Discerning Breeding Lines - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-11-2020, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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schwarzer stolz

Hello, can anyone give any comments on this breeder in Quebec. Lines look good.
Purpose is Euro workable family pet with longevity if that makes sense (doesn't have to be an IPO/SCH3).

Im debating between

1) importing directly from Europe (Rio Bianco) - drawback is obtaining 4mo old instead of 10-12wk which I think is important for bond

2) Dobereich

3) schwarzer stolz (my favourite lines out of the Canadian options listed)

4) RM Doberman

Thanks in advance
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-11-2020, 06:10 PM
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Catherine (Schwarzer Stolz) is a good friend of mine, and I know her two females in particular very well.
She health tests extensively and stays on top of it (for the yearly tests).
What she breeds would be suitable for what you seek - she sometimes does litters with more showline influence, sometimes more working influence, depending on the stud. 100% European.

Dobereich mixes Am and Euro lines.

RM is not recommended on this forum and I would steer clear.

Rio Bianco is of course in Italy and follows the FCI standard meaning that pups will not be cropped and docked, so if that matters to you that's another drawback, as you'd be cutting it close for ears, and of course at that age the tail is a much more complex operation.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
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Hello, can anyone give any comments on this breeder in Quebec. Lines look good.
Purpose is Euro workable family pet with longevity if that makes sense (doesn't have to be an IPO/SCH3).

Im debating between

1) importing directly from Europe (Rio Bianco) - drawback is obtaining 4mo old instead of 10-12wk which I think is important for bond

2) Dobereich

3) schwarzer stolz (my favourite lines out of the Canadian options listed)

4) RM Doberman

Thanks in advance

Hi all, was wondering how some of the more avid researchers discern breeding lineage to determine potential of puppies. I understand there are many other influences but from a starting standpoint lets look at a few below and add more or write comments if you can. Correct me if im wrong of course

Citone - tends to be mixed into working lines

Del Rio Bianco - Tends to be in both show and working lines which is funny because the lines are really titled but yet a lot of the big working lines have his dogs in the generations back... ex. Feverhaus dogs
So how do you tell what the line was intended for ?

Grand Venko - also shows up in some working histories and is not well titled

Sant Kreal - seems to be more working line dominated

Diamante nero - both lines again not titled extensively

Now these are not including the big German lines that are extensively titled which also show up in many working programs so maybe the ones above are just quasi working line breeders although I reference Feverhaus again which seems to have many high producing dogs but the males are mostly Kreal and even some of the females.

Thanks in advance

Last edited by greenkouki; 05-12-2020 at 09:11 AM.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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I dont know why it merged both posts my apologies
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 09:21 AM
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I merged both posts because they are all about different breeders you are interested in.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 12:07 PM
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Hang tight....we have a member under user name Artemis and she might have some info for you.

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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Edit *** Rio Bianco Lines are NOT titled
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 01:33 PM
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All the kennel names you mentioned are typically show lines and not true working lines. There isn't a way to 'tell' outright, you just have to learn which lines do what, and then specifically which individual dogs are behind certain dogs.
Here's the catch though, many breeders in the US with a focus on working or european dogs actually do use in part or in full European showlines.

The European showlines from a decade or two ago are not like the showlines of today. Each set of lines has their own advantages and disadvantages and have distinguishing characteristics. Some brave breeders have crossed show and working lines but those mixes were never very popular at least in Europe. In the US there seems to be an emerging interest in outcrossing european and american lines both show and work, whereas our working breeders here have historically often already been crossing euro show and euro work. Also be weary of title tracing - some titles in Eastern Europe have been known to have been bought off. One breeder in particular managed magically to get an IPO1 on her bitch before she got a BH. And the BH was earned on a date where the dog didn't even show up for the routine - amazing! She is luckily banned now from at least on national kennel club but she's not the only one who has managed this.

There are East European showlines, West European showlines (and amongst those German and Italian even more distinguished from the others). There are true working lines primarily from Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia and a few from France.

There are showlines who work, but they remain show lines. This is somewhat true of American lines too. It is of course important to distinguish them from showlines bred for a steady, stable temperament and lower energy and drive, but it is also important to distinguish them from true working lines. They have different temperamental characteristics and physical traits. I can't name them all from the top of my head and of course generalisations can't apply to everyone. Sant Kreal are showlines but consistently have produced dogs who can perform in IGP work so I would be comfortable calling them working show lines. If you look at Sant Kreal Zeus for example he had an IPO3 but his parents only got their IPO or Sch1 and his grandparents as well (one grandma wasn't even titled and even including his great grandparents, he had only two with a 3 and one with a 2). I found a total of 3 offspring with an IPO3 on working-dog from him.

There are also people who spend a lot of time, money to have a dog trained and trialled to be titled, but only trialled as much as necessary to get the title, then immediately retired after they get their 1, their 2 or their 3. If you want a working dog, you will seek a dog from parents who continue to work if only to train rather than compete, on a regular basis for most of their lives. Huge difference between a dog who can work and a dog who needs to work. And a huge difference between a dog who titled because he squeaked by or a dog that earned high scores, especially in protection and tracking when it comes to IGP, although sometimes a weak or strong score can be accounted for with training, by a handler that elevates a dog or gets in the dog's way be it in training errors or handler errors.

If you don't know whether a particular line is show or work, your best bet is to ask someone who has been in the breed for a long time, long enough to see splits happen. There aren't that many european breeders left on this forum that are very active but we have one or two old timers. Mitch from Feverhaus is here and could answer a lot of questions - from what I have seen of his program he uses primarily high drive european showlines and some amount of working line, has produced versatile, drivey dogs with stable temperaments.

Be weary also to consider the sheer volume of dogs being bred. If your litters average 10 puppies, and you're breeding 10 litters a year, that's 100 puppies a year, the individuals that rise to the top might be the exception more than the norm, and so their 'best' production doesn't necessarily reflect their average production. So, even if for example you look at a pedigree and see titles behind with the same kennel name... look at the siblings of those dogs. Are several of the siblings also similarly titled or is there only one for each generation? Reading a pedigree is not just about the direct ancestors, it's also about learning to read laterally (siblings, uncles/aunts, cousins, great aunts/uncles etc.) that will often reveal things about a line that may not be immediately visible to the naked eye. This is true as much of health as it is of conformation and temperament. The mark of a great breeding program is consistency which of course is harder to gauge in programs just starting out, but look at the lines behind their foundations and see what they're consistent in, what they lack consistency in, and are those traits reflected in the dogs they are using in their program.

Example. Prinz vom Norden Stamm lived to age 13. Someone unfamiliar with his litter or breeding might assume great, healthy line, with good longevity. Then I'd tell you his sister was euthanised just shy of 2 years old due to immune system issues and skin problems so bad she stopped responding to treatment. Then I'd point out unsurprisingly similar skin issues pop up in Prinz's descendants. So was Prinz's longevity the rule, or the exception? That's all part of understanding a pedigree, knowing which dogs/characteristics are the rule, and which are the exception. What you want out of a pedigree is consistency of desirable traits, you are looking for good averages. And for negative traits you want to avoid repetition.

And then of course there's the additional issue that very popular sires that were bred very frequently to all kinds of bitches from all kinds of lines will have varying results in terms of offspring longevity and quality, and it can be hard to know what came from them as a sire, vs what came through in their dam's offspring.

Sure you can want a dog out of a bitch who lives in her teens but the parents died at 6,7 and all the littermates and siblings died between 3 and 6 of DCM, and you can cross your fingers that she didn't inherit the negative genes. But are you really stacking the odds in your favour rather than say get a dog from a bitch who lives to 8 but all the littermates made it to 9-11 and the parents made it over 10? All things to consider when researching pedigrees and dogs.

As a rule of thumb, the real, true, pure european working lines will not have any of the famous "euro" sires behind them - Gino Gomez del Citone, Fedor del Nasi, Pride of Russia Sidor, Urbano del Diamante Nero, Nitro del Rio Bianco etc. If you see these dogs then the pedigree is not pure working, and has been at least partially influenced by show lines which isn't necessarily a negative thing but it's important to know so you don't get lost and have a clearer picture of what you might be getting.

The 5 that you mentioned Diamante Nero, Citone, Grande Vinko, Rio Bianco, Sant Kreal are all showlines, some are closer to working show lines than the others but none are real working lines.

Probably a longer response than you wanted but hopefully will get you started on your research and understanding how to go about it.


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Last edited by Artemis; 05-12-2020 at 01:36 PM.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 01:41 PM
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Double post because the original thread was merged into another: Catherine has signed up on DT so I'm sure she will be able to answer some questions going forward.


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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-12-2020, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
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thank you excellent response
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-17-2020, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muckersmuckers View Post
Hello, can anyone give any comments on this breeder in Quebec. Lines look good.
Purpose is Euro workable family pet with longevity if that makes sense (doesn't have to be an IPO/SCH3).

Im debating between

1) importing directly from Europe (Rio Bianco) - drawback is obtaining 4mo old instead of 10-12wk which I think is important for bond

2) Dobereich

3) schwarzer stolz (my favourite lines out of the Canadian options listed)

4) RM Doberman

Thanks in advance

Hi all, was wondering how some of the more avid researchers discern breeding lineage to determine potential of puppies. I understand there are many other influences but from a starting standpoint lets look at a few below and add more or write comments if you can. Correct me if im wrong of course

Citone - tends to be mixed into working lines

Del Rio Bianco - Tends to be in both show and working lines which is funny because the lines are really titled but yet a lot of the big working lines have his dogs in the generations back... ex. Feverhaus dogs
So how do you tell what the line was intended for ?

Grand Venko - also shows up in some working histories and is not well titled

Sant Kreal - seems to be more working line dominated

Diamante nero - both lines again not titled extensively

Now these are not including the big German lines that are extensively titled which also show up in many working programs so maybe the ones above are just quasi working line breeders although I reference Feverhaus again which seems to have many high producing dogs but the males are mostly Kreal and even some of the females.

Thanks in advance
I don't quite understand what you mean by Euro workable family pet. If you mean you want a dog who should have enough drives to attend Schutzhund club and do some protecting training once and a while, then any of the breeders listed should be ok.

If you plan on titling and competing with the dog (even if at just a club level), then I would suggest buying from someone who has actually titled dogs in the sport and not just paid someone else to title their dog or bought a titled dog. A breeder's guidance in selecting a pup for you and being a mentor as the pup ages should not be underestimated.

Regarding your points above:
1) You can import a pup (pre-covid-19 days) a lot younger from most European countries than 16 weeks.
2) I have yet to meet a Dobereich owner who was unhappy with their dog or the support from Monica at Dobereich. I know several in the GTA area who have bought several dogs from her over the past decades. Several of the owners have put BH titles on the dogs and attended working dog clubs regularly with their dogs.

The other breeders listed are all show lines but yes some of their dogs are titled in working sports. Some listed are novices in the breed and I am not familiar if they personally have titled their dogs beyond a BH level.

My advice to anyone looking at breeders is to get references, speak to the references, ask what the breeder has personally achieved and how long they have been in the breed. Some folks can really sell themselves and can talk a good game, but they just don't have the experience to guide other novices.


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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-17-2020, 03:24 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Kelsa thanks for the reply:

With respect to living as a pet but workable I sort of meant like you mentioned.
My last doberman wasn't a working line but had the drive to do whatever I wanted... and he was quite good at SCH enough where the club wanted to buy him...so ultimately I just want a dog a bit more towards a working line but not as much (in between if that makes sense) because I have no desire to compete. I just want to go through the exercises and have him excited to do it so it is fun for both of us. SCH from my experience just needs a lot of food drive, prey drive, and confidence and you can have a lot of fun with it. Sure some of the Feverhaus lines look like Malinois instead of dobermans with their drive but I don't need it to be that extreme.

You have brought up something I would like to hear more about though... this input form the breeder you mention.
I personally don't see any need for the breeder to be the one who is training the IPO dog because your club is your reference to what you should be doing since they are training/critiquing you. Yes the breeder if they have experience in tilting dogs will know more of what to look for with the pup when selecting but other than that I don know what they can offer that is imperative. Thanks again in advance
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-18-2020, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muckersmuckers View Post
Hi Kelsa thanks for the reply:

You have brought up something I would like to hear more about though... this input form the breeder you mention.
I personally don't see any need for the breeder to be the one who is training the IPO dog because your club is your reference to what you should be doing since they are training/critiquing you. Yes the breeder if they have experience in tilting dogs will know more of what to look for with the pup when selecting but other than that I don know what they can offer that is imperative. Thanks again in advance
I did not say the breeder should be the the one training the dog you purchased in IGP.

A breeder who has actually titled and competed with the mother or father of your pup or other Dobermans will give you a lot more insight on what to expect.

Having raised, trained and titled three different Doberman pups from 8 weeks to an IPO1/FH1 on the first dog, and two IPO3/IGP3 dogs before they were 3 years old on the next two, I can tell you having a breeder to give me some guidance on the genetics of the the dog was invaluable. Each of those pups came from a breeder who had put the SchH3/IPO3 on the mother themselves. Their experience helped them choose a suitable pup that suited my personality and goals. They also let me know what to expect from the dog in terms of when it will mature, which drives are expected to be stronger or weaker etc.

Now if a breeder is experienced in the breed (I don't think 5 years and owning 1 or 2 Dobermans before they start breeding is considered experienced), has previously competed or placed dogs in working homes and seen how those drives and nerve displayed in a young pup manifested as an adult, and they truly understand the requirements for the sport, then no they don't need to be titling now. Someone experienced will be selecting pups that are suitable for the work the home has in mind. For instance someone looking for service dog, another looking for IGP dog and another looking for SAR work will have some common requirements such as good structure and nerve. But the individual traits considered ideal in the puppy will be different.

A club will be teaching you how to train the dog in front of them on a given day. A good club will adjust the training to the dog's needs. But knowing what to expect from the dog in terms of when it will mature, which drives are expected to be stronger or weaker etc. is information an experienced breeder knowledgable in the lines can provide you that will assist you as the dog matures and is trained.

Training a dog is a wonderful test of the dog's ability, but competing and titling is an even bigger test. At every trial I have done, not everything goes according to plan but every single trial has taught me something more about my dog and my training. Sometimes it is a pleasant piece of information and other times it is an unfortunate lesson.

Over the years I have been very fortunate to have many great conversations with long time GSD, Malinois and Doberman breeders and handlers. All of them have emphasized that learning is never done and they watch closely how the dogs they produced, or are breeding, respond to the stress of training and trials as they mature. This information (along with health, structure, long term and short term plans etc.) helps determine future breeding decisions.


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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-18-2020, 04:48 PM
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^ I agree with everything Kelsa has said about breeders working/titling their own dogs. While handing the dog over to someone else for titles as it shows the dog can be worked and titled, in my opinion a breeder that will work their own dogs multiple times a week/every day will have much more insight in knowing the 'how' and the mechanics of their dogs, their strengths and weaknesses in temperaments, their unique personalities vs what are consistent hallmarks of their genetics.

Not everyone has the same handling style, not everyone has the same working style, so the question if one is very serious about working and competing, is not just whether the dog will work or not, but will the dog work well with YOU (not to mention the club you're a part of).


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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-19-2020, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you... you both are extremely helpful.
Kelsa, I am not sure if you are referencing any of the breeders I mentioned above when you said 1 or 2 dogs for 5 years ? Is there a breeder you would recommend against ?

I'm selecting from more "show" lines (with some workability maybe) as you guys mentioned above so I am not expecting any of the above breeders to select the best IPO3 dog... as long as it has some drive and confidence I will be fine with the rest.

To be honest I really like the anticipated mating pair in Schwarzerstolz Thea/Shtorm pair. I understand the breeder is newer but for what I am looking for I don't think its going to be detrimental... Ive seen videos of Thea doing some minor bite work and that is pretty much the type of dog I need because I have zero intention of competing to win.... just to compete for the sake of fun. When I want to compete to win ill get one from Apexe or feverhaus etc.

Please share your thoughts I appreciate all you provide
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