Deciding between 4 European breeders - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-11-2020, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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Deciding between 4 European breeders

Hey guys,

First post here - been lurking for a while researching the different breeders.

I'm currently in contact with breeders Altobello, Del Nasi, Von Dadashov and Aritaur UK about their upcoming litters - I live in Scandinavia so Eastern Europe is close and I love the look of the breeds from these kennels. I like the more "beefier" look and a stable/social temperament.

I'm aware of the discussion about Altobello breeding a lot, and selling a lot - and I'm OK with that.

I was wondering if there are any dog owners from the above mentioned breeders that could give me some insight to how good their dogs have been, or any other information that might be helpful in deciding on where to get my puppy. Any other suggestions on great European breeders is also welcome!

The litters from Altobello and Del Nasi:
1. Hazar di Altobello X Weronica di Altobello
2. Eutay Del Nasi x Diva Del Nasi


Thanks in advance!
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-11-2020, 12:31 PM
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Wherever you decide to buy from you need to INSIST on seeing current health testing results on the sire and dam most importantly for cardiac health.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-11-2020, 02:19 PM
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Have you given a brutal Dragons any thought?
Nina the owner is extremely vigilant on health.

We got Axel from Nina.....the breeding (Loris Land kennel) was chosen by Nina with a view to having first choice of male puppies. She chose Axel but quickly realised that he wasn’t cut out for kennel life and needed a family home.....that’s how he ended up with us.

Anyway, Nina owns Axels uncle, Libero Diamond Stamm who is an amazing chunky dog. Axel gets his looks from his mum Lora Diamond Stamm, and as you can see that blood line is nice!

I would thoroughly recommend Brutal Dragons




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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-13-2020, 04:51 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Louise & Aron, thanks for the tip! Your dobe looks amazing - I'll check out Brutal Dragons for sure, they are located in Croatia right? I found their Facebook but not any website or instagram, I'm guessing they reply on Facebook though?

Thanks again
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcSteve View Post
Hi Louise & Aron, thanks for the tip! Your dobe looks amazing - I'll check out Brutal Dragons for sure, they are located in Croatia right? I found their Facebook but not any website or instagram, I'm guessing they reply on Facebook though?

Thanks again

They have an Instagram page, but yes you are right Nina will respond on Facebook
Yeah they are in Croatia but Nina has sent puppies all over the World so knows what is required and will share all the info with you.
Mari has set up a thread somewhere on here.....she is getting a puppy from Nina sent to Hawaii


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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 07:18 AM
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You have some excellent breeders across Scandinavia, so why don't you contact them? One place you might look is, https://www.working-dog.com/breed/ov...Name=&country=
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 11:16 AM
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It would also be good to know if you are seeking a cropped and docked dog, all natural, or indifferent.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
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It would also be good to know if you are seeking a cropped and docked dog, all natural, or indifferent.
I've never seen an indifferent doberman. Or would that be one of those where the ears have gone all wonky and are neither up nor down??

(but I know exactly what you meant--good question. It is a need-to-know for us to be able to recommend the right dobe places in Europe for the OP.)
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 05:08 PM
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I've never seen an indifferent doberman. Or would that be one of those where the ears have gone all wonky and are neither up nor down??

(but I know exactly what you meant--good question. It is a need-to-know for us to be able to recommend the right dobe places in Europe for the OP.)
I clearly meant flying nun ears
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-24-2020, 04:40 AM
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Arituar in the UK are well known for breeding very healthy dogs. 10 minutes on Google should pull up enough info on them. I've nothing to do with them but have considered getting a puppy of them next year.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-24-2020, 02:03 AM
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Stay away from Altobello! A couple of years ago I imported my Dobermann (Blackjack Bluffer x Casablanca) from Dejan at Altobello. She arrived to the US with urinary incontinence, we discovered later was due to a pelvic bladder and widened urethra. She also suffered from demodectic mange where she lost patches of hair all over her body. She was sick all the time with pneumonia, conjunctivitis, vaginitis, etc. At 9 months old, she had a closed pyometra which cost us $4,000. Her urinary incontinence required yet another surgery of $3,800. After surgeries and medications failed, we had to put her down at just under 2 years old. I absorbed all the costs and Dejan offered me no new puppy, no discounted puppy, no offer to fly her back, and no refund. He told me she was healthy when he sent her, insinuating that I had caused these problems. Stay in the US, you can actually get support from a local breeder. I know their dogs are beautiful, but save yourself the heartache and go anywhere else!!
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-01-2020, 01:23 AM
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I trained with the Norwegians at the World Championships in Slovakia in 2014. Ingar Anderson only is into working lines, but his partner at on the Norwegian team had a Show line dog that was quite outstanding as far as conformation and pretty decent nerve and working ability. Personally I would steer away from the Eastern Euro show lines unless you are wanting heartbreak down the road with health issues.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-03-2020, 12:47 AM
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https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-det...e-Grande-Vinko

This is the dog I was thinking of. Sort of a mix of Eastern Euro and Western Euro show lines. Not my thing but was a pretty nice dog.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-16-2020, 01:46 PM
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Most breeders in the US who advertise European Dobermans normally mate a dam from American lines with sire from overseas and call the litter European Dobermans. Only breeders who strictly follow the German standard for breeding can correctly claim to breed true European dobermans. German rules are that only parents where both sire and dam have individually acquired a schutzhund or an IPO tile are allowed to breed. These rules apply to German Shepherds as well. It is estimated that ca. 10% of the dogs have what it takes in terms mental and physical makeup to get a schutzhund-1 title whereas only ca. 3% can get a schutzhund-3 title. These rules have been made to preserve and improve the characteristics of the breed over time. So if you are looking for a true European Doberman with working dog characteristics, find a breeder where both parents have a schutzhund title (preferrably schutzhund-3). Don't get too impressed with dubious Eastern European champion titles, they don't mean very much.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-17-2020, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
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only parents where both sire and dam have individually acquired a schutzhund or an IPO tile are allowed to breed. These rules apply to German Shepherds as well. It is estimated that ca. 10% of the dogs have what it takes in terms mental and physical makeup to get a schutzhund-1 title whereas only ca. 3% can get a schutzhund-3 title. These rules have been made to preserve and improve the characteristics of the breed over time.
It also seriously diminishes the gene pool and diversity in a huge way.

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-17-2020, 02:43 PM
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Most breeders in the US who advertise European Dobermans normally mate a dam from American lines with sire from overseas and call the litter European Dobermans. Only breeders who strictly follow the German standard for breeding can correctly claim to breed true European dobermans. German rules are that only parents where both sire and dam have individually acquired a schutzhund or an IPO tile are allowed to breed. These rules apply to German Shepherds as well. It is estimated that ca. 10% of the dogs have what it takes in terms mental and physical makeup to get a schutzhund-1 title whereas only ca. 3% can get a schutzhund-3 title. These rules have been made to preserve and improve the characteristics of the breed over time. So if you are looking for a true European Doberman with working dog characteristics, find a breeder where both parents have a schutzhund title (preferrably schutzhund-3). Don't get too impressed with dubious Eastern European champion titles, they don't mean very much.
I think you are way off base by claiming that, "Only breeders who strictly follow the German standard for breeding can correctly claim to breed true European dobermans." The breeding rules vary from country to country. Also, I think you need to research the DV breeding rues a little more carefully. They do not necessarily have to have an IPO/IGP title, but must have a ZTP.

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-17-2020, 07:05 PM
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It is correct that a ZTP test, which applies to any breed, is basically to confirm that a dog is healthy enough for breeding. It is also quite a bit less challenging an a SchH title. I might also add that a US ZTP title is not recognized in Germany and several other European countries due to less demanding testing. In Germany, a breeding sutability test (ZTP) is the first requirement for breeding; however, to reach a full breeding status and become eligible to win a championship title, Sieger for males and Siegerin for female at dog shows, the Dobermann must also possess a schutzhund title. In addition, prior to any test for a Schutzhund tile the dog must must have achieved a BH (Begleitshund) title.
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-18-2020, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
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It is correct that a ZTP test, which applies to any breed, is basically to confirm that a dog is healthy enough for breeding. It is also quite a bit less challenging an a SchH title. I might also add that a US ZTP title is not recognized in Germany and several other European countries due to less demanding testing. In Germany, a breeding sutability test (ZTP) is the first requirement for breeding; however, to reach a full breeding status and become eligible to win a championship title, Sieger for males and Siegerin for female at dog shows, the Dobermann must also possess a schutzhund title. In addition, prior to any test for a Schutzhund tile the dog must must have achieved a BH (Begleitshund) title.
I think you have a lot to learn before you dispense advice to others that may think your are knowledgeable. Please do your home work and seek the advice of more experienced individuals.

Good day.

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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-18-2020, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkollen View Post
It is correct that a ZTP test, which applies to any breed, is basically to confirm that a dog is healthy enough for breeding. It is also quite a bit less challenging an a SchH title. I might also add that a US ZTP title is not recognized in Germany and several other European countries due to less demanding testing. In Germany, a breeding sutability test (ZTP) is the first requirement for breeding; however, to reach a full breeding status and become eligible to win a championship title, Sieger for males and Siegerin for female at dog shows, the Dobermann must also possess a schutzhund title. In addition, prior to any test for a Schutzhund tile the dog must must have achieved a BH (Begleitshund) title.
Here we have a person who sound like they know what they are talking about, but anyone with a modicum of knowledge on the subject can tell they are farting in the wind.
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-18-2020, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
It also seriously diminishes the gene pool and diversity in a huge way.
This is really becoming a huge concern, when you look at the average COI in our breed.


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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-18-2020, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
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This is really becoming a huge concern, when you look at the average COI in our breed.
And the diversity indexes.
As a matter of fact there is already a measurable impact on the breed in Germany. Increase in number of stillborn pups, decrease in live births overall, decrease in popularity, increase in incidents of dentition issues, faults that were uncommon before becoming increasingly common. Signs of inbreeding depression looming large. And the German breeders are forced back into a corner because the DV rules make it incredibly difficult for them to use dogs from outside Germany or even preserve diversity in their own lines. For example now restricting the amount of vWD breeding options, with the majority having to be Clear to Clear. Or only breeding non-dilute carriers to non-dilute carriers.
Now with the introduction of PDK4 and TTN gene tests, only breeding clear to clear, since they started using Embark in 2017-2018, again we've seen a decrease in live birth and increase in issues.

There were in 2018 several hundreds less live births in Germany (less than 500) the breed's homeland than Canada (nearly 700) that has half the human population Germany does and doesn't exactly have the best weather for the breed.

The UK and France by comparison registered 1000s of live births, and the East Europeans are practically mass producers in comparison, for better or for worse.


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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-18-2020, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
And the diversity indexes.
As a matter of fact there is already a measurable impact on the breed in Germany. Increase in number of stillborn pups, decrease in live births overall, decrease in popularity, increase in incidents of dentition issues, faults that were uncommon before becoming increasingly common. Signs of inbreeding depression looming large. And the German breeders are forced back into a corner because the DV rules make it incredibly difficult for them to use dogs from outside Germany or even preserve diversity in their own lines. For example now restricting the amount of vWD breeding options, with the majority having to be Clear to Clear. Or only breeding non-dilute carriers to non-dilute carriers.
Now with the introduction of PDK4 and TTN gene tests, only breeding clear to clear, since they started using Embark in 2017-2018, again we've seen a decrease in live birth and increase in issues.

There were in 2018 several hundreds less live births in Germany (less than 500) the breed's homeland than Canada (nearly 700) that has half the human population Germany does and doesn't exactly have the best weather for the breed.

The UK and France by comparison registered 1000s of live births, and the East Europeans are practically mass producers in comparison, for better or for worse.
Those numbers are very interesting, only for scientific curiosity, could you tell me the sources or where I can find those data? I'd like to read more about it and the developmental or genetic reasons for that increase in stillborn puppies. Again it is only my scientific curiosity (I'm MSc and PhD candidate in biological science), not mean to question or anything.

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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-20-2020, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by tkollen View Post
It is correct that a ZTP test, which applies to any breed, is basically to confirm that a dog is healthy enough for breeding. It is also quite a bit less challenging an a SchH title. I might also add that a US ZTP title is not recognized in Germany and several other European countries due to less demanding testing. In Germany, a breeding sutability test (ZTP) is the first requirement for breeding; however, to reach a full breeding status and become eligible to win a championship title, Sieger for males and Siegerin for female at dog shows, the Dobermann must also possess a schutzhund title. In addition, prior to any test for a Schutzhund tile the dog must must have achieved a BH (Begleitshund) title.
I have taken part in the DV ZTP with Hara, and watched a number of them under DV judges when the ADA was functioning here. I also participated with Cairo in the UDC version of the ZTP. Really not much difference. A lot of video I have seen of overseas of dogs passing a ZTP were a sham IMO. Also I believe in Germany a dog can be bred with only a ZTP, but I think one of the dogs in the breeding has to have the equivalent of the IPO1.
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