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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 06:29 PM Thread Starter
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Von Hy Ty?

So after digging around and finally biting the bullet, I bought the pedigrees for both my dog's sire and dam... and found that the majority of both bloodlines was from a Von Hy Ty line.

I guess the breeders name is Peggy Davis, in NC... I did quick search on here and apparently she's the "black" doberman breeder. Greeeeat. It explains Duke's darker coloring on his face and toes. I definitely didn't do enough research when getting Duke.



And here are some of her pics of her black "dobes"









Based on the other breed she has interest in... giant schnauzers, I think that's where she's getting the black coloring from.

Duke the spider hunter.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 06:39 PM
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Interesting!
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 06:44 PM
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That's crazy! I've never seen an all black dobe before, thanks for sharing. So do you think she is mixing schnauzer blood in there, or just goes for darker dobes because she likes the black of the schnazuers?
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 06:51 PM
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Here is another thread about this breeder > https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...dobermans.html


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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annolyn View Post
That's crazy! I've never seen an all black dobe before, thanks for sharing. So do you think she is mixing schnauzer blood in there, or just goes for darker dobes because she likes the black of the schnazuers?
Not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me... just seems odd that she breeds both breeds and somehow she got the coloration of one breed to appear in the other breed. No way of know short of genetic testing I suppose.

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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Maggymay View Post
Not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me... just seems odd that she breeds both breeds and somehow she got the coloration of one breed to appear in the other breed. No way of know short of genetic testing I suppose.
This was discussed about in the other thread that the link was posted to. It happens to be a genetic mutation (exact opposite of albinism) that instead of the lack of melenin (albinism) there is a gross over-production of it that creates these "all black" dobes. I thought it was fascinating.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 10:48 PM
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-09-2010, 04:09 PM
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I hate to admit it since it's an incorrect color & muddy dark markings bug me but all black gives me pause.
I've also seen dobe/lab mixes on petfinder-the ones with more doberman type heads have always caught my eye.

that said I hope before I die I can have another black and TAN, tan seeming not so common anymore. Makes me sad.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-09-2010, 06:44 PM
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I hate to say it but I think that puppy is SUPER cute.
Not for a doberman, but if there was a specific breed that looked like that... I'd be a fan.
Do dobes affected with melinism have any known problems like those with albinism?


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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-09-2010, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lena&Kilo View Post
I hate to say it but I think that puppy is SUPER cute.
Not for a doberman, but if there was a specific breed that looked like that... I'd be a fan.
Do dobes affected with melinism have any known problems like those with albinism?
Based on wikipedia:

Quote:
Melanism related to the process of adaptation is called adaptive. Most commonly, dark individuals become fitter to survive and reproduce in their environment as they are better camouflaged. This makes some species less conspicuous to predators[2] while others use it as a foraging advantage (for example during night hunting).[3] Typically adaptive melanism is heritable: A dominant gene (which is entirely or nearly entirely expressed in the phenotype) is responsible for the excessive amount of melanin.[4] Adaptive melanism has been shown to occur in a variety of animals, including mammals (squirrels, many felines, many canids), reptiles (coral snakes) and insects (peppered moth).

Many examples of melanism are known among felines. Melanism is due to changes in the agouti gene which controls banding of black and light areas on the hair shaft. Leopards and jaguars with this condition are often called black panther (although cougars are also known as panthers, there are no verified cases of melanism in that species). However, the leopard, the jaguar, the lion and the tiger are all members of the Panthera genus. One good example of melanism expressed within a certain animal community is that of the leopard population in Malaysia, South East Asia, in which case up to 50% of the population has melanism. That is apparently due to them being more cryptic in their dusky rainforest habitat. Better resistance to viruses may also explain the greater prevalence of black leopards in those areas.

In the Jaguar, melanism is due to a dominant gene mutation meaning that black jaguars may produce spotted offspring. In the leopard, melanism is due to a recessive gene mutation meaning that two spotted leopards carrying the gene may produce black cubs, but black leopards will breed true when mated together. It is believed that Tigers and Lions may also have the potential to be melanistic, but while there may have been black lions and tigers in the past, it is also quite possible melanistic bloodlines are extinct.

Melanism has been found to be linked to beneficial changes in the immune system. The Smithsonian Answer Book: Cats notes that genes for melanism in felines may provide resistance from viral infections and that a viral epidemic may explain the prevalence of black leopards in Java and Malaysia, and the relatively high incidence of black leopards and black servals in the Aberdares region of Africa.[citation needed] Previously, black furred felines in the Aberdares had been considered a high altitude adaptation due to absorbing more heat.[citation needed]

Studies reported in New Scientist magazine in 2003 also suggested that recessive-gene melanism is linked to disease resistance rather than altitude. According to Eduardo Eizirik and Stephen O'Brien of the United States National Cancer Institute in Maryland, the melanism mutations involve the same gene family as those involved in human. Melanistic cats may therefore have better resistance to disease than cats with "normal" colour coats. This would explain why recessive melanism persists when melanistic individuals are disadvantaged due to being poorly camouflaged in open areas.

In the United States National Cancer Institute studies, black cats were found to have changes to a gene known as MC1R. MC1R is a member of a family of genes that includes the human gene CCR5 which codes for a protein on the cell membrane. Melanism could make black cats less susceptible to certain viral infections making melanism an evolutionary advantage.
so according to wiki no disadvantages health-wise, although a possible advantage? I will take that with a grain of salt....

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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-23-2010, 12:47 PM
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Question Melanism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggymay View Post
Based on wikipedia:



so according to wiki no disadvantages health-wise, although a possible advantage? I will take that with a grain of salt....

Jury is still out on this one...

I am left wondering if this information is any part true, would it really be a bad thing to further research a possible health advantage for the Doberman breed? I would certainly like to be as educated as possible before I could condemn or promote darker Doberman dogs.

Really though... what if it was true? and to what extent might it effect long term health for the whole breed?

education friends, WE NEED MORE EDUCATION!
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-23-2010, 03:05 PM
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Honestly, wikipedia is the last resource I Regard as true.Too many people like to alter information there to try and get media attention and mislead people.Sometimes people just don't know that they aren't correct on certain subjects and sometimes there just isnt enough study on a certain particular subject.
As related to wikipedia:
Wikipediao not create hoaxes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
User:Shii/Hoaxes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle6809313.ece
25 Biggest Blunders in Wikipedia History | Best Colleges Online
Ohterwise:
List of hoaxes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
------
On a side note I feel for these dogs,They are still beautiful creatures imho as I feel all dogs are, but I'm saddened to see the blatant disrespect for the standard these days. I didnt know about the all black dogs before now and it breaks my heart to know these greeders have another tool to market their 'Dobermans' with.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-27-2010, 10:02 PM
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I doubt that she is using the Giant Schnauzers to get solid black in the "Dobes". You'd immediately run into the coat problem--that Terrier coat is hard to get rid of once it's in a line.

I've seen dogs from lines that run to melanism which had almost not facial markings and so much black in the rust of the foot and instep that the whole foot was black rather than just having some minor penciling on the toes. If you were determined to breed "black" Dobermans it wouldn't take much to do starting with some of the more melanistic specimens that are around. You can do much the same thing with red Dobes--they can be melanistic as well--and again, I've seen some that have nearly no chest markings and no facial markings.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-27-2010, 11:26 PM
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Isnt it enough that this a cause to get disqualified in a show? If a breeders breeds out of the standard is the same as breeding alpinos. No health problems maybe goos pets but still out of standar. That should say a lot about the rest of the dog.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2010, 08:26 AM
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I've never seen an all black Dobe either, and certainly prefer the looks of a traditional Dobe. I will say however, the Dobe in your last picture has a beautiful face. Then again if it is a Dobe, I think it's beautiful if the picture is of the other end. lol
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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2010, 12:47 PM
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Definitely caught my attention but breeding for color...

...but what do I know- I have never seen one live

MERLIN is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-01-2010, 08:48 PM
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dont be chickens cause its pure black dobie like black cats witches etc i got a black cat haha dont brother me but all black dobies should be in the standered as the black/rust ones white ones shouldn't be allow to breed.. get ya dobie dna tested to the snohser dog make sures its pure dobie
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-01-2010, 09:30 PM
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I'd never seen one in person either until I started volunteering for rescue - since then I've met 3.

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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-10-2012, 03:10 PM
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I got my buddy Higgins from Von Hy Ty in 2004. He was a red Dobe, and although Peggy had a Giant Schnauzer, in the many times I visited I never saw a black Dobe. Most of tha dams were red. I even got to meet Higgins grandma (Jade, I think) – incredibly spry for a 12 yr old Dobe. All of Peggy's dogs were beautiful, healthy and had great temperament – which is why I chose Von Hy Ty. I've never understood why Peggy doesn't have a website though.

Unfortunately Higgins and Pinto Beans, his little German Shorthaired Pointer buddy, passed away in a house fire we had in 2007. I have yet to get another dog, choosing to wait until I can afford to get 2 Von Hy Ty Dobes at once!

Anyway, I know Peggy to be very compassionate with her dogs and passionate about breeding ethics. (I had to sign a contract outlining my breeding ambitions, or, in my case, that Higgins would be neutered.) I can't imagine her to be actively pursuing a breeding strategy that would harm the breed or her pups.

Last edited by professorboheme; 05-10-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-10-2012, 03:19 PM
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<quote>I got my buddy Higgins from Von Hy Ty in 2004. He was a red Dobe, and although Peggy had a Giant Schnauzer, in the many times I visited I never saw a black Dobe. Most of tha dams were red. I even got to meet Higgins grandma (Jade, I think) – incredibly spry for a 12 yr old Dobe. All of Peggy's dogs were beautiful, healthy and had great temperament – which is why I chose Von Hy Ty. I've never understood why Peggy doesn't have a website though.

Unfortunately Higgins and Pinto Beans, his little German Shorthaired Pointer buddy, passed away in a house fire we had in 2007. I have yet to get another dog, choosing to wait until I can afford to get 2 Von Hy Ty Dobes at once!

Anyway, I know Peggy to be very compassionate with her dogs and passionate about breeding ethics. (I had to sign a contract outlining my breeding ambitions, or, in my case, that Higgins would be neutered.) I can't imagine her to be actively pursuing a breeding strategy that would harm the breed or her pups.</quote>

Welcome to the fourm and we are glad you popped in at just the right moment to come to the rescue. How nice. But anyone who is not trying to breed the standard is pursuing a breeding strategy that is harmful to the breed. It is why we have a standard that describes the correct markings.

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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-05-2012, 08:24 PM
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Funny! I just came across one of her pups....all black! He has more working potential than 90% of Dobes I have seen working! lol!

I will keep him!
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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-05-2012, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntdobermann View Post
Funny! I just came across one of her pups....all black! He has more working potential than 90% of Dobes I have seen working! lol!

I will keep him!
Awesome!

Since you're clearly qualified to make such claims, folks here will love hearing about your credentials.

How many SchH titles have you personally put on Dobermans? Or even other breeds?

How long have you been training in the working sports? Who are your mentors, when it comes to grading puppies and evaluating for working potential?

How many working titles do this pup's parents each hold? What's the pedigree?




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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-06-2012, 07:27 PM
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