My experience with Adlercrest - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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My experience with Adlercrest

I haven't posted in long time, but I feel like this needs to be posted for anyone possibly looking for a puppy. I started looking for a puppy in 2013 time frame and Adlercrest was a name I seemed to constantly stumbled upon. I got in touch with Linda and Philip in 2014 and in 2015 I got a male puppy Eiger vom Adlercrest out of Wynona and Freddy. He quickly became my best friend. He accomplished his CGCA and TKA and we were going for his BH this fall. Linda was in constant contact with me checking to make sure I was still working him as that was the condition he was sold to me for.(for $2500). At 2 I did a holter and it came up clear, I didn't do it for the following 2 years as life took hold (broken engagement ect) I decided I would possibly breed him if he passed his BH this fall and I reached out to Linda and she agreed as long as he passed all health testing and got an IPO title. Hips were excellent, thyroid normal, eyes perfect but when I took his for his echocardiogram they found an atrial arrhythmia stage 2 murmur and occult DCM. I was and still am completely heartbroken...he's only 5. I reached out to Linda and all I got was an "I'm very sorry" I asked what would happen since the health contract he has is until 6 years of age and she said "we'll see" and then when I got upset "oh we'll give you another puppy." She never offered any advice and honestly went silent She only reached out to me when she was worried about her kennel reputation and not the welfare of Kracken. I posted in a facebook DCM group asking for advice on supplements ect and hours later she messaged me upset saying she wanted to keep this just between us. She said "We wish you would have kept this information between us. Larry hates us and would do anything to make us look bad. Do not trust people on facebook forums. Most just collect information to be able to gossip later. They are not your friends." I honestly stopped responding, I was and am still very upset at her, she has not even checked in once about how he is doing, I also feel she should notify his littermates to make sure they keep up on their heart testing, I only have contact for one of his littermates and he was upset he wasn't notified. His embark came back as having 2 copies of a risk variant associated with DCM1 and 2 copies of a risk variant associated with DCM2. I also had another person reach out to me to tell me in 2012 their Adlercrest doberman fell dead in their yard in 2012 and Linda became upset with them when they posted about it and wanted him to take it down.

I understand dobermans get DCM and that "dcm clear" lines do not exist but I also feel like how you respond to these issues is what separates the good breeders from the bad. I wouldn't trade any of the moments I have had with Kracken for anything but knowing what I know now, I would never choose Adlercrest.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 10:25 PM
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Sorry to hear about Kracken. We never want to get bad news about our lovey's health. Hopefully you can get him on a good regiment with your cardiologist.

I'm also sorry you didn't get the support you had hoped for from your breeder.

I'm sending good thoughts for you and Kracken to have many more years together.

Keep loving your boy and enjoy every moment.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-02-2020, 08:43 AM
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I'm so incredibly sorry about your boy. This disease is a plague on our breed and I think we need to be open about more ways to think about how we're going to think differently about the future.

I'm sad that we have such a culture in Dobermans that breeders feel that they can't be honest and open about health. I think many of us realize that DCM happens everywhere, no matter how diligent a breeder is. It's just a fact of the breed. All we can ask as owners is that a breeders does their very best, and gives us support as an owner if DCM does happen. And, I believe, breeders do owe it to us as owners and buyers, and to each other, to be open and honest. I hope that we, as the "Doberman fancy" can change the culture. It's truly the only way our breed can survive.

Again, I'm sorry about your boy's diagnosis. I hope that, with the help of a cardiologist and treatment, you get a lot more quality time together.


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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-02-2020, 09:44 AM
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I hate to hear about stuff like this. There should be no shame in having dogs develop DCM - it is everywhere and pops up where you least suspect it to. Keeping it secret does not help - rumors then start that can be worse than the truth. I had DCM pop up in my second litter that surprised the hell out of me being that the dam lived to 11 and the sire lived to 13. I did not make a secret out of it. I've also had some DCM in my 3rd litter - no secret!! All breeders get it - there can be no guarantees in this breed. DCM should mean increased breeder check ins, not less

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-02-2020, 10:18 AM
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I'm with the 2 above.

I'm sorry that your boy was diagnosed with DCM and you were treated poorly.

I also hate how hush, hush breeders are about it. Recently there was a dog at the age of 6 who died of bloat, coincidently I knew his pedigree and wouldn't have touched him with a 10 foot pole. Beautiful dog, pedigree full of DCM, no thank you. Also coincidently, at the same age a littermate passed away suddenly from DCM. I'm not saying the breeder lied, but it's awful peculiar. Why so many breeders lie, or just as bad, fail to report it is very bothersome to me.

But as I've also learned is many pet people are the reason breeders lie, people go around bashing the breeder for something that is out of their control. They don't want word to get out that DCM runs in their lines, well guess what it runs in EVERY line!

With all of that said it sounds like the breeder, based on your side of the story, could have had a bit more Couth about it.

I wish you and your boy the best. I heard there's a facebook group called "dobe health" (spelled exactly that way) and there's someone in there that's great at helping with DCM.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-02-2020, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
I hate to hear about stuff like this. There should be no shame in having dogs develop DCM - it is everywhere and pops up where you least suspect it to. Keeping it secret does not help - rumors then start that can be worse than the truth. I had DCM pop up in my second litter that surprised the hell out of me being that the dam lived to 11 and the sire lived to 13. I did not make a secret out of it. I've also had some DCM in my 3rd litter - no secret!! All breeders get it - there can be no guarantees in this breed. DCM should mean increased breeder check ins, not less
Like many things in this world if they are not talked about...then it does not exist and the truth be damned!

It has to be a real hit to the ego of a breeder when DCM shows up at a young age in past litters. The tone of what was conveyed by the OP about this breeder was not awful, since they did offer a pup due to a contract. The real concern is how does the breeder react knowing this line is throwing early DCM? is it hushed up and stick with the plan?
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 10:42 AM
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Very sorry to hear about this, I'm hoping with medication, appropriate diet and exercise you can still have many more years together.

I agree with you and the others above. DCM showing up shouldn't be a mark of shame for a breeder, but their reaction to it and how they handle it says a lot. Breeders aren't gods and even when making breeding decisions based on longevity, keeping up with health testing, mother nature throws surprises here and there. As much as buyers need to understand this, breeders need to be open about it.


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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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I lost my boy on 08/31/2020
thank you everyone for your thoughts during the time I had with him
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 03:54 PM
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Tragic. I am so sorry.

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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 05:37 PM
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I'm so very sorry for your loss.


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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 06:20 PM
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So sorry for your loss, may your memories of you boy be bright.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 06:29 PM
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I am so sorry that you lost him so soon.

For the record cardiac testing counts for a lot in my book--I've been doing holters and echos (at least yearly starting a between 2 and 3 and twice a year starting at between 8 and 9 if there is reason to believe his cardiac condition might be worsening rapidly.

Practically all of my dogs since cardio testing became easier to get and I knew more about cardio longer, earlier than most people do as my very first Doberman got a kind of late diagnosis of DCM with CHF--that's end stage. A vet, a friend stopped by my parents house after a dog show in their area to say hi to them and to my dog who was living his retirement with them. He heard the dog cough and asked how long he'd been coughing--got his stethascope out of his van and told them to take them in to see the vet the next day. That vet had started his professional career as a track vet and he knew a good bit more about heart conditions than the average general practice vet. He put my dog on lasix which was practically the only drug used at the time (basically it was the only drug available back then--1968). And he explained and gave them the bad news--the lasix would only work for so long and then they would have to make the hard decision.

So even though I have many Dobes since then and virtually all of them since the 90's have been tested regularly most of my dogs have not died from DCM. They've had other things for which they got euthanized because it was the kindest thing I could do for a dog of mine.

Atrial fibrillation is more common in the type of cardio that is very frequently the cardiac type that Boxers have--and it too can end in DCM and when I saw what the cardiologist found when they reviewed the Holter I was hoping that your boy would be luckier and get to stay with you longer. I suspect (and I am NOT a vet--but I have had Dobes for many years, I have friends who are vets and I've worked in a vet clinic for the last 16 years) that the stage 2 murmur may have reduced the prospects for living longer.

One of my recent dogs who died of sudden death (which really wasn't very sudden because of his Holter record we knew that the chances of loosing him to sudden death were quite probable. He had atrial fibrillation going up from the time he was about 6--and he was on enalapril from that time on--when he was about 8 he reached an occult DCM stage and his cardiologist and I had a long discussion about what his life was going to like going forward. This was a dog who had been running agility for several years--he was never a hot agility dog but he liked it, he had fun at the trials. Arrhythmias--whether they be atrial of as is more common in Dobe, ventricular are likely to lead to sudden death. And it was just as likely that my dog would die in his sleep in his own bed at home or in my back yard chasing squirrels off the fence so with the cardiologists blessing he continued to play agility with a friend (who actually ran him) and went to an agility trial one morning shortly after they came home I realized something had gone very wrong with him--we didn't make it to the clinic.

But although sudden death can be harder on the owner--it's an easy way for a dog to go--and that dog was just a couple month shy of 10--he'd been healthy all his life and lived it doing things he liked with people that he liked and had a bad 15 minutes and was gone.

I was hoping that's what you and your dog would get--and I'm sorry you didn't.

I hate it when breeders hid cardio information or claim that the DCM 1 and 2 gene test will actually tell you something about the possibility of cardio in your dog (it doesn't) there is going to be a lot more discovery of contributing factors before any kind of genetic tests will tell you that. At this the best thing to do is to start testing your own dog early and continue to do that--there are meds that will really help but if you don't know what's happening you can't treat it.

I heard odds and end of complaints about your breeders and I think you were treated badly by them and I also think that they aren't doing the breed any favors by keeping these kind of physical problems secret .

Again, my heartfelt sympathy--it's terrible to lose a dog that young,

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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 07:22 PM
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DCM is such a huge plague in dobermans—I'm sorry you lost your boy so early to it.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 07:30 PM
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I'm very sorry for your loss.



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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 09:10 PM
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I'm so sorry for the loss of your boy.



Kin's Sweet Revenge aka Sugar December 31/18

Coco Loco RIP April 16/09 to December 21/18
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-16-2020, 10:05 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you so much everyone, I know I wasn't very active on this board and it means so much to me. I am thankful for all the breeders and new friends I made as I was navigating this disease for the first time. Many people who I've never met gave me valuable time and education and for that I will always be thankful. I think soulmates are not always people and he was mine, there is a huge hole in my heart where he will always be missed, unfortunately I don't think another doberman will ever be in my future because they will never compare to him and that wouldn't be fair to them. I will get another working dog because that is my passion but it will probably never be another doberman.
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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-17-2020, 06:28 PM
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I am so sorry for your loss. Heartbreaking and way too young. DCM doesn’t discriminate. Thank you for posting this because I almost got a pup from them this year (due Nov?) and glad I didn’t. I simply didn’t like the demands he made of owning his pup as if I as raising a dog for his kennel. As a business, they were unprofessional on the way they responded to your discovery; as a breeder, they should know exactly how devastating the news was to you. No heart.
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