Referrals for reputable breeder - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 03:09 AM Thread Starter
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Referrals for reputable breeder

Hello all:

Ideally I would like to find a breeder that is not far as I want to lay eyes on living conditions and parents before I invest in a pup. I live in TX. I am most interested in health, temperament (I have 2 kids), guard/protection and of course beautiful. I was leaning towards txpups.com, but I saw an old post on this platform that wasnt very favorable. Anyone have recent exp w/ Andrea? Any other breeders I should consider? Im wking in info overload, so any other advice or tips would be greatly appreciated. Thx in advance.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 08:56 AM
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I don't know this breeder but from looking at the website and looking at your requests I have a few questions and such.

1. The first female listed has the prong collar on incorrectly.
2. The collar on her and the rest of the females and the male is too big
3. The females are all over standard which isn't a good sign.

4. I see no pedigrees or health testing listed (although they say health testing is listed I didn't see any). You say health is important but why would you be considering a breeder where you see no signs of health testing?

5. The ear crops are horrid, and these dogs are meh looking at best, are the looks of these dogs what you want your puppy to look like? Also, every single picture of their dogs is outside. IDK about you but my Dobermans are inside dogs and they are a single coated breed that was never meant to be outside as they lack the cooling functions or heating functions.

6. Finally I charge $3,000 for pets. I do extensive health testing above and beyond on my dogs (OFA hips, elbows, eyes, teeth, yearly holter, yearly echo, yearly thyroid, yearly full blood panel, and all of the Embark testing. My puppies are supplied with enrichment tools and testing as they grow, the best supplements out there, they are also health tested through Embark (saves the puppy buyers $199), they are taken on multiple car rides, they are crate trained, they are nearly house broken, my puppies are already cropped ($400-600) I also supply the microchip (Saves the puppy buyers $35), they are already registered with AKC (I think this costs about $33), I also send them home with a collar, leash, food, a stuffie toy and a blanket. Maybe I ask what this breeder is doing to charge $2400 for a puppy? On top of that you can BUY full breeding rights for another $500?

6. The amount of money you spend determines if you get pick of the litter? So you meet the puppies for 30min and that determines which puppy you get? What if you want an active puppy and the most active outgoing puppy played all day and is tired when you get there? Or what if you wanted a laid back puppy and you pick that one. I can tell you with certainty, on any given moment of any given day, the temperament of my puppies can appear different than what they actually are, depending on what has happened to them or what time of day it is.

7. I would suggest going to the DPCA website and breeder referral and reaching out to the breeders listed there. Also, look for local clubs and reach out to them, there are many breeders that aren't listed on the DPCA website.

Good luck
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 09:03 AM
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I browsed this site as well and came across this

"This is an exceptional litter from outstanding parents! Many champions in their pedigree including Del Nasi, Chagall, Kimbertal, Sant Kreal, Altobello, Pride of Russia, De Britton, Lipar Land, and others. Over the years, my puppies have gone on to excel in agility, tracking, drug sniffing, personal protection, search and rescue, as therapy dogs, and as wonderful family pets. Socialization is very important to my breeding program, and my puppies go to their new homes with the confidence to make a healthy transition into their forever homes. Puppies are raised with much care and receive plenty of love and attention. They are socialized with my toddler son, and they naturally love children. My puppies go to their new homes current on all age appropriate vaccines and dewormings and will have their tails docked and declaws removed."

I bolded the two kennels that are in their pedigree that are concerning to me. I'm sure others would have inputs on others but Kimbertal is a known puppy mill in the US and I wouldn't touch those dogs even if I was paid to do so.

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 09:31 AM
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I remember K-tal from the 70s. They were a piss poor puppy factory then and things have not changed. I had worked back then at a veterinary clinic in the area and we saw the results of their 'breeding program'. Any macho breed that is popular K-tal will begin churning them out. We competed from 2008 to 2015 in agility, OB, rally and did temperament testing in 13 different states and 3 different venues (AKC. UKC, Nadac) and never saw one K-tal dobe. If they were out there they were running somewhere else.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 10:06 AM
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Kimberthal is and has been forever (I got my first Doberman in 1959 and they were around then too) --and they've never been anything except a puppy mill. Ditto for their presence as a Rottweiler breeder.

Altobello has gained a similar reputation in the Euro Doberman market.

I'd run fast and far to find a much better breeder--Texas has quite a few.

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 10:09 AM
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There are many good breeders in Texas but Txpups is not one of them.

You should reach out to the Doberman Pinscher chapter clubs in Texas for more information and referrals to reputable breeders.

Here are the Texas chapter clubs I know of, off the top of my head.

Doberman Pinscher Club of Dallas

Doberman Pinscher Club of Houston

Doberman Pinscher Club of San Antonio

Doberman Pinscher Club of the Greater Austin area
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you so much for feedback! I am truly green to this process which is why I asked. This will be my 1st Dobie. I've talked to Dobie owners and done some online research, hands down, I've learned more trolling this platform and from your replies.

I had no idea that the highlighted pedigrees are known puppy mills. Re: testing, what appealed to me was the statement made about the Sire being cleared of 176 or so health conditions & Dams also having a clear history. One thing that struck me as odd was that she ref testing tab for details for Dam, but when you click on it for details, it ask for a password. I figured that I could simply request to see the paper work of the parents before I make a commitment. Curious, how often should dogs be tested to confirm their health status?

I will contact clubs for referrals, didn't think about that.

Are there other pedigrees that I should watch for? Do you guys google search each one or is there a list of info published somewhere?

Someone on a FB dobie group recommended that I consider raysdobermanskennels in Livingston, TX. Any thoughts?
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you!

Not sure if my first reply went through, uggh. If you all see two, I apologize.

Thank you for the feedback, I'm completely green with this entire process, 1st Dobie. I've talked to owners and breeders on FB groups, done some online research, but hands down I've learned more trolling this platform and from the feedback on this thread.

A few follow up questions:

1. Is there publish info about pedigrees that are known for being puppy mills? Will i be able to do a google search on each one to get an idea? Had no idea about the highlighted pedigree. Any others I should watch for?

2. Someone on FB suggested that I look at raysdobermanskennels in Livingston, TX. Any thoughts about his breeding program?

Re: the point that was raised about me seeing the pup first and maybe not getting the info I need at that time, It's not just about seeing the puppy (although seeing how the pups interact in their surroundings is important to me, I want to see the parents, see their environment, not to mention, I want to make sure that the pup I pick is the one I get.

Re: Contacting clubs, will do. Didn't think about that.

Thanks again!
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Wonderful feedback, thank you. I'm very green with this entire process. The DPCA website doesn't have that many breeders who are active. Will check clubs, didn't think of that. It's important to me that I meet the parents, see the environment and make sure that I'm buying the puppy I picked.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 02:10 PM
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I'm so happy to be a part of this group and even happier that nobody seems to be afraid to speak their mind and tell the truth about some of these mega breeders(puppy mills) because for the novice, this info is critical to finding a good healthy pup.
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 03:08 PM
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So wonderful you are doing your research!

Rays Doberman Kennels = Breeding Kimbertal dogs, horrible conformation, terrible ear crops...
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Des View Post
Not sure if my first reply went through, uggh. If you all see two, I apologize.

Thank you for the feedback, I'm completely green with this entire process, 1st Dobie. I've talked to owners and breeders on FB groups, done some online research, but hands down I've learned more trolling this platform and from the feedback on this thread.

A few follow up questions:

1. Is there publish info about pedigrees that are known for being puppy mills? Will i be able to do a google search on each one to get an idea? Had no idea about the highlighted pedigree. Any others I should watch for?
Here's a site that is a pretty good resource for pedigree research: Dobequest
Click on the "visitor" icon and you can either search for specific dogs, if you have some information about them (their name, registered name, owner's name, breeder's name, kennel name, etc.).

Or you can also leave all the fields blank and just click "search" and it will bring up a long list of every dog that's been entered in the database. This list will not be every registered Doberman, only the ones who have been entered, but it does have a lot of dogs.

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Originally Posted by Des View Post
2. Someone on FB suggested that I look at raysdobermanskennels in Livingston, TX. Any thoughts about his breeding program?
I wouldn't purchase a puppy from them, personally.

If you look at the pedigrees they provide, they're also full of puppy mill and BYB dogs. Their dogs also look to be in poor condition. And although they claim to health test, they don't really provide any substantive information on what health tests. Going by the pedigrees they provide under the "Meet the Boys" menu, there are plenty of lines and dogs known for having died young of cardio and for producing it.

If health is important to you, then you will want to steer well clear of that breeder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Des View Post
Re: the point that was raised about me seeing the pup first and maybe not getting the info I need at that time, It's not just about seeing the puppy (although seeing how the pups interact in their surroundings is important to me, I want to see the parents, see their environment, not to mention, I want to make sure that the pup I pick is the one I get.

Re: Contacting clubs, will do. Didn't think about that.

Thanks again!

Briefly, to your comments that I've bolded...

Regarding seeing the parents. A good breeder may or may not have the stud dog on site. I would say, in most cases, its perfectly reasonable to expect to meet the dam. But good breeders don't just breed to their own stud dog repeatedly. Some good breeders don't even own a stud dog! Instead, they breed to a variety of stud dogs that are often owned by other breeders and can be located anywhere in the world.

For instance, my current Dobe is from a breeder in Texas. I did meet her dam (and all other related dogs who live with the breeder) but her sire lives in Florida and his semen was shipped overnight to Texas for the "breeding," so although I know of him, and I've heard and seen a lot about him, I've never personally met him. Its really not uncommon to not meet the stud dog.

Second, you typically will not pick out your own puppy from a reputable breeder. Especially if you don't have any experience in the breed.

The reason why is because a good breeder will want to evaluate the entire litter for temperament and conformation, and then they will match the best fit puppy to each person / home. That way the people who want to show their dogs, get dogs that can probably finish their AKC championship. And people who want to compete in sports, get dogs that have an aptitude for training competitively. And people who want companions will get a puppy who isn't going to be super high drive or really sharp or, or, or.

Its the crappier breeders that tend to let people pick their own puppy, or they'll try to pressure people into sending them money ASAP because they let people pick a puppy in order of money received. That's a big red flag!



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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-08-2020, 10:07 PM
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Ooops--I just accidently erased a chunk of a post--oh well, I'll try again.

brw1982 gave you a lot of very spot on information and I won't duplicate but will suggest you make a copy of her post and put it up somewhere that you can see it and read it often.

The two points she covered were wanting to meet both the sire and dam and picking your own puppy. She covered the explanation so well I don't need to add anything to it.

But about health testing--you mentioned that the sire had been tested and cleared of about 176 health conditions and I'd bet you that he got a test kit from EMBARK for testing genetic conditions.

Ask if that's how the sire was tested. But, and there is nothing particularly wrong with the test that EMBARK offers but you need to know that it is a genetic test that isn't specifically for dobermans--it covers the existing available gene test for most breeds.
So most of those 176 or so test simply don't apply.

And even though it's around a couple hundred dollars for the kit it's probably still less expensive to get a bunch of tests that don't even constitute a problem in the Doberman breed--I'm all for having that test done rather not have any test done. (For the record I've been testing my dogs as tests became available--even though most of my dags remain intact I don't breed them but occasionally my breeder has used one of them and for anyone looking a lineage it provides them with information. My last dog was tested by EMBARK at their request because he lived a very long life for a Dobe--he was 14 when I lost him. So even though I do test I haven't used EMBARK in part because they are pretty new at this and there are test that I've never tested for because while they are useful for someone breeding the aren't for me. There is a genetic test for narcolepsy--I don't test for it--he doesn't have it--it would have been apparent early in his life and since even if he carried it since I wasn't breeding him it made no difference. Ditto for the test for 'dings'--again, there is a genetic test for it but long before the test anyone who had 'dings' in a litter they knew it--because of the way the puppy behaved from birth on.

And it's sad but true some of the things we'd love to have a test for we don't Cardio--common in the Doberman. There is no test--I do what works best at this point--I start testing my dogs at between two and three years--they are Holtered (a 24 hour EKG--that gives a pretty good idea of what's happening to the electrical activity of the heart. And I take him to a vet cardiologist with the Holter report and the cardiologist does an echo exam of the heart (that's a sonagram for the heart) I do that every year and if the dog has any indication that things might not be going well with the heart I'll do those test twice a year. Finding out if the dog is have problems means you have an opportunity to appropriately treat the condition adding years of comfort and companionship for your dog.

Doberman puppies at birth look so much alike that most breeder tie a colored ribbon around their little necks as soon as they are dry. And they record the color of ribbon somewhere so they know in the very beginning which puppy is which. And from what you've told us about the breeder it doesn't sound like she'd be the type to do a puppy switch at the last minute.

There really aren't lists of good and bad breeders or which ones are really just puppy mills--it's kind of more like you get the information from things like this forum, from various Facebook pages, from the breeder you choose and if you do stuff with your dog--it's not just Obedience or Conformation any more--it stuff like Agility, Tricks, Barn Hunt, more showing up all the time--and those people will add to your store of information.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you find the dog of your dreams and stay on these forums and tell us all about it.

dobebug
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 06:54 AM
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I didn't see anyone mention De Britton - that's Britton farms. That's also a puppy mill.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
6. Finally I charge $3,000 for pets. I do extensive health testing above and beyond on my dogs (OFA hips, elbows, eyes, teeth, yearly holter, yearly echo, yearly thyroid, yearly full blood panel, and all of the Embark testing. My puppies are supplied with enrichment tools and testing as they grow, the best supplements out there, they are also health tested through Embark (saves the puppy buyers $199), they are taken on multiple car rides, they are crate trained, they are nearly house broken, my puppies are already cropped ($400-600) I also supply the microchip (Saves the puppy buyers $35), they are already registered with AKC (I think this costs about $33), I also send them home with a collar, leash, food, a stuffie toy and a blanket. Maybe I ask what this breeder is doing to charge $2400 for a puppy?
While I don't disagree with your evaluation of this particular breeder, Creed's breeder did almost all of this (just not Embark because their genetic testing didn't exist like that yet) and she charged $1000 less than you do for a dog with parents more extensively titled than yours. While I don't doubt in 6 years that prices have raised for some things, the price for a doberman puppy still hovers around $2500-$3000 and some are able to be a little cheaper depending on exact location. $2400 isn't absurd to me- it's more than my own dog was- and I remember a time when $3000 was the bordering on absurd price not so long ago.

As said, your assessment of the breeder mentioned is pretty spot on, but the pricepoint isn't really one of the things that bugs me about the quality here.

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 08:49 AM
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While I don't disagree with your evaluation of this particular breeder, Creed's breeder did almost all of this (just not Embark because their genetic testing didn't exist like that yet) and she charged $1000 less than you do for a dog with parents more extensively titled than yours. While I don't doubt in 6 years that prices have raised for some things, the price for a doberman puppy still hovers around $2500-$3000 and some are able to be a little cheaper depending on exact location. $2400 isn't absurd to me- it's more than my own dog was- and I remember a time when $3000 was the bordering on absurd price not so long ago.

As said, your assessment of the breeder mentioned is pretty spot on, but the pricepoint isn't really one of the things that bugs me about the quality here.
Then we can agree to disagree. $2,400 from for an uncropped dog, from parents with little health testing seems outrageous to me. Add in breeding rights and they're charging $500 dollars more than I am after cropping. And $2500-3000 is NOT the going rate right now and it wasn't 3 years ago when I was looking for a puppy (one breeder charged $3,500, one charged $3,600 and another charged $3,800). It's more like $3500-4000. My puppies are on the lower end. I spent $5000 just on vet bills for breeding and puppy care what makes this breeders puppies worth so much to you? No titles, little health testing, breeding to their own dogs so little to no vet bills, not cropping... What makes up the cost of $2,400? If that's your breeding program you should be able to sell puppies for $1,000 and still make a killing.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
Then we can agree to disagree. $2,400 from for an uncropped dog, from parents with little health testing seems outrageous to me. Add in breeding rights and they're charging $500 dollars more than I am after cropping. And $2500-3000 is NOT the going rate right now and it wasn't 3 years ago when I was looking for a puppy (one breeder charged $3,500, one charged $3,600 and another charged $3,800). It's more like $3500-4000. My puppies are on the lower end. I spent $5000 just on vet bills for breeding and puppy care what makes this breeders puppies worth so much to you? No titles, little health testing, breeding to their own dogs so little to no vet bills, not cropping... What makes up the cost of $2,400? If that's your breeding program you should be able to sell puppies for $1,000 and still make a killing.
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While I don't disagree with your evaluation of this particular breeder
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your assessment of the breeder mentioned is pretty spot on
Please read my reply in full before becoming aggressive with me. I very clearly agreed that this particular breeder was not ideal. I disagreed that a price of $2400 is a red flag if the breeder is doing everything they should be. I can find dogs within the price range I said without too much difficulty and the breeders are doing everything you've mentioned.

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 09:11 AM
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I don't know any reputable breeder selling puppies for $2500 anymore. It's $3-4000 in this area and if you go a little further south you see some for $5000.
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 09:14 AM
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I know that Radiant dobermans has puppies currently and is probably expecting another litter. My advice would be to contact the DPCA affiliated club closest to you. In Texas there are 3 chapter clubs and you can find their info on the DPCA.org site.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazi View Post
Please read my reply in full before becoming aggressive with me. I very clearly agreed that this particular breeder was not ideal. I disagreed that a price of $2400 is a red flag if the breeder is doing everything they should be. I can find dogs within the price range I said without too much difficulty and the breeders are doing everything you've mentioned.
And I never said it was a red flag so perhaps you're the one that needs to read the full comment. I asked why the breeder would charge so much after explaining the time, care and money that a reputable breeder would put behind their program.

And don't act like I came at you attacking from out of nowhere. Or was you mentioning that your breeder having many more titles than the 2 young dogs in my breeding program just a happenstance comment and not meaning for offense? You came at me attacking, you knew you were attacking, you meant to attack and you're still attacking, don't try to play some sort of victim or try to play as though I didn't read your entire comment.
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 11:18 AM
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And I never said it was a red flag so perhaps you're the one that needs to read the full comment. I asked why the breeder would charge so much after explaining the time, care and money that a reputable breeder would put behind their program.

And don't act like I came at you attacking from out of nowhere. Or was you mentioning that your breeder having many more titles than the 2 young dogs in my breeding program just a happenstance comment and not meaning for offense? You came at me attacking, you knew you were attacking, you meant to attack and you're still attacking, don't try to play some sort of victim or try to play as though I didn't read your entire comment.
You said you charge $3k for puppies- that means your young dogs are considered breeding dogs at their ages. I said that when it comes to breeding dogs, my breeder did everything you're doing and had more titles on her breeding dogs, than on your breeding dogs, and my dog was definitely not $3k. I did say it was 6 years ago and so prices may have gone up but I would be shocked to see them to have grown so much in that time. It wasn't an attack, don't see it as one. Stating this does not attack your program any more than your saying that under that price range was not obtainable. I even agreed with you in my initial post, simply disagreed about the pricing being a problem if the breeder is doing everything right. It's not an attack to disagree or to give the reasons for disagreement.

I also stated that I know how to find dogs under the price that you've specifically stated, dogs who are titled and health tested, from people who care about what they produce, and so perhaps it's a matter of where you look. Not an attack on you to state the truth. I have heard of dogs costing upwards of $4.5-5k but the majority are in that $2.5-3k range I've stated where I look.
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 12:11 PM
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Any mention or comments/experiences on the following breeders as listed on Doberman Pinscher Club of Dallas?

NanBall Dobermans
Cadence Dobermans
Flagship Dobermans
Foxhall Dobermans
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
I don't know any reputable breeder selling puppies for $2500 anymore. It's $3-4000 in this area and if you go a little further south you see some for $5000.
I priced my puppies at 2500$ CAD, so about 1800$ USD. There are a few people in the midwest who I believe are still pricing their pups at 2000-2500$ USD from fully health tested and titled parents.


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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 01:19 PM
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I don't know anyone selling puppies for that price anymore, I think maybe 10-15 years ago you would see that as the norm. The price I mentioned for this area is assuming both parents are finished/health tested too.
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-09-2020, 02:31 PM
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I think pricing of well bred pups can still vary quite a bit, regionally.

Ten years ago, $1,500 was fairly common in the mid-west for a pet pup, whereas $2,500 (or more) was common on the coasts. Now, I've heard of some breeders in the coastal regions charging closer to $4,500 to $5,000 for a pet pup.

Whatever the case, I'll just reiterate for the OP that price does not necessarily equal well bred or quality.

There are plenty of puppy mills and BYB-ers who charge several thousand dollars for their pups without any titles or health testing done on the parents and minimal care put into their litters.



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