis


Dankan

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post #3 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
For those dazzled by Kimbertal, take another look at that scanned image: that is only the ancestry of the sire of each litter, not the dam.

Did the female not contribute 50% of the genetic material for each puppy?

Why are you, Kimbertal, not disclosing the ancestry of the mother under each puppy's picture?
Now I am definetly a novice at reading these things, but I swear it looks like I am reading sire and dame... Correct me if I am wrong...

Going off Tnh first pedigree of Iran, granted not all are CH, but I see 2 names then 4 names then 8 and 16?

Lost I am....

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post #4 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Tnh, you rock, thanks.

Jonesy, you are seeing the sire and dam of the SIRE of each litter of puppies.

So, that is papa's pedigree.

The mama's pedigree isn't listed anywhere that I can find, on Kimbertal's site, nor even the NAME of the dam.




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post #5 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
Now I am definetly a novice at reading these things, but I swear it looks like I am reading sire and dame... Correct me if I am wrong...

Going off Tnh first pedigree of Iran, granted not all are CH, but I see 2 names then 4 names then 8 and 16?

Lost I am....
The pedigrees I posted are for the studs only to help with the clarification on the titles.

The link RFR posted that is the page where they advertise the puppies. If you look closely you will notice they only advertise the sire's portion of the pedigree.

As I've posted before the reason for this is because they import males (often second hand and not directly from the breeders) and then they breed them to just about every brood bitch in their kennels and in their breeder homes. I would assume this marketing ploy benefits them in multiple ways 1) I'm guessing many of the bitch's pedigrees are less than stellar 2) they could have 10 litters on the ground out of 1 stud but they can advertise it as 1 litter.

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Last edited by tnh317; 07-27-2010 at 02:42 PM.
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post #6 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
Now I am definetly a novice at reading these things, but I swear it looks like I am reading sire and dame... Correct me if I am wrong...

Going off Tnh first pedigree of Iran, granted not all are CH, but I see 2 names then 4 names then 8 and 16?

Lost I am....
The pedigrees shown are the complete pedigrees for the sires of Kimbertal litters. RFR was commenting on the complete lack of pedigrees for the bitches that are being used to pop out these hundreds of puppies each year. Kimbertal advertises their stud dogs, but they do not disclose any info about the dams when they are just as important to the outcome of the litter. The are, after all, contributing 50% of the genetic material required.

I guarantee if they were using bitches that looked like they were worth a grain of salt on paper, their pedigrees would be plastered on the website for all to see. I wouldn't expect to be getting a puppy from any Mary Hartman-esque bitch, that's for sure.

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post #7 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:43 PM
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I am not trying to support these guys I really am curious about reading these things I understand that those are all the sires

but this is one of Irans pups, and it looks like both are listed as well?
Or are you talking about that the pups show sire and dam, but no where on the site shows mom's pedigree?

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post #8 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:44 PM
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Wow, I got beat not once, but twice!

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post #9 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr View Post
The pedigrees shown are the complete pedigrees for the sires of Kimbertal litters. RFR was commenting on the complete lack of pedigrees for the bitches that are being used to pop out these hundreds of puppies each year. Kimbertal advertises their stud dogs, but they do not disclose any info about the dams when they are just as important to the outcome of the litter. The are, after all, contributing 50% of the genetic material required.

I guarantee if they were using bitches that looked like they were worth a grain of salt on paper, their pedigrees would be plastered on the website for all to see. I wouldn't expect to be getting a puppy from any Mary Hartman-esque bitch, that's for sure.
See this makes sense I get it... Its not that the Dam isn't listed its that the pedigree for said dam is no where to be found right?

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post #10 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
I am not trying to support these guys I really am curious about reading these things I understand that those are all the sires

but this is one of Irans pups, and it looks like both are listed as well?
Or are you talking about that the pups show sire and dam, but no where on the site shows mom's pedigree?
If you look at the pedigree shown under the puppy, it's an exact replica of Iran's pedigree. It has no information about the puppy's dam, only Iran's.

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post #11 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:46 PM
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I've never been to their site before and I find it intersting that even thogh they have a "guarantee" it does not cover any puppies that have been spayed or neutered.

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post #12 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr View Post
If you look at the pedigree shown under the puppy, it's an exact replica of Iran's pedigree. It has no information about the puppy's dam, only Iran's.
Those sneaky bastards... if you wouldn't have said anything I would have just assumed that that was the pups pedigree not the sires

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post #13 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
Those sneaky bastards... if you wouldn't have said anything I would have just assumed that that was the pups pedigree not the sires
I'm sure that's exactly what a lot of unsuspecting buyers do. People think they're getting a puppy from a long line of "champions," but they don't even know half of what they're purchasing. Most probably don't know the slightest bit about all of the titles or abbreviations listed on the pedigrees either.

For all they know, some of the letters could actually mean something as absurd as "severe hip dysplasia," but they'd be bragging to their buddies that some of the dogs in their puppy's family tree have a SHD title.

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post #14 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:51 PM
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Also, I love what comes up when you google their studs names.

For example:

Pierce Patrick
Ebay Classifieds
Super Dobermans
Britton Farms
Tennessee Cowgirl
Black Iron warrior
Heather's House of Dobes
Aruff Ranch

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post #15 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
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See this makes sense I get it... Its not that the Dam isn't listed its that the pedigree for said dam is no where to be found right?
I didn't take your questions as "supporting" them, no worries. I want novices to ask questions on this thread, that's why I started it.


And no, to answer this question, the dam is not even listed.

It's like the poor bitches who are whelping litter after litter after litter don't even exist, according to Kimbertal.

They just put up pictures of puppies--lying down, I might add, so there is no way to get a look at the angles of the joints or their overall conformation, and then they list the sire, and put the sire's pedigree.

That is NOT the pedigree of the pictured puppy.

The pedigree of the pictured puppy would have 50% more information--in other words, it would have Mama and all her ancestors listed.

We could speculate all day as to why Kimbertal does not list the brood bitches' contribution to the genetics, but I'd like THEM to give an answer. I bet they've thought one up, I do.

I myself suspect it has to do with what's already been mentioned. If the other half of these pups' pedigrees were brag-worthy in any way, shape or form, Kimbertal would be blasting that all over the 'net.

And we haven't even addressed yet analyzing the pedigree for health and longevity--just as to whether all the "great bloodlines" hype holds water.

Again, we'd need the other half of the litters' pedigrees, just to begin on anything.




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post #16 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr View Post
I'm sure that's exactly what a lot of unsuspecting buyers do. People think they're getting a puppy from a long line of "champions," but they don't even know half of what they're purchasing. Most probably don't know the slightest bit about all of the titles or abbreviations listed on the pedigrees either.

For all they know, some of the letters could actually mean something as absurd as "severe hip dysplasia," but they'd be bragging to their buddies that some of the dogs in their puppy's family tree have a SHD title.
Oh that would be me, I know a lot of the titles, however I am still learning when it comes to certain titles...

But I could see myself saying my pup has a SHD title without knowing.... *FACE PALM*

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post #17 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
See this makes sense I get it... Its not that the Dam isn't listed its that the pedigree for said dam is no where to be found right?
Where do you see the dam listed?

I see the sire listed above the puppy picture. The pedigree below the puppy must be the sire's as the sire is not the "parent" in that pedigree.


They charge $3000 for a pup???!? With as many litters as I think Murrey listed in the other thread, and without health testing or titling their dogs, they must be ROLLING in it. (Money, that is.)

And all of those puppies get lots of socialization in the home, huh? Yeah, sure.


Edit: sorry, many posts were made as I was typing. Slowly. LOL.


Edit #2- it was MaryandDobes, not Murrey. Here's the post I was thinking of showing the hundreds and hundreds of dogs found on their property by survey
https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman...tml#post731035


*puke*

Erica



Last edited by bean; 07-27-2010 at 03:09 PM.
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post #18 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 03:03 PM
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Going tru the pedigrees, its only showing european show lines, no working titles, may be they put a certificate on it, but none of these we ever saw on trials, there is some dutch in it, 'd Aracelli, beautiful dogs, but not for sport, the man's who have this kennel don't breed any more, the kennel was close to my place, they lived in rotterdam. Wantij also dutch, Jivago is in lot of pedigrees, I have owned a Jivago son. Neerlands stam a dutch kennel as well.

I saw prices of 2500 usd, well that is a lot of money, I think you can buy these lines much cheeper, included shipping cost here in Europe

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post #19 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 03:04 PM
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Let's continue the google game shall we...

Elisir Dax di Altobello

Braveheart
The Roadhouse
Aruff Ranch
IdleWild
Triple C
DVR Kennels
K-Nine Dobermans
Ebay Classifieds
3B Dobermans
Super Dobie Pups

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post #20 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
Oh that would be me, I know a lot of the titles, however I am still learning when it comes to certain titles...

But I could see myself saying my pup has a SHD title without knowing.... *FACE PALM*

Haha. Don't worry! I don't know what every single title and abbreviation is either, but you better believe I'd look up what the titles mean and how difficult they are to obtain before I even thought about purchasing a puppy.

What really blows my mind is that people seem to think $2500-3000 is a legitimate price for these puppies. That is the most mind-boggling aspect to me. If you like the Euro look more than the NA look, like Elly said, you can get a puppy directly from a Euro breeder including shipping. At least then you can pick and choose from which lines you want your puppy to come, you can study the longevity of the other dogs in the pedigree (on both the sire AND dam's sides), etc. You can certainly get a pup from a highly respectable breeder in the States for far less than $2500 a pop with far more health testing, socialization, and breeder support.

For example, my new little redhead cost significantly less than $2500, has an outstanding pedigree, and comes from pretty healthy lines.


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post #21 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elly View Post
Going tru the pedigrees, its only showing european show lines, no working titles, may be they put a certificate on it, but none of these we ever saw on trials, there is some dutch in it, 'd Aracelli, beautiful dogs, but not for sport, the man's who have this kennel don't breed any more, the kennel was close to my place, they lived in rotterdam. Wantij also dutch, Jivago is in lot of pedigrees, I have owned a Jivago son. Neerlands stam a dutch kennel as well.

I saw prices of 2500 usd, well that is a lot of money, I think you can buy these lines much sheeper, included shipping cost here in Europe
Elly, thank you. I'm really glad to see you here, and chiming in.

Keeping in mind that I'm trying to get a message across to complete novices (who are mostly what Kimbertal sells to), can you take a couple of Iran's parents, and go over what the "lettters" after their names mean?

And why some of it is meaningless?

Like, for instance, I know it's been said nearly any dog can earn the "Int. Ch." title, in one weekend, it can just sort of "be bought" by sending the dog in with a handler.

I'm wondering if, among all the other Alphabet Soup, there are other "bogus" titles listed on his pedigree.

The reason, in case some are missing it, that tnh317 is posting all these google hits is these are rather infamous and disreputable breeders, who display poor behavior and ethics when it comes to breeding programs, and they are all backed/originated/associated with Kimbertal lines.




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post #22 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Again, we'd need the other half of the litters' pedigrees, just to begin on anything.
They are easy enough to find though. If you check some of the links I posted (I know it's like a who's who of back yard breeders) you will see many of what I like to call Kimbertal franchises. They end up posting the other half of the pedigrees when advertising their own litters for sale.

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post #23 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr View Post
At least then you can pick and choose from which lines you want your puppy to come, you can study the longevity of the other dogs in the pedigree (on both the sire AND dam's sides), etc. You can certainly get a pup from a highly respectable breeder in the States for far less than $2500 a pop with far more health testing, socialization, and breeder support.
Wait, so you're saying that to maximize your odds of getting a healthy, long-lived, stable puppy, you should be looking at longevity of BOTH parents, health testing of BOTH parents, temperament of BOTH parents, socialization and breeder support?

Huh.

Why didn't anyone ever tell me that before on this forum???

You guys are so hush-hush about these things.

Erica


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post #24 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
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If you like the Euro look more than the NA look, like Elly said, you can get a puppy directly from a Euro breeder including shipping.
Or you can beat them to the punch and shop this site for your very own champion pedigreed Euro stud dog. Pierce Patrick was listed for sale there.

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post #25 of 228 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 03:22 PM
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Thanks Redfawnrising for starting this thread - quite informative and very eye opening! I hope others are taking notice to this information!

Melinda

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MBIS MBISS GCH Tiburon Ariel Bella Dona "Bella"
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