Breeder info & tail docking ... PM - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-27-2020, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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Breeder info & tail docking ... PM

Question: Have any of you ever heard of a breeder “guaranteeing the tail docking to look natural and not choppy?“ I can’t remember the breeders name. What are your thoughts on this.

Also (new to dobi’s). I can find lots of info on ear cropping & posting but not on tail docking. How do they determine the length of the dock? I have seen Pics of pups in the same litter with what looks like different tail dock lengths. Some look really short. Might be a silly question but will the tail grow some (after docking) as the pup grows?

Should I be Leary of a breeder that docks the tails themselves instead of letting a vet do it?
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-27-2020, 08:30 PM
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That's not one I've heard before. A docked tail is going to look like a docked tail. As far as length goes, according to the AKC standard: Tail docked at approximately second joint, appears to be a continuation of the spine, and is carried only slightly above the horizontal when the dog is alert.


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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-28-2020, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by PM2244 View Post
Question: Have any of you ever heard of a breeder “guaranteeing the tail docking to look natural and not choppy?“ I can’t remember the breeders name. What are your thoughts on this.

Also (new to dobi’s). I can find lots of info on ear cropping & posting but not on tail docking. How do they determine the length of the dock? I have seen Pics of pups in the same litter with what looks like different tail dock lengths. Some look really short. Might be a silly question but will the tail grow some (after docking) as the pup grows?

Should I be Leary of a breeder that docks the tails themselves instead of letting a vet do it?
Why are you not following up with all of the quality breeder recommendations you've been given?


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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-28-2020, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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Why are you not following up with all of the quality breeder recommendations you've been given?

? I haven’t been given any. Where were they posted?

Last edited by melbrod; 07-28-2020 at 04:52 PM.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-28-2020, 05:01 PM
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In response to your original post on your first thread, Shelian Dobe recommended starting with the DPCA listings:

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Originally Posted by ShelianDobe View Post
Welcome to DT

I believe you can do much better. Check out the Breeder's Referral on the DPCA website.


Don't be surprised if you need to travel a bit or be on a waiting list. Good luck with your search.
Then, in your response to the Hoytt thread, falfenix asked if you'd followed up with that:

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Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
In your original post, you were given the suggestion of starting on the DPCA list. Have you found anyone there who interests you? Have you contacted the breeder of Meadowcat's male, Glengate?
Then, back to your original thread, Gretchen Red recommended a breeder to you:

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Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
If you're looking for bone and a squarer jawline, Starline produces a lot of nice puppies.
I think you need to take a step back and do some more basic research on what makes a reputable breeder. Take a look at the stickies. Go to the DPCA breeder listings. Go to the DPCA website and go to Chapter Clubs - contact the club nearest you.

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...e-breeder.html

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...red-flags.html

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...-want-pet.html


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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-28-2020, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
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I have been reading many posts about selecting a breeder. And MANY other posts on this site. I have used (still using) the DPCA Breeder referral. There was one breeder that I really liked. Her website was very informative. I liked the look of the dogs but she was not very talkative. I would ask a question and most of the time I got one word answers. She did not offer any additional information but was willing to go ahead and take a deposit. So I decided that would not be a good fit.

I know some breeders prefer phone calls over emails but personally I like to start with email. That way I can refer back to the emails for the info. Also I was trying to stay somewhat close so that I could visit the kennels. But i do understand it may not work out That way.

I did like Hoytt. And I have searched Hoytt on this site as was recommended but found several non favorable posts about them. One post even mentioned “mass breeder”. But am still researching them.

I also asked about a couple others on this site and was told I could “do better”. I did not originally see the mention of Starline, looking into them and Windsong now. I have not gone back to my original post to see if there are anymore recommendations (actually, embarrassed to say this but I am having trouble finding my original first post - new to this site).

I am still doing MUCH research but still have questions like the ones above about tail docking. Should I be concerned that a breeder docks the tails instead of sending to a vet to be done? If a breeder says they “guarantee” tail docking to not look chopped, is that something that I should put much thought into or is it like when they offer a 3 yr health guarantee?

Thank you for any and all advice
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-28-2020, 08:27 PM
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-28-2020, 09:02 PM
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A breeder guaranteeing the tail dock not look chopped is just a weird thing to say. The tails will be done at just a few days old and if any of them need to be redone they will be fixed when the ears are cropped. I wouldn't put so much thought into tails; concentrate on finding a good breeder instead.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-28-2020, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PM2244 View Post
I have been reading many posts about selecting a breeder. And MANY other posts on this site. I have used (still using) the DPCA Breeder referral. There was one breeder that I really liked. Her website was very informative. I liked the look of the dogs but she was not very talkative. I would ask a question and most of the time I got one word answers. She did not offer any additional information but was willing to go ahead and take a deposit. So I decided that would not be a good fit.

I know some breeders prefer phone calls over emails but personally I like to start with email. That way I can refer back to the emails for the info. Also I was trying to stay somewhat close so that I could visit the kennels. But i do understand it may not work out That way.

I did like Hoytt. And I have searched Hoytt on this site as was recommended but found several non favorable posts about them. One post even mentioned “mass breeder”. But am still researching them.
I think if you read through the stickies I posted you'll have a better idea of how to evaluate breeders (for example, take a read through them....what do you think of a breeder like Hoytt after that? What appeals to you about them? Why do you like them?)

I wouldn't contact breeders until you have a good idea of which breeder, maybe 2, that you are pretty serious about. Breeders are getting so many contacts right now, it's impossible for them to keep up. Unless you are seriously interested in one of their puppies, and write up a fairly long email detailing why you are interested in their breeding program, what your dog "resume" is, what your intentions for the puppy are...you aren't going to likely get detailed answers. Or, you'll hear back more from someone who's trying to "sell" you a dog, and that's not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by PM2244 View Post
I also asked about a couple others on this site and was told I could “do better”. I did not originally see the mention of Starline, looking into them and Windsong now. I have not gone back to my original post to see if there are anymore recommendations (actually, embarrassed to say this but I am having trouble finding my original first post - new to this site).
Click on "User CP", "Edit Options" and go down to the box header that says "Default Thread Subscription Mode". I recommend selecting either "instant email notification" or "daily email notification" so that you receive an email from the forum when someone comments on your thread. It provides a link to the thread, too. That way you do not lose track of your threads and comments.

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I am still doing MUCH research but still have questions like the ones above about tail docking. Should I be concerned that a breeder docks the tails instead of sending to a vet to be done? If a breeder says they “guarantee” tail docking to not look chopped, is that something that I should put much thought into or is it like when they offer a 3 yr health guarantee?

Thank you for any and all advice
I don't know many breeders that would discuss this topic with someone that isn't even getting a puppy from them. Anyone that would say that something like "not having a chopped" look doesn't sound like someone I'd want to consider. It's not the language I've ever heard from someone ethical.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-28-2020, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PM2244 View Post
Question: Have any of you ever heard of a breeder “guaranteeing the tail docking to look natural and not choppy?“ I can’t remember the breeders name. What are your thoughts on this.

Also (new to dobi’s). I can find lots of info on ear cropping & posting but not on tail docking. How do they determine the length of the dock? I have seen Pics of pups in the same litter with what looks like different tail dock lengths. Some look really short. Might be a silly question but will the tail grow some (after docking) as the pup grows?

Should I be Leary of a breeder that docks the tails themselves instead of letting a vet do it?
The guarantee about the natural looking, not choppy tail sounds ridiculous. Not exactly a problem I've ever heard of that needs to be guaranteed against. Sounds right up there with "breeders" that ramble on about perfect markings.

Tail docking can be a real crap shoot. I would tell my cropping/docking vet what I wanted. I've gone so far as to mark the undersides of the tails with markers before going in. I was usually right there and he'd say "here?" and I'd think it looks great, and try as we might to make them all the same, it was a real roll of the dice. Of course the tail grows some right along with the puppy but if it's a really short dock, it's going to be a really short dock.

Some breeders have been docking their own tails for decades. Some were trained by vets or long time breeders before them. I might be leary of a relatively new breeder doing it. Not an easy question to answer.
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-29-2020, 01:05 PM
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Ref: Tail docking: I have one comment: I would never buy a Doberman from any breeder who plays "vet" by docking her own puppies' tails.
The other day we walked through Home Depot with Tullagirl and met another person with a red Doberman and his tail showed the end of the bone on the tail. That dog was 6 years old and the owner stated he had gotten the dog from a reputable breeder etc.--- I think a tail is docked and the skin is then pulled over the surgery site and sutured. Our dog has a little light tuft of hair there. Cute. (She is an Irongate Doberman)
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-29-2020, 04:10 PM
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Lots of things can happen that will result in an imperfect tail dock. Most good breeders look at the tail when it is time to crop ears and decide if any tails need to be fixed. My Harvard's tail had to have some scar tissue taken off at cropping time and resutured. His dam had opened all the tails after they were docked at 3 days of age - all but one closed back up just fine.... Harvard was the only one that needed his tail fixed.
It is pretty much a bit of an art to dock the tail at the correct length - 3 day old puppy tails are pretty tiny. From what I've been told, feeling the second vertebrae down is pretty difficult to do. My tail docker says that she cuts the tail right where is covers the anus - but even then says she eyeballs it. I've never had a bad length in my 3 litters.

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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-29-2020, 06:15 PM
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Do not forget there are two methods to docking - cutting the tail is the most common one, but banding is also popular and when done properly can be less stress, less fuss and have beautiful results. The DPCA has a page with instructions on tail banding from an experienced breeder.
Gentry Boxers also has a step by step tutorial on tail banding.

When it comes to cutting some breeders will suture, I know a breeder in MA who will staple them. And even reputable breeders can end up with mangled looking tails because of things like the dam chewing them, the puppy playing and scrapping the end of the tail before it's fully healed, siblings or the pup themselves chewing on them etc.

Interestingly I've heard from several experienced long time breeders that vets often produce less nice results than breeders or docking specialists and I've had several breeders say they need to have tails fixed more often when a vet does them than when they do it themselves. It just depends on how well equipped and knowledgeable breeders are.

But it's really odd to add a guarantee or brag about it.


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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-30-2020, 12:34 AM
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I know that a lot of vets, who, without a lot of experience docking puppies (especially ones with relatively short docks (like Dobes) did worse docks than breeders who had been docking their own puppies for many years through many litters.

We had one vet for years and years (since retired and boy do i miss him) who did lovely docks. As a city practice we didn't see all that many baby puppies who needed to be docked but when we did all of the breeders seemed to know our vets name and they'd ask for him. He told me one time that he got his experience docking lambs--most breeders of sheep do their own docks but his father who was a vet with a mixed practice (large and small animals) had him learn docking on lambs and for two lambing seasons he docked a lot of lambs (for free, just to get the experience).

I was holding puppies for him--a small litter of 2 day old Standard Poodle puppies--the breeder was standing there watching. Our vet went to get another roll of suture material and the breeder said--"I love his docks...He never ever gets them wrong" Pretty high praise.

Yeah, I agree Artemis--I thought it was really odd to be asking about docking tails so it didn't look like they'd been docked?

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